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DavidP Offline OP
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Not hash marks, as on most American bolts. The only similar markings I can find in a search are numbers on certain metric bolts. I really wonder who would've made a bolt with British threads and unified heads? The first time I removed the head I didn't think twice about it, everybody "knows" that they went unified in '69. laughing
I'm not doing anything until it gets to at least 40 degrees in my shop. It's in the teens now.


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The head bolts never went unified on the a65's.
Chances are someone has just run a die down a cut off 3/8 unified bolt.
Or put it in a lathe and threaded it BSF.
Triumphs did not change for a while as well, use up existing stocks etc.

The OEM bolts are grade 8 that would mean 6 lines on the head in later terms
3 lines = grade 5.

https://www.fastenerdata.co.uk/fastener-grades#ugrade

Last edited by NickL; 02/17/21 7:48 am.
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Nick L recons :

buy either grade 8 or allen bolts (grade 12 or 14) easily

grade 12 cap screws are excellent material .........very high tensile , but still machine able / tap able , (just) best to power tap the sods though , probably 4140 grade .....i often buy a few realy long cap screws with a short thread as they are a very cost effective way of getting just a few inches of good grade material without having to go to a steel merchant who will want to sell you a 3.6 meter bar minimum!

if you get them with a UNF thread, or even metric fine series and tap them to what ever size you need you have made a top of the line thread insert , retap the offending hole using a 2nd cut or taper tap and wind then in as hard as you can the hack them off with a hacksaw , file them flush and you have a forever repair ! done that countless times

oh and by the way .......when tapping high tensiles always go .0,1-.0.2 mm above the drilling size (much more on large diameters ) , depending on pitch and diameter , 80% thread is plenty on that stuff and you wont get so many busted taps

Last edited by Ignoramus; 02/18/21 5:17 pm.

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Recoil inserts are now installed with red Loctite to make sure they don't move.


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Originally Posted by DavidP
Recoil inserts are now installed with red Loctite to make sure they don't move.

This is what I do. Just run a tap down them just to make sure none of the locktite has oozed through the wire and blocking the internally threaded area.


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Helicoil has been used in Aircraft engines for at least 70 years or so (aircraft is my trade, for 40 years) they are used in some new construction and are approved as a repair in most situations. I've never seen a properly install Helicoil fail. Recoil appears to be the same. BUT, as noted, the length of the coil can be critical. for instance, BMW oilheads (and some airheads) have very high head bolt torques that are right on the verge of pulling threads in the aluminum. it's a common repair on those bikes. but it only works with the long coils, the standard short coils tend to pull out

Last edited by Mitch; 02/19/21 8:30 am.
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I believe ARP makes a bolt kit for our engines. You have to go on their web sight to check it.

Yes helicoils. Use to machine electrical chassises for Raytheon. The main mounting holes where all helicoiled.

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Well, the recoils are in place. The problem is that I can't thread the bolts in far enough. The coils which come with the kit are 1.5d (0.56"), but the head bolts need to thread in at least 3/4". They bind as soon as they get to the end of the coil (yes, I broke off the tangs.) A 3/8" BSF tap behaves the same way. Only thing I can think of at this point is to remove the two I've installed and either get some 2d coils, which are hard to find and cost almost as much as the whole kit. Or install new 1.5d coils about 1/4" below the top of the hole.


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I know you dislike me commenting but i think that either the helicoil tap
wasn't run down far enough and the coils are tapering in at the lower end
or there is some swarf etc or maybe broken threads in the holes.
The BSF tap should go down it's full length on the cylinder, a good inch or
more. Are you sure you were using a plug type tap?
I'm only trying to help btw, not have a pop at you.

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Originally Posted by NickL
I know you dislike me commenting but i think that either the helicoil tap
wasn't run down far enough and the coils are tapering in at the lower end
or there is some swarf etc or maybe broken threads in the holes.
The BSF tap should go down it's full length on the cylinder, a good inch or
more. Are you sure you were using a plug type tap?
I'm only trying to help btw, not have a pop at you.

Plus 1, it sounds like the original threads were only cleared out deep enough to suit the helicoils. So your getting to the bottom the. Hitting another thread, maybe.

As per Nicks suggestion, take the coil out and thread the tap deeper, then reseat the coil. I like to set the coils just below the surface, never flush.


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Hi All,
A problem I have come across when fitting some fine thread inserts is that when snapping off the tang the bottom coil jumps a thread
so preventing the bolt threading through the insert, This can be hard to see at times
If it happens I weaken the insert break off point some more and this sorts the issue

John

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Good advice all. The bottom coil of the one which I managed to extract did appear to have been pushed away from the wall. I ran the tap further into the hole and will try again. The two coils I put in were recessed below the top by maybe an 1/8".
The real problem is that the drill bit starts chattering once it gets close to the bottom of the hole.
The only other coil on this engine is for one of the rocker cover studs, and that doesn't need to be so long.

Nick, I appreciate your comments and knowledge of these bikes. I'm just confused by your undying allegiance to this brand. I've had this bike since I joined this forum and I still don't see the attraction.


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Originally Posted by DavidP
I've had this bike since I joined this forum and I still don't see the attraction.


you know what they say, get rid of the things that dont make you happy.


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Maybe you should have used a solid insert.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Maybe you should have used a solid insert.

Nothing wrong with the helicoils, and if the thread wasn’t cleared deep enough for the bolt then the problem would still exist.


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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Maybe you should have used a solid insert.
That was my first inclination, though they are not available in BSF. I could probably find a UNF bolt in 3 1/2" length too, just in case.
Originally Posted by Allan G
Originally Posted by DavidP
I've had this bike since I joined this forum and I still don't see the attraction.
you know what they say, get rid of the things that dont make you happy.
I'll try to, but I think a running bike might bring a bit more money. I need the space.


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With a threaded tube you do not have the problem of the wire jumping when breaking off the tang.
What you probably know already, I would have made one. If a BSF insert tap was not available then thread the outside of the tube for a Heli-coil and the inside to 3/8" BSF.

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David, forgive me if this is too obvious a question, but did you use a "bottom tap" (square on the end, not tapered)?

In the interest of a "quick and dirty" fix, for a bike that you plan to get rid of, how much of the bolt would you have to cut off to make it work? There's about an inch of thread, losing 1/8" or even 1/4" would not be disastrous, I think.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
David, forgive me if this is too obvious a question, but did you use a "bottom tap" (square on the end, not tapered)?
The tap which came with the Recoil kit is a bottom tap. The 3/8" BSF tap I have is tapered.
In any case, I have reinserted a new coil in the one hole after drilling and taping deeper. I worried the tang a bit with some long nosed tech pliers before breaking it off. The bolt gave a little resistance at the bottom of the coil but goes all the way in now.
I'll need to remove and redo one other coil and be more thorough when I drill and tap the other two holes. The threads in the center hole are still good.
What scared me the first time is that once the bit gets about 3/4" in it starts to chatter. I only have a bench-top drill press with C-clamps to hold the work in place.


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Originally Posted by DavidP
Good advice all. The bottom coil of the one which I managed to extract did appear to have been pushed away from the wall. I ran the tap further into the hole and will try again. The two coils I put in were recessed below the top by maybe an 1/8".
The real problem is that the drill bit starts chattering once it gets close to the bottom of the hole.
The only other coil on this engine is for one of the rocker cover studs, and that doesn't need to be so long.

Nick, I appreciate your comments and knowledge of these bikes. I'm just confused by your undying allegiance to this brand. I've had this bike since I joined this forum and I still don't see the attraction.


Well David, i suppose it's just that the beezers seem to stand the thrashing and abuse that i give 'em
without all the fuss that triumphs seem to demand. I know they are not as pretty but i've owned both for
a long time and the maintenance on the triumph must amount to maybe 2 or 3 times the hours. Plus 2
or 3 times the vibes, rattles and oil leaks.
My t120 will go this year, i'll hang on to the t'bolt and maybe get a new enfield twin.

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Nick, I've found it to be just the opposite, though I've only owned the one A65 and my first Triumph was a T150V.
I can set all six valves on my Trident in less time than it takes to remove the rocker cover from my OIF A65. And don't get me started on how much less trouble it is to get into the gearbox on a Triumph, or how much y'all spend to make the crank get enough oil.
There's good and bad in all of them. I always dreamed of designing an engine with the good ideas from all of them.
BTW: I haven't noticed much difference in the vibration between the two twins. I have noticed that the lamps don't last very long on the A65, Could be a balance issue, neither have been rebalanced since they left the factory and the A65 is +0.060. I really don't care for either one on the motorway.

In any case, two coils replaced and the bolts thread properly, two more to be installed.

Last edited by DavidP; 03/10/21 5:54 am. Reason: follow up

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Ah Yes , the controversy between BSA and Triumph continues

For all their faults i recon the BSA's just plain look better ...IMO teh 70 A65L in USA trim was the best ever


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Originally Posted by Ignoramus
For all their faults i recon the BSA's just plain look better ...IMO teh 70 A65L in USA trim was the best ever
I'll agree with that. Those chrome tanks are pretty. I particularly like the '72 R3.
And, though the '71 US tank looks a bit Japanese, especially with the original paint, the shape works better with the OIF side covers.
The '70 Bonneville is also considered by many to be the best ever.


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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Maybe you should have used a solid insert.
That was one of my first questions. They are only available in Unified threads and I'd already spent good money on the BSF bolts.
In any case, all four Recoils are in place. The bolts thread all the way in. I only need to lightly hone the bores and wash up.


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Originally Posted by DavidP
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
For all their faults i recon the BSA's just plain look better ...IMO teh 70 A65L in USA trim was the best ever
I'll agree with that. Those chrome tanks are pretty. I particularly like the '72 R3.
And, though the '71 US tank looks a bit Japanese, especially with the original paint, the shape works better with the OIF side covers.
The '70 Bonneville is also considered by many to be the best ever.

yeah the OIF tank does look a bit ...........and as for the indictors ?

but ya know i will have to amend my remark about the us A65L being the best ...perhaps a very close second to the 68 Rocket 3 DANG i lusted after one of those in my youth ...would call in at the bike shop on Friday nights just to look at the red one they had ....budget just wouldn't make it however


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