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kommando #840152 02/15/21 10:05 pm
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the objective is to get as near to the high pressure air.


ok ,
which according to pascals law would be anywhere inside the crankcase
when pressurized , with equalization happening at the speed of sound

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JER.Hill #840156 02/15/21 10:28 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Having had the 7 plate clutch and the Bob Newby... fit the Bob Newby. In my every attempt to destroy it.. I cannot. Also if you have the PES 5 speed box, Bob will make you a clutch centre to fit the spline on the mainshaft.

The standard cam is useful, it can be advanced or retarded and still give a good power spread but move the peak torque up or down the revs. If you fit the SRM race cam it give you a lot more torque throughout the range, it makes for a very tractable yet quick bike. I currently have the X12 in my bike and it’s not bad but I think I should have saved my money and stuck with the SRM item.

Alan,

What is the X12 cam? I was wondering about the SRM race cam and what the difference was. As mentioned I am not racing, just looking for a good road bike. Do you have the 750 barrels?
Are you saying that the Bob Newby Belt Drive Kit is not compatible with the PES 5 speed box unless you have a different clutch centre?

Cheers, Bruce

Last edited by Bruce; 02/15/21 10:43 pm.
Bruce #840157 02/15/21 10:38 pm
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As long as the oil drain back when stopped does not reach the level of the breather tube.
Mikesxs.net has a XS650 reed valve breather with pipes fairly cheap.
I am looking at the reed valve unit off a KTM 1190. Reed valve with cage and rubber gasket around it. Just needs a case. Could be incorporated into the top of the rocker, primary or timing cover.

JER.Hill #840158 02/15/21 10:58 pm
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Originally Posted by JER.Hill
Hi Bruce

For clarification regards the 5 speed. It was Mark at PES who made/makes the clusters, it was I who got it kicked off and had the first 12 sets made.
I think 28 x 58 & 20 x 47 (26" OD tyre) will work fine for road work, bit of traffic and twisty roads will be Ok. Although my gearing is slightly different it works out more less the same and it'll hit 85 at 5k RPM in 5th and can still work traffic in 1st.

I don't have any barrels at the moment. I have been looking for a foundry, but so far the ones I've tried are just doing their own in house work. Or their prices have been scary in comparison to what the last batch cost.

regards

John

Thanks John,

I think I may try this 750 with the original 4 speed first and see how it goes before springing for the 5 speed.
Sorry I didn't get your barrels when you still had them! I would have prefered the alloy barrels to save some weight but I have had these SRM cast ones for a long time now so will use them.

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce #840164 02/16/21 12:21 am
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As i've run primary type breathing for around 30 years on the track and on the road, i
suppose i'm rather convinced it works well. Believe me, i wouldn't run/put up with it
if it caused the problems others say will happen.

I'm sure you're right and only mentioned my concerns having converted my B44 to B50 style breathing via the chaincase. Having done the conversion I noted the engine oil blackened rapidly probably because I'm using sureflex clutch plates which seem to be made from a rubber compound rather than cork which probably accounted for the rapid blackening.

I also noted a small amount sparkles in the chaincase, probably from the clutch plates, chain or rotor contact with the stator. I'm using a Magnifine filter in the return line and an alloy sump plate with magnetic sump plug so I assume any debris is immediately filtered out.

I'm intrigued by Kommando's breather and personally would prefer the breather to be higher in the engine and combined with an appropriate reed valve. However if Kommando says it works then I'm willing to believe him.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Bruce #840189 02/16/21 9:54 am
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Demonstration of reed valve breather here



https://jsmotorsport.com/product/one-way-reed-valve-breather/

Bruce #840193 02/16/21 1:34 pm
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Im going to play dumb here (ok, half play it)


When you look at the breathing system on a car, it lets in air as well as it expells toxic blowby,

[Linked Image]

So, apart from the Bunn breather system which has an inlet and outlet. why is it suddenly a great idea to fit a system on a bike that will give a negative pressure in the crank case? Before PCV valves started getting added on our old heaps, an open breather was quite satisfactory. But if its also such a good idea why don't the boffins that design car engines use the same principle? It should work better surely as not all the engine displacement volume is being evacuated on a 4 or 6 cylinder car engine?

If you are going to fit a reed valve then what is the benefit over the timed breather?

(I've got no sway either way on this, just asking a question in a critical way)


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Bruce #840195 02/16/21 1:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Bruce
Originally Posted by Allan G
Having had the 7 plate clutch and the Bob Newby... fit the Bob Newby. In my every attempt to destroy it.. I cannot. Also if you have the PES 5 speed box, Bob will make you a clutch centre to fit the spline on the mainshaft.

The standard cam is useful, it can be advanced or retarded and still give a good power spread but move the peak torque up or down the revs. If you fit the SRM race cam it give you a lot more torque throughout the range, it makes for a very tractable yet quick bike. I currently have the X12 in my bike and it’s not bad but I think I should have saved my money and stuck with the SRM item.

Alan,

What is the X12 cam? I was wondering about the SRM race cam and what the difference was. As mentioned I am not racing, just looking for a good road bike. Do you have the 750 barrels?
Are you saying that the Bob Newby Belt Drive Kit is not compatible with the PES 5 speed box unless you have a different clutch centre?

Cheers, Bruce

The X12 is the megacycle road race cam. I don't race either but I do like to have different bikes with different characteristics. Or rather similar bikes with different charactoristics. I am running +060 on my A65L (so thats about 680cc fwiw), I have a set of John's Aluminium barrels for my OIF A65T, but thats 823cc and has an A10 crank also. A50 cam and mild compression (although the head isn't on it yet so i don't know what it will kick over like)

The BNR kit is designed to fit on the original taper shaft. The PES box uses a spline but I beleive has an adaptor... The Spline is a much better system for this IMO & FWIW, I consulted Bob some time ago asking about the spline. He said he can do a clutch centre to suit. Your best bet might be to contact him directly and confirm.

If you were going down that route, I would suggest to ask Mark from PES to ship your gearbox to Bob and he will use the mainshaft as a pattern. (unless you have a vendor (Ed V?) in the states for the box) from what I have seen you'll find it be cheaper to buy the box from the UK with the exchange rate as it stands at the moment.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Bruce #840199 02/16/21 2:21 pm
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Negative internal pressure reduces oil leaks.

Bruce #840201 02/16/21 2:44 pm
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If the timed breather worked well there would be no advantage to the reed valve. IMO BSA unit 650 plus cc timed breathers do not work well, the convoluted path from the crank case to the disc valve gets out of phase with the pressure pulses as the revs rise, the cam shaft has a very narrow drilling for the gas passage about the diameter of a drinking straw, the timing chest is full of oil mist, this gets expelled and gets messy, I have pondered over the small breather passage, i reckon if it was opened up there would be more mess, BSA probably experimented with this and cunningly disguised it with the primary chaincase "chain oiler". My own experiment with a reed valve tapped into the front case timing plug hole did not go well, lots of oil was chucked out with the gases, over a litre in 30 miles. it did sound amusing at tick over .


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56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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kommando #840205 02/16/21 3:09 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Negative internal pressure reduces oil leaks.

Negative pressure also lessens internal "windage" losses. High performance racing engines often use a vacuum pump to reduce crankcase pressure


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Bruce #840207 02/16/21 3:26 pm
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Where you send the breathed air will affect how much oil gets carried away. On the Commando the oil tank is the first arrival point for the breathed air, just above the oil return pipe outlet, the oil tank has its own breather pipe outlet hidden behind a screen. So the oil laden air goes into the oil tank over the top of the oil before following a tortuous route to be breathed again out of the tank and into the air filter. On my MK2a with the foam air filter this stays nicely oiled unless you fill the oil tank too far above the low level mark on the dip stick then the filter clogs with oil and the engine is starved of air. The MK3 added an oil separation chamber to refine the system.

[Linked Image from andover-<a href='http://ebay.us/EodGjF'>Norton</a>.co.uk]

gavin eisler #840210 02/16/21 4:08 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
If the timed breather worked well there would be no advantage to the reed valve. IMO BSA unit 650 plus cc timed breathers do not work well, the convoluted path from the crank case to the disc valve gets out of phase with the pressure pulses as the revs rise, the cam shaft has a very narrow drilling for the gas passage about the diameter of a drinking straw, the timing chest is full of oil mist, this gets expelled and gets messy, I have pondered over the small breather passage, i reckon if it was opened up there would be more mess, BSA probably experimented with this and cunningly disguised it with the primary chaincase "chain oiler". My own experiment with a reed valve tapped into the front case timing plug hole did not go well, lots of oil was chucked out with the gases, over a litre in 30 miles. it did sound amusing at tick over .


If I may quote PRT, he mentioned that he found no benefit over the timed breather.

I have noticed that if you use the cam out of phase then this will have a big difference and I have found leaks start until an aditional breather has been used.

I've used open to air breathers off the rocker box on several occasions with no adverse effects, however on my current build, it will be the first time that I have also blanked off the timed breather completely.
Like you I feel that the 3/16 hole through the cam is a little small for fast evactuation of the gasses and possibly it is aqequete for a 650 but not anything with more cc's.
..............................................................................................................

Kommando, I have thought about using the oil spine on an OIF as the catch tank. I think its a good idea! although it would involve adding an aditional breather pipe to the oil spine for it to work properly. I think then the PCV is absolutely neccesery as you wouldn't want to risk applying any kind of vacuum to the oil tank.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Allan G #840212 02/16/21 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Im going to play dumb here (ok, half play it)


When you look at the breathing system on a car, it lets in air as well as it expells toxic blowby,

[Linked Image]

So, apart from the Bunn breather system which has an inlet and outlet. why is it suddenly a great idea to fit a system on a bike that will give a negative pressure in the crank case? Before PCV valves started getting added on our old heaps, an open breather was quite satisfactory. But if its also such a good idea why don't the boffins that design car engines use the same principle? It should work better surely as not all the engine displacement volume is being evacuated on a 4 or 6 cylinder car engine?

If you are going to fit a reed valve then what is the benefit over the timed breather?

(I've got no sway either way on this, just asking a question in a critical way)
The closed crankcase breathing was adapted as a result of the first emissions laws in the US in the early 60's. Before that it was offered as an option on slow moving delivery vehicles to limit oil dilution from water vapor. US engines used a road draft tube for crankcase ventilation that needed air flow from road speed to pull vapors from the crankcase. The PCV system does cut down water vapor and sludge in the engine.
I notice my 96 Ducati has only one breather, Don't know if newer bikes have a system to pull in fresh air...
Drag race cars use vacuum pumps or a tube hooked to the exhaust to keep a high vacuum in the crankcase. I belive this is primarily for ring seal purposes...
Is there any proof, lets say on a dyno, that the vacuum one way valves offer any advantage over a proper sized open breather?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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I can under stand using one on a Norton as there is no plenum to expand into.
The primary area on an a65 s probably as large as the Norton lower cases.

Bruce #840239 02/17/21 12:28 am
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Surely, even though it’s a pre-unit, the primary case could still be used as a chamber? It’s still the same space even though its not unified to the crankcase and gearbox.
Admittedly the extra joints mean even more leakage potential though!

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Koan, nortons and pre unit triumphs have enough trouble keeping oil in the primary without
adding to the problem..............

Allan G #840243 02/17/21 1:50 am
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Im going to play dumb here (ok, half play it)


When you look at the breathing system on a car, it lets in air as well as it expells toxic blowby,

[Linked Image]

So, apart from the Bunn breather system which has an inlet and outlet. why is it suddenly a great idea to fit a system on a bike that will give a negative pressure in the crank case? Before PCV valves started getting added on our old heaps, an open breather was quite satisfactory. But if its also such a good idea why don't the boffins that design car engines use the same principle? It should work better surely as not all the engine displacement volume is being evacuated on a 4 or 6 cylinder car engine?

If you are going to fit a reed valve then what is the benefit over the timed breather?

(I've got no sway either way on this, just asking a question in a critical way)

Dumb, and not playing: In a multi-cylinder engine with pistons going up and down at different times, wouldn't the negative vs. positive crankcase pressure balance out?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Bruce #840254 02/17/21 6:05 am
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Yes, breathing is much easier to implement in a multicylinder engine, especially compared with a twin where both pistons rise and fall together.
My A65 came to me modified to breathe as a Triumph through the primary. I'm not sure that it worked very well, they left the crank seal in place. crazy
They also put the exit tube out the front of the primary case. I don't know why, maybe it puts out less oil without the diverter that's inside the Triumph case? Most of the racing BSAs I've seen have the breather out the top rear of the primary, as Triumph did.
I removed the crank seal and ran the hose to a Mike's XS reed valve mounted to the front of the airbox housing. I know it works because I can hear it. I did leave the timed breather in place. Perhaps that's superfluous? All I know is that I no longer get a small bit of oil under the exit of the timed breather when parked.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
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Mark Z #840264 02/17/21 7:45 am
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Originally Posted by Mark Z
Originally Posted by Allan G
Im going to play dumb here (ok, half play it)


When you look at the breathing system on a car, it lets in air as well as it expells toxic blowby,

[Linked Image]

So, apart from the Bunn breather system which has an inlet and outlet. why is it suddenly a great idea to fit a system on a bike that will give a negative pressure in the crank case? Before PCV valves started getting added on our old heaps, an open breather was quite satisfactory. But if its also such a good idea why don't the boffins that design car engines use the same principle? It should work better surely as not all the engine displacement volume is being evacuated on a 4 or 6 cylinder car engine?

If you are going to fit a reed valve then what is the benefit over the timed breather?

(I've got no sway either way on this, just asking a question in a critical way)

Dumb, and not playing: In a multi-cylinder engine with pistons going up and down at different times, wouldn't the negative vs. positive crankcase pressure balance out?

Not dumb, That was my point, there is no negative pressure on the multi cylinder car engine with closed loop breather system. You need the breather to get rid of the toxins, acids and increased crank case compression from piston blow-by.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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One of the tricks used when tuning big Japanese fours is to cut large holes in the bottom of the liners between adjacent cylinders. This allows free passage of air from under the descending piston into the space under the ascending piston


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One of the tricks used when tuning the a65 engine is to cut a large section of the crankcase out in
front of the left hand con-rod, thus allowing free passage when it breaks.........

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Sounds like the voice of experience and a load of b----x too. What can mere mortals make of it?

NickL makes commonsense, I don't understand the holes of higham, though I don't appreciate everything at 1st sample.

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NEgative pressure is a by product from the bad old days of long stroke engines that had no oil seals on the crankshaft .
Up until 1990 that included Rolls Royce just by the way.
The logic being that the air ( unflitered ) would be sucked in around the crank shaft by the partial vacuum in the crank case drawing the oil back in with it.

Now because designerstend to just keep on doing what they have always done, no one bothered to think about it .
When Rex did the initial research for the Bunn Breather he was flabbergasted that there was zero published research on crank case venting which is one reason why Auckland University came on board as they then had the opportunity to publish a mass of papers which they did.

And FWIW the 4G 63 & 64 Mitsubishi engines have breathers that provide negative pressure at idle then reverse as the engine speed increases .
IT is a problem when fitting LPG as when the system reverses it fills the crankcase with LPG .

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/18/21 8:58 am.

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Originally Posted by kommando
Negative internal pressure reduces oil leaks.

Negative pressure also lessens internal "windage" losses. High performance racing engines often use a vacuum pump to reduce crankcase pressure
Originally Posted by koan58
Sounds like the voice of experience and a load of b----x too. What can mere mortals make of it?

NickL makes commonsense, I don't understand the holes of higham, though I don't appreciate everything at 1st sample.

Imagine a cylinder of 250cc, when the piston descends 250cc of air must be displaced from below the piston. In the adjacent cylinder the piston is ascending and needs 250cc of air to fill the space. On a road engine the route for the air to take is down between the crank webs into the sump and back up between the webs into the adjacent cylinder. At 10,000 + RPM it takes a lot of power to move the air so holes between cylinders create a short cut and an easier passage for the air.


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Greeves 350
Greeves 360
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