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#841453 02/28/21 7:14 pm
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Hi there, just getting my T160 up and running after having been stood for quite some time.
As a consequence, all of the engine oil has drained through to the sump.
My first instinct is to drain the oil and replenish via the oil tank, turn engine over with plugs removed until oil light goes out then plugs back in and fire up.

But that entails all the faff of removing the exhaust pipes in order access the sump drain plug to drain said oil.

So, what harm is there in skipping the draining the oil bit and still with plugs removed ( no stress on engine ), simply turn the engine over until oil light goes out then plugs back in and fire up ?

Regards

Steve

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SJS #841455 02/28/21 7:27 pm
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Originally Posted by SJS
As a consequence, all of the engine oil has drained through to the sump.

But that entails all the faff of removing the exhaust pipes in order access the sump drain plug to drain said oil.


Drain the primary case as with a wetsumped engine the oil overflows into the primary chaincase.

With the bike on the side stand, it should then drain about a couple of litres.

Put 350cc back in the primary and the remainder in the oil tank.

SJS #841460 02/28/21 7:55 pm
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Nice one, thanks for that, thats a job for the morning, anything to have to remove those exhausts !
As an aside, I remember someone fitting a simple on/off tap to the oil tank outlet pipe on an old Harley in order prevent wet sumping, obviously, you need to to always remember to turn it back on before you start the bike otherwise there's some serious doom and gloom potential.
It raises the question of why the valve in the oil tank doesn't hold the oil over a prolonged period of time or is that too much to expect of it ?

SJS #841464 02/28/21 8:05 pm
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Originally Posted by SJS
Nice one, thanks for that, thats a job for the morning, anything to have to remove those exhausts !

Anything not to...?

Next time you have to.
https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/triple-alloy-sump-plate-cw-drainplug-and-2-sump-gaskets-70-6580a


Originally Posted by SJS
It raises the question of why the valve in the oil tank doesn't hold the oil over a prolonged period of time or is that too much to expect of it ?

The T160 anti-drain valve is in the engine (between the oil tank pump and the filter). Some work better than others.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 02/28/21 8:22 pm.
SJS #841465 02/28/21 8:14 pm
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Yep, you spotted the typo !

I have that LP Williams assy fitted for that very reason but as it says in the description, "it prevents the removal of the exhaust system on SOME T160's" ........ unfortunately not mine !!

Why some and not others I can't imagine.
Either way, lets face it, it was an elementary design F.U
It's no wonder the Jap bikes eventually killed ours off and I say that as a confirmed Triumph devotee !

SJS #841467 02/28/21 8:59 pm
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The problem with the anti-drain valve is the way it was implemented. They drilled a 1/4" hole through to the oil pump drilling then drilled and tapped the anti-drain hole for the ball which sits on the bottom of the drilling. Two problems with that, the 1/4" hole wall is not smooth and the bottom of the tap hole is not smooth. The ball sits on the edge at the intersection of the holes so any irregularities in either hole makes a leak path for the oil.
If the bottom of the 29/64" tap hole were changed from the 118 degree to an 82 degree the ball would sit on the surface of the drilling instead of the edge of the hole.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Some people pound a spare ball into the hole to make a new seat surface.

SJS #841515 03/01/21 1:07 pm
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Great visual explanation of the problem Dave.
I suppose the ultimate answer is to ride the bike more !
Alas, a combination of a British winter and our current incarceration by our Government don't help in this respect.
But the first indications of Spring are here and lockdown or no lockdown, I'm going for ride.

A friend has an immaculate Honda CB750 of the exact same vintage as my T160, you have to acknowledge that it is technologically the far superior bike and its certainly a pretty looking machine but I wouldn't swap my T160 for it even if you do have to remove the entire exhaust system to change the oil !

SJS #841517 03/01/21 1:55 pm
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There is an oil tank anti-drain valve available but I'm not suggesting you fit one unless your T160 has an oil pressure gauge.

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/trident-anti-drain-valve-for-t160-with-3-8-fittings

SJS #841546 03/01/21 7:13 pm
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Yep, I saw that but hey, we're all up and running thanks to your draining tip.
I had to replace yet another set of NGK spark plugs that have hardly done any work.
Had either very weak or no spark on outer 2, so fitted another brand new set I had in stock, great sparks and up we fire.
I've got Boyer Ignition fitted, does that give spark plugs a harder time than standard points ignition system ?
Whats the view on the expensive Iridium plugs you can get ?

SJS #841549 03/01/21 7:29 pm
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Originally Posted by SJS
I've got Boyer Ignition fitted, does that give spark plugs a harder time than standard points ignition system ?

Assuming it's a "Boyer" Micro-MkIII or MkIV or Micro-Digital and not Micro-Power then are the (x3) coils 4V or 6V?

Originally Posted by SJS
Whats the view on the expensive Iridium plugs you can get ?

I've never used Iridium plugs so I can't comment.

SJS #841553 03/01/21 8:09 pm
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I changed from Boyer to Tri-spark on my twin, never had an issue with plug fouling since. It was an older Boyer set that was on the bike when I bought it so it may not have been in top condition.


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SJS #841563 03/01/21 8:40 pm
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I'm pretty sure mines the MK111 but defo has 6 volt coils.
I bought it brand new but then never got round to fitting until a few years later.
I've got no complaints with it, just thought that it might be putting the spark plugs under more intense use and that might have been my NGK plug issue.
Might bite the bullet and try the Iriduims, the bikes become a money pit anyway so another 50 quid is irrelevant at this stage !

SJS #841565 03/01/21 9:03 pm
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Originally Posted by SJS
Might bite the bullet and try the Iriduims, the bikes become a money pit anyway so another 50 quid is irrelevant at this stage !

Iridiums are resistor (R) plugs so if you have resistor plug caps then perhaps think about replacing them with non-resistor caps?

SJS #841579 03/01/21 10:40 pm
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All new ngk s will be resistor.


Rich
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

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Hi Rich,
Originally Posted by Richrd
All new ngk s will be resistor.
Not in GB, OP's in GB.

Hth.

Regards,

SJS #841619 03/02/21 10:11 am
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Hi,
Originally Posted by SJS
MK111 but defo has 6 volt coils.
thought that it might be putting the spark plugs under more intense use
You aren't understanding how it works.

EI is just a fancy on-off switch, nothing at all to do with how "intense" the HT is.

If the bike has 6V coils, the spark is poor already - in very simplistic terms, because the electrical system is only nominal-12V, 12V divided by three coils connected in series, each coil only has 4V across it. thumbsdown

So, if the Boyer-Bransden EI is a Mk.3, it doesn't need HT resistance, adding any will simply make an already-poor spark poorer.

Originally Posted by SJS
the bikes become a money pit anyway so another 50 quid is irrelevant at this stage !
If you're going to spend money:-

. Does the bike have a good battery? 12 Ah with B-B and, with a well-calibrated meter connected across it when the ignition's switched on, the meter indicates 12.6V?

. If yes to the battery, spend your money on three good-quality (i.e. not Wassell Lucas and similar) '4V' coils and, if the bike has separate plug caps, buy some new HT leads with the plug terminals crimped to the leads and the plastic caps that cover the joint, as originally fitted. The bike absolutely does not need any HT resistance, including that potentially between a HT lead and a separate plug cap.

. If poor carburation is also contributing to poor starting, obtain some non-resistor plugs with thin centre electrodes; e.g. NGK B8EV (gold-palladium centre electrode) B8EVX (platinum), B8EG (nickel).

Hth.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi,
Originally Posted by SJS
MK111 but defo has 6 volt coils.
thought that it might be putting the spark plugs under more intense use
You aren't understanding how it works.

EI is just a fancy on-off switch, nothing at all to do with how "intense" the HT is.

If the bike has 6V coils, the spark is poor already - in very simplistic terms, because the electrical system is only nominal-12V, 12V divided by three coils connected in series, each coil only has 4V across it. thumbsdown

So, if the Boyer-Bransden EI is a Mk.3, it doesn't need HT resistance, adding any will simply make an already-poor spark poorer.

Originally Posted by SJS
the bikes become a money pit anyway so another 50 quid is irrelevant at this stage !
If you're going to spend money:-

. Does the bike have a good battery? 12 Ah with B-B and, with a well-calibrated meter connected across it when the ignition's switched on, the meter indicates 12.6V?

. If yes to the battery, spend your money on three good-quality (i.e. not Wassell Lucas and similar) '4V' coils and, if the bike has separate plug caps, buy some new HT leads with the plug terminals crimped to the leads and the plastic caps that cover the joint, as originally fitted. The bike absolutely does not need any HT resistance, including that potentially between a HT lead and a separate plug cap.

. If poor carburation is also contributing to poor starting, obtain some non-resistor plugs with thin centre electrodes; e.g. NGK B8EV (gold-palladium centre electrode) B8EVX (platinum), B8EG (nickel).

Hth.

Regards,

I'd like to know who offers "good quality" 4 volt coils ?
Anyone in the US ?


They say every dog has his day..
Trouble is, nobody tells the dog which day it is !

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Deleted. "Out of stock" (and no longer manufactured as far as I'm aware).

Last edited by L.A.B.; 03/02/21 4:07 pm.
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Hi,
Originally Posted by Stuart
If yes to the battery, spend your money on three good-quality (i.e. not Wassell Lucas and similar) '4V' coils
Originally Posted by oilyamerican
I'd like to know who offers "good quality" 4 volt coils ?
Anyone in the US ?
Using Google, L.P. Williams have two Tri-Spark and Steadfast have sets of three, though no indication of the latter's maker.

So maybe right now you have to decide between good quality and a good spark? Or you need to set a an alert on Ebay for second-hand Lucas gold-case '4V' or specifically blue-case '6V' coils being listed?

Hth.

Regards,

SJS #841667 03/02/21 8:28 pm
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While you can buy 4volt coils from time to time from various sources (some of which are mentioned earlier in this thread) I believe that they are all (with the possible exception of PVL) made by Emgo.
I dont want to damn Boyer EIs on triples because there are many bikes running fine with these---using either 6v or 4v coils--- however my personal experience has been pretty poor with them. Last year I was trying to get a T160 running with a Boyer ignition.
I tried Boyer Mk III and Boyer Mk IV with both 6volt and 4 volt coils.
And yes-- I had a good battery and yes-- I had carefully checked out all the connections.
In the end-- as an act of desperation-- I bought a Trispark with the separate black box and three new 12 volt coils.
Connected it all up and I swear the bike fired up while my thumb was still an inch away from the starter button!
Just my two cents worth of course.

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Hi Richard,
Originally Posted by Tridentman
In the end-- as an act of desperation--
Mmmm ... I didn't like to say, I thought poor old Steve The OP had enough on his plate ... cool

Regards,

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Answering an OP previous question - points ign system fires only one spark plug for a cylinder working in this particular moment, Boyer system fires 3 spark plugs every time one of the cylinders works - hence the difference in quality of spark between them, Trispark system again fires only one spark plug for a working cylinder. There is a big difference in price between Boyer and Trispark systems, but IMHO it's worth to have a Trispark on your triple.
My Trispark system works with original set of 3 Lucas 12V coils, and still works flawlessly.

SJS #841692 03/02/21 9:49 pm
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Boyer system fires 3 spark plugs every time one of the cylinders works ---------------- In my admitted minimal knowledge of the workings of the system, this was the point I was thinking of when I queried whether the Boyer system was harder work on the plugs.

The plugs were my problem in this instance, new ones fitted, spark great, engine fired up, all is good in the world ......... for now !
Its just that the plugs that were in the bike, previously fitted brand new, could only have covered 200 miles max.
TBH this is not the first time I have this sort of thing happen with NKG plugs but then again, subliminally, I never seem to buy any other make of plug.

To eliminate other areas of speculation, my bike was totally restored just over a year ago and has brand new wiring loom, all new coils ( supplied by LP Williams with the Boyer MK111 unit ), new plug leads and caps, brand new heavy duty Gel type battery, brand new Carbs, and on and on and on, hence the money pit comment. A T160 seems to be the motorcycle equivalent of a high maintenance woman !

A cursory glance elsewhere regarding Iridium Plugs brings up the usual internet extremes of views from great to waste of time !

SJS #841698 03/02/21 10:20 pm
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SJS----don't really like to say this after Stuarts comments but----
A T160 and a Boyer Mk III are the worse combination you can get.
The Boyer Mk III is well known for being sensitive to low battery voltage---such as you get when you use the starter motor on a T160.
If I were in your shoes I would splash out for a Trispark--or at least a Boyer Mk IV.
And you are correct -- a T160 is a money pit.
Is it the equivalent pf a high maintenance woman?
Well--you certainly can't afford both!
As I say when my wife questions the time I spend i my workshop--at least it keeps me out of the strip clubs and sports bars!
Incidentally---do you live in Northampton itself or on the outskirts?
For many years I lived on the Northampton side of Rugby in a little village called Grandborough.
Small world eh?

SJS #841700 03/02/21 10:42 pm
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Hi,
Originally Posted by Adam M.
Answering an OP previous question - points ign system fires only one spark plug for a cylinder working in this particular moment, Boyer system fires 3 spark plugs every time one of the cylinders works - hence the difference in quality of spark between them,
Yes and no.

Coils are transformers:-

. 4V across the LT of a '4V'-rated coil, HT will be up to full (20,000?) Volts;

. otoh, 4V across the LT of a '6V'-rated coil, HT cannot even get to 2/3rds of full Volts ... that is "the difference in quality of spark" ...

... up to the 1990's, Lucas Rita was available alongside Boyer-Bransden, Rita for a triple supplied with ... three '4V' coils ... guess how much trouble that wasn't compared to B-B and '6V' coils? smile

Originally Posted by Adam M.
My Trispark system works with original set of 3 Lucas 12V coils, and still works flawlessly
... so does at least one 43-year-old Rita with its original set of 3 Lucas 4V coils ... smile

Originally Posted by SJS
Boyer system fires 3 spark plugs every time one of the cylinders works ---------------- In my admitted minimal knowledge of the workings of the system, this was the point I was thinking of when I queried whether the Boyer system was harder work on the plugs.
Uh-uh.

HT Volts are tens of thousands - 20(?) KV (20,000 Volts); there simply isn't any way any electronic ignition can generate that; as I posted earlier, EI is simply a glorified on/off switch for the coil(s).

Any EI simply switches coils' LT on and off - on to charge the coils, off to trigger the HT spark, the EI brand has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the HT spark, HT is simply and only down to the coil.

Three '4V' coils connected in series draw exactly the same Amps from the bike's electrical system as one '12V' coil. Three '6V' coils connected in series actually draw slightly less Amps than one '12V' coil ... but, specifically for ignition coils, that's thumbsdown

Originally Posted by SJS
plugs were my problem
not the first time I have this sort of thing happen with NKG plugs
Mmmm ... conversing recently with Richard Darby of 3D Motorcycles; he advised, while he's been a long-time NGK user (after he found Champions had become unreliable years ago), he's now back using Champions after NGK's became unreliable ...

Originally Posted by SJS
bike was totally restored just over a year ago and has brand new wiring loom, all new coils ( supplied by LP Williams with the Boyer MK111 unit ),
Hmmm ... one wonders why LPW didn't supply 4V coils ...? confused

Originally Posted by SJS
new plug leads and caps, brand new heavy duty Gel type battery, brand new Carbs, and on and on and on, hence the money pit comment.
Mmmm ... without knowing what the problem/s is/are, lots of money doesn't fix problems except by chance. The aforementioned 43-year-old 4V coils are connected to original (i.e. 46-year-old) HT leads and plastic Champion plug covers ... on the basis of "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It" ...

Hth.

Regards,

Last edited by Stuart; 03/03/21 10:56 am. Reason: More information
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