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#841654 03/02/21 6:44 pm
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Hello all,
my name is Ulrich Hoffmann from Ravensburg, Germany.

My latest addition to my stable is a 1969 Triumph Trident, built in February 1969.
She will find her palce beneath a 1970 Norton Commando "S",
a 1960 Norton Navigator 350 cc and a 1973 BMW R75/5

I bought it partially dismantled. Engine is out of the frame, some parts were missing like
the front mudguard, varoius bolts and screws. Most of the missing parts are already ordered.
Someone started a restoration back in 1995 and the egine is already overhauled ( with receipts
and many new parts. We looked inside the bores and found virgin oistons with the sizes still written
on them. The engine will be ice- blasted to get rid of the corrosion.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Luckily rubber cockpit was in the parts

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

When I bought it the seller gave me the "breadbin" tank an only one matching side panel.
The left one was missing and currently unobtainable.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

So I swapped the tanks for a teardrop one á la
American beauty kit and the smaller side covers. The tank is not correct for the triple frame.
The rear mounting hole does not line up with the hole in the frame ( also the rear lug on the breadbin
tank did´nt)

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

My question is now how did the original beauty kit tank look? Did they make an extra version for the T150?
I have a 5cm gap between the tank and the seat. Somewhere I found an offer for an American T 150 seat.
Is that seat different to the english version?

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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
how did the original beauty kit tank look? Did they make an extra version for the T150?
The tank is basically the shell of the TR6R tank (officially 16 litres but really more like 17 litres thumbsup ). however, the tank base does not have the 'cutouts' for the ignition coils; the rear mounting is longer than a twin's because the triple's frame loop is longer than a twin's. As far as I know, the tank's front mounting studs spacing is the same as the twins', different from the "breadbin tank"; for this reason, the 'beauty kit' and all following US-market T150's mounted the front of the tank and the oil cooler on a special combined bracket that bolts to the two lugs at the front of the frame tube just above the engine, the part number of this bracket is 83-2024.

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
5cm gap between the tank and the seat.
American T 150 seat
Is that seat different to the english version?
Yes, the cushion is longer than the "english version", to fill the gap to the back of the 'beauty kit' tank.

I cannot post photos. here. I will send you a private message; if no-one else posts photos., if you reply to my PM with your email address, I will send you photos. and dimensions of my T150's tank.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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Hi Uli,
Welcome to Britbike and welcome to the triples board.
Looks as though you have an interesting project there.

Confirming what Stuart has said---the 1969 model had the so called "breadbin" gas tank.
Due to demand in US for a more traditional Triumph gas tank the beauty kits and 1971 US market models were fitted with a tear drop gas tank.
This was shorter than the breadbin tank so to avoid the gap between tank and seat that you have observed the seat for these models was made longer.
The original seat for the breadbin tank is part number F9523 (82-9523) whereas the seat for the 1971 US market model is F12039 (83-2039).

Incidentally in your photo the "breadbin" tank does not look like a genuine breadbin tank to me..
Rather it looks like a gas tank for a UK/European market twin.

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Originally Posted by Tridentman
Incidentally in your photo the "breadbin" tank does not look like a genuine breadbin tank to me..
Rather it looks like a gas tank for a UK/European market twin.

It's not a UK/Gen. export twin tank.
The teardrop tank in the photo is from a Triumph twin (wrong 'mouth organ' badges, wrong fuel tap location for a T150 tank).

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Thanks guys for all the infos. Firstly I will get the thing together and look for missing parts and the see how she runs.
I am already waiting for a delivery of all the engine mounting studs and other stuff from Austria.
I will also have a look at engine upgrades. the engine was done some 26 years ago, still has points ignition.
Will put in an electronic ignition. What is the best choice? Boyer-Pazon-Sachse-Trispark?

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Hi Uli,
Stuart cannot post photos here so he has asked me to post the photos of his tank.
His accompanying note is as below:

Hi Uli,

The two front studs are 127 mm. (5 inches) centre to centre

From the centre of the rear mounting, the centre of each front stud is 495 mm. (19.5 inches).

Best regards,

Stuart

HTH

Tridentman

Stuarts T150 Tank 1.JPG (55.28 KB, 398 downloads)
Stuarts T150 Tank 2.JPG (76.73 KB, 395 downloads)
Stuarts T150 Tank 3.JPG (47.27 KB, 393 downloads)
Stuarts T150 Tank 4.JPG (51.35 KB, 393 downloads)
Stuarts T150 Tank 5.JPG (54.82 KB, 394 downloads)
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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
Will put in an electronic ignition. What is the best choice? Boyer-Pazon-Sachse-Trispark?
I think probably Sachse or Tri-Spark, that do not need the three ignition coils connected in series? Many triple owners happy with Tri-Spark. If you use the Forum Search, also owners of several different types of engine happy with Sachse, and several happy Sachse owners on Triples On Line ... smile

For Boyer-Bransden, https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/841453/wet-sump-start-up#Post841453 indicates '4V' coils are difficult to buy at present. Many triple owners use Boyer-Bransden with '6V' coils but the thread indicates some experience problems ...

Pazon list their Altair with three 3V coils for triples (scroll down the webpage) but it is currently "Sold Out"; whether this is temporary or they cannot obtain the PVL 3V coils, I do not know. frown

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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I got my US seat from Burton's. Nicely made, and a good price, though I don't know what the exchange rate is to Euros.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
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I've had great service from Andrew over at Leightons, à real gentleman.

http://www.rk-leighton.co.uk/


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
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Thanks for the links with the seats. I have a new seat cover nut the foam is gone.
Everytime I fit the seat the rear end is covered with yello particles crumbling out of the seat.
What was also in the parts pile is the rear grab rail without upper rail.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Is this from a T150? ? Many pictures shows different grab rails.This one is on the heavy side.

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+1 for Andrew Leighton.
He is the son of the founder of the company..
Leightons made the seats for the factory "back in the day".
What Andrew does not know about seats is not worth knowing.
If you call him they are happy to supply direct from the factory.
I think they will also sell you the foam separately.
Certainly after 45+ years the foam is not in the best of shapes.
HTH

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I recently had an exchange with him and he does have t150 and t160 foams in stock. Shippings a tad pricey because of the bulk though.


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
rear grab rail

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Is this from a T150?
I regret not. frown

The rear lamp mounting is for a '68-'70 twin, it was only used on the '70 T150; specifically the '69 T150's rear lamp mounting did not have the "cutaway" in the top front edge, because the '69 T150 grabrail did not have the tube around the rear mudguard.

The side pieces on the grabrail are from a US accessory; I believe they allowed a passenger grabrail and a rack to be interchanged?

I have an idea what the grabrail is from but I would need to see a photograph with one of the US accessory pieces removed?

The mudguard is also for a twin; generally, T150's did not have chromed (or stainless steel) mudguards before '73 (except possibly in specific markets like Canada?). Check the mudguard beside the oil tank; if it is for a twin, it might touch the oil tank. frown

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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Thank you Stuart for the clarification!

The bike came from the USA and was imported to Germany as a non runner for 200.-$ back in 1991 !
I will dismantle the grabrail and will send more pics.

I know the mudguard is not original but will keep it. I bought a front chromed one but ordered a wrong bottom stays.
It had only one mounting bracket for the mudguard on the loop and I need two.

Two short front stays came with the sparts but one is to short and does reach down into the mounting bracket.
Tires too big? (need to be changed anyway-rock hard after 25 years)

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Yesterday I loaded up the engine and brought it to an ice-blaster.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

at least he is wearing ear protection! Loud as a jet fighter!

Engine looks better now but the light corrosion on the fins etc could not be removed with this method.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
mudguard
I bought a front chromed one but ordered a wrong bottom stays.
It had only one mounting bracket for the mudguard on the loop and I need two.
Part H3886 (97-3886).

In the 2nd edition of the '69 T150 parts book, there are two parts numbers - "H3885" with "Later models" in the "REMARKS" column, this has two mounting brackets ... but is painted black ... H3886 is the chromed version. smile

The reason for the change is the single mounting bracket caused a problem for TR6C's and T100C's being used for off-road racing - if the single mounting bolt became loose and fell out, if the front wheel left the ground, when it descended again, the loose bottom stay could hit the ground before the wheel ... eek Triumph modified the front mudguards and bottom stays during 1969, the reason it is included in the 2nd edition of the 1969 parts book.

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
Two short front stays came with the sparts but one is to short and does reach down into the mounting bracket.
The stay is possibly not for a triple/650/500 (they all used the same stay, just either chromed or black-painted). Or it is poorly-made pattern part (very common frown ).

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
Tires too big?
Early T150's were fitted with the same 3.25x19 Dunlop K70 on the front as the contemporary US-market 650's and 500's, with a 4.10x19 K81 TT100 only on the rear. However, it was soon found that triples (T150 and BSA Rocket 3) handled better with another TT100 on the front, and they were fitted as original equipment from sometime during 1969. In any event, the K70 is only "S" rated, I think your TuV inspector will prefer to see a H-rated TT100 on the front? grin

3.25 K70 and 4.10 TT100 have a very similar overall diameter but the TT100 has a greater overall width; to remove or refit the front wheel on my T150, I have to either deflate the tyre or remove the mudguard and mounting brackets ... frown Or many owners fitted the smaller 3.60x19 TT100? However, unfortunately, looking from the side of the bike, daylight is usually visible between the mudguard and the smaller tyre. frown

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
ice-blaster.
Engine looks better now but the light corrosion on the fins etc could not be removed with this method.
Engine is 52 years old - allowed a few scars and wrinkles? smile

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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Today I shoehorned the engine into the frame.
The engine stand had removeable brackets on the right side so I could slide the engine towards the frame over the plank.
I had to remove the rockerboxes and carburettors to get more clearance.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The guys from the engine shop back in the days noted the rocker clearances in millimeters in the boxes!
So I don´t have to consult the workshop Manual when I install them!
I found mushroom head tappet adjusters on the rocker arms!
The engine was rebuild by Mike Krauser in Munich- the one with the Krauser panniers for BMW motorcycles.
He also offered a 4-valve conversion for the old boxer engines from the seventies/eighties.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I do not like the fixing studs for the intakes.They are too long. I will replace them with allen head bolts.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I supported the engine in the frame with a hydraulic car jack to pull out the plank an lower it to the mounting points.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Here is a mockup just for the looks:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I cannot use this tank because the petrol taps hit the carburettor mechansim.
I look for another original T150 teardrop tank.

There are many offers from India but I know that these tabks look better in the adds than in real life.
Any expiriences with those tanks?

@ Stuart:

Some additional pics of the rear grabrail:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
The guys from the engine shop back in the days noted the rocker clearances in millimeters in the boxes!
The engine was rebuild by Mike Krauser
I suspect the clearances were written by whoever rebuilt the engine ... smile They equate to 0.006 inches inlet and 0.008 inches exhaust but some owners follow the advice of engine designer Doug Hele to use 0.008 inlet and 0.010 exhaust.

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
I do not like the fixing studs for the intakes.They are too long. I will replace them with allen head bolts.
Firstly here, does each inlet stub have the correct-thickness E8981 heat insulating spacer and an E8784 gasket each side of the spacer? Their total thickness should be about 5 mm.

Also be aware the E9060 "Rubber sleeve" material has variable thickness; thicker material, Allen-head bolts can prevent "sleeve" and "Jubilee clip" fitting properly; I use narrower stainless steel worm-drive clips on my triples.

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
I look for another original T150 teardrop tank.
There are many offers from India but I know that these tabks look better in the adds than in real life.
Do any Indian sellers make specifically a US-market T150 tank? If "pummy.8081" continues to sell on Ebay, he had a good reputation. But he might be rich and retired by now. smile

Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
rear grabrail
It is not as I suspected before, it is a complete accessory grabrail, not made by Triumph. One by the same maker came fitted to a bike I bought in the 1990's, it is poorly-designed and chromed - where the tube is welded to the flat plate, it is not chromed well and it is a dirt trap; it is difficult to prevent it rusting and difficult to clean when it does. frown ).

The standard Triumph grabrails that are easiest to obtain are all-chrome 83-4814 (fitted originally to some '70 twins and then '73-'76 (end of T160 production)) and 83-1571 - mainly black but with a chromed pillion 'hoop' - fitted originally to some twins and T150's in '70.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Uli,
I suspect the clearances were written by whoever rebuilt the engine ... smile They equate to 0.006 inches inlet and 0.008 inches exhaust but some owners follow the advice of engine designer Doug Hele to use 0.008 inlet and 0.010 exhaust.

But they installed no rockerbox gasket! Only a smear of red sealer!


Originally Posted by Stuart
Firstly here, does each inlet stub have the correct-thickness E8981 heat insulating spacer and an E8784 gasket each side of the spacer? Their total thickness should be about 5 mm.

l will have a look into that but I think I only saw one insulating spacer and no extra gaskets.

Again thanks for all the tips!

Uli

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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
they installed no rockerbox gasket! Only a smear of red sealer!
Not necessarily a bad thing. Due to the design and clearances, the rocker-boxes 'shuffle' around, the gasket is often pushed out, causing a leak and needing dismantling to fit a new gasket. frown For example, "DMadigan" Dave's remedy is to fit dowels between the rocker-boxes and head (Meriden did similar to '71-on 650's).

When the gasket is omitted, the two more-important things are:-

. rocker travel is checked to ensure the adjuster is in line with the valve stem at half-travel;

. if standard pushrod tube seals were used, they were not crushed more than approximately 0.03~0.04 inches when the head is torqued;

... because Mike Krauser put his name to the engine rebuild, I am guessing these things were checked. cool

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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Sorting some things out in my workshop today with the doors open (first time since late last year).
I took the sheet off my 1969 Trident and thought that I would take a couple of photos of the rear light and guard.
The bike is a matching numbers 1969 (DC) but when I bought it it had been "updated" to look like a 1971.
Over the course of several years I have brought it back to 69 spec using genuine 69 components.
So although it is not strictly "original" it is as near original as I can make it.
HTH

1969 T150 Rear Light and Guard 1.jpg (52.72 KB, 157 downloads)
1969 T150 Rear Light and Guard 2.jpg (56.72 KB, 156 downloads)
1969 T150 Rear Light and Guard 3.jpg (47.56 KB, 157 downloads)
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Hi Richard,

Thanks for that. thumbsup That '69 rear lamp mounting is all-round much bigger than the one fitted to other contemporary Triumphs ...

Regards,

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I see the different rear light and grabrail.
Meanwhile a member from a german brit bike forum offered me an original aquamarin breadbin tank
with matching side covers and a pair of aftermarked rayguns... MMMH?

Last edited by Uli Hoffmann; 03/09/21 5:23 pm.
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Hi Uli,
Originally Posted by Uli Hoffmann
I see the different rear light and grabrail.
If you enter a part number I posted with "triumph" (for example, "triumph 83-4814") into the internet search engine you use, it will return images of the part and links to sellers.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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When I was faced with the job of getting my 69 Trident back to 69 spec I needed a breadbin gas tank (aquamarine), exttended aquamarine side covers, raygun mufflers and front and rear fenders. quite a formidable task!
However i was talking with a friend in south NJ and he said "Oh -- I have some of that stuff"
Turns out that in 1969/70 ish when the beauty kits were introduced in US there were a lot of beauty kit take offs left surplus.
Regrettably a lot were trashed but a certain dealer in NJ just put them at the back of a shelf and there they stayed for 40+ years!
When the dealer retired he sold off a lot of stuff and my friend bought a gas tank, a pair of side covers and a pair of rayguns.
I told my friend that I was interested in buying these items from him and he said "Sure".
I asked how much he wanted for them and he told me that I had helped him out on many occasions so I could have them for what he had paid for them-- $60!
I was then left with the problem of getting fenders.
It took me about 18 months to find a pair but I learnt that a guy in Chicago was selling a pair.
Turns out that the seller was clearing out his fathers garage--the father having recently passed away.
The father had bought a 69 new in 69 but in 1970 decided to make a cafe racer out of it so had removed the original fenders and put them on a shelf at the back of his garage.
The two fenders cost me $800 plus shipping but overall --you win some and you lose some.
This Trident incidentally won first prize in its class at the 2019 Triumph National Rally in Oley, PA.
Why have I written all of the above?
To try to persuade Uli to take up the offer from his fellow countryman --- to buy the tank, side covers and rayguns and build the bike back to 69 spec.
I certainly enjoyed doing mine!

Last edited by Tridentman; 03/09/21 7:13 pm.
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Well Stuart,
definitly no insulation gasket!

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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