Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
perfect.tommy
perfect.tommy
vancouver, canada
Posts: 67
Joined: September 2013
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#839490 02/09/21 1:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Just got a new CWC rim for 8" half brake front wheel and having problems lacing it correctly. Usually I lace them the same way the original was and everything works out fine. This rim seems to be drilled differently and is causing problems. I think it matters which way the rim goes but don't know how to figure that out. Hoping the rim wasn't drilled completely wrong. With wheel laced as in pictures the hub side outer spokes are about 1/2" too long. Usually means it's laced wrong. Also brake side spokes will only go in opposite direction of oem rim and spokes.[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Any help appreciated.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
The rim is sided and should be marked usually inside the rim. I stopped using CWC as they do not always mark the rims and use changes to suit them and not either the end user or originality.

On the non CWC rim I have it has brakeside written inside the rim on one side.

On the small hub side between each pair of parallel spokes there should be 7 other spoke heads.

Your 3rd image does not show to me.

Also be useful if you read this thread on problems with the same hub.

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=552625

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Read the thread and it might help. Least now think I can identify the brake side. On my wheel as in the pics, there are 7 spoke heads between the parallel spokes. Will look at it after bit with a clear head and maybe will figure it out. The 3rd pic was deleted( wrong one).


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 321
Likes: 7
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 321
Likes: 7
If you go to Devonrimcompany.com, the have a nice video for the BSA 8” front wheel lacing.


1951 ZB GS
1953 BB GS
1953 Super Flash
1954 Vincent BS
1963 RGS
1956 Triumph T110

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Thanks. Was using that.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,376
Likes: 25
G
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,376
Likes: 25
Bill: Did you try to build it flipped over to the other side? You might have the correct holes for the two sides of the hub but they are coming from the wrong side so as to influence the effective 'length'.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Good idea. Will try that next.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 908
Likes: 14
Sponsor
Offline
Sponsor
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 908
Likes: 14
I have found that there are a couple different ways the rims can be drilled and still lace up fine with the correct spokes. Rather then try to duplicate your old rim pattern, clear you mind and approach each side sort of separately. Meaning the pattern for each side will be the same as on your old rim but how they relate to the other side may be a bit different. This is also true for the 6" conical hubs on the B50s. A couple different drillings that use the same spoke lengths and lacing pattern on each side. CWC rims seem to use the "alternate" drilling from what most of the stock rims come with. Folks often enough call me an say I must have sent them the wrong spokes, but with a bit of encouragement they always end up figuring it out.


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Originally Posted by Peter Quick
I have found that there are a couple different ways the rims can be drilled and still lace up fine with the correct spokes. Rather then try to duplicate your old rim pattern, clear you mind and approach each side sort of separately. Meaning the pattern for each side will be the same as on your old rim but how they relate to the other side may be a bit different. This is also true for the 6" conical hubs on the B50s. A couple different drillings that use the same spoke lengths and lacing pattern on each side. CWC rims seem to use the "alternate" drilling from what most of the stock rims come with. Folks often enough call me an say I must have sent them the wrong spokes, but with a bit of encouragement they always end up figuring it out.
Appreciate the info. Using my original spokes, so know they're right. I think your clearing my mind and just figuring it out is a great idea. Was kind of stuck on how original was laced.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,741
Likes: 34
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,741
Likes: 34
Using old spokes is not a good idea, they are highly stressed in use


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 156
Likes: 19
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 156
Likes: 19
Originally Posted by Beach
Just got a new CWC rim for 8" half brake front wheel and having problems lacing it correctly. Usually I lace them the same way the original was and everything works out fine. This rim seems to be drilled differently and is causing problems. I think it matters which way the rim goes but don't know how to figure that out. Hoping the rim wasn't drilled completely wrong. With wheel laced as in pictures the hub side outer spokes are about 1/2" too long. Usually means it's laced wrong. Also brake side spokes will only go in opposite direction of oem rim and spokes.
Any help appreciated.

Hi Beach,

Don't know if it will help you but I bought a stainless steel rim and spoke set from the Devon rim Company and used their online wheel building video. It all went perfectly and the rim was marked up by them as to which side was the brake drum side and where the brake side inner spokes started. I have attached pictures and hope they might help you.

Kev E

IMG_1380.JPG (75.49 KB, 318 downloads)
IMG_1379.JPG (77.49 KB, 319 downloads)
IMG_1382.JPG (39.07 KB, 321 downloads)
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
P
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
P
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
After looking at your wheel, I noticed that you have a cross 3 spoke pattern on the hub side. On my BSA 441 Victor Special my wheel has a cross 4 spoke pattern. I believe your wheel should be laced in a cross 4 spoke pattern as well. That would definitely explain why your spokes are 1/2 inch too long.
I could submit a picture if you would like.

Peter Joe

Last edited by Peter_Joe; 02/11/21 4:45 pm.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Originally Posted by Peter_Joe
After looking at your wheel, I noticed that you have a cross 3 spoke pattern on the hub side. On my BSA 441 Victor Special my wheel has a cross 4 spoke pattern. I believe your wheel should be laced in a cross 4 spoke pattern as well. That would definitely explain why your spokes are 1/2 inch too long.
I could submit a picture if you would like.

Peter Joe
I think brake side is cross 2 and hub side is cross 4. Pics of yours would be appreciated.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
P
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
P
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 63
Here are a few pictures of my 441 front wheel spokes. The drum size is definitely a cross 2 spoke pattern and the hub side a cross 4 spoke pattern. On your wheel it appears that the spoke pair that does the initial crossing at the hub goes out to the rim with 11 spoke hole spacing. On mine with a cross 4 it has a 15 hole spacing at the rim. It might be easier to see if I draw a picture if that would be of more help.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Peter Joe

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Sure picture appreciated


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Peter Quick
I have found that there are a couple different ways the rims can be drilled and still lace up fine with the correct spokes. Rather then try to duplicate your old rim pattern, clear you mind and approach each side sort of separately. Meaning the pattern for each side will be the same as on your old rim but how they relate to the other side may be a bit different. This is also true for the 6" conical hubs on the B50s. A couple different drillings that use the same spoke lengths and lacing pattern on each side. CWC rims seem to use the "alternate" drilling from what most of the stock rims come with. Folks often enough call me an say I must have sent them the wrong spokes, but with a bit of encouragement they always end up figuring it out.
Still having same problem. In pics attached is laced a bit different with same result...Outer spokes,hub side 1/2" too long. Contacted CWC and said they'd help if I sent pics of wheel but haven't heard back yet.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,635
Likes: 63
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,635
Likes: 63
Looking at the pictures it looks like your nipples are the Metric version (.281 inch in diameter) while the hole is for the .300 inch nipples. In the wheel building world this is not acceptable. When .281 inch nipples are properly tightened they tend to pull through .300 inch holes in the rim. Now it could be the angle the picture was aken, but I would get my verniers.

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 860
Likes: 109
C
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
C
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 860
Likes: 109
Hi Beach,
Have you checked the spoke lengths against the BSA data?
Look at this https://bsac10c11c12.co.uk/smf/brakes-wheels-service-sheets/spokes-all-models/
I am sure I saw a better set of images on some other forum ???
If I remember I have a wheel I can measure the short length spokes on tomorrow

John

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Originally Posted by John Healy
Looking at the pictures it looks like your nipples are the Metric version (.281 inch in diameter) while the hole is for the .300 inch nipples. In the wheel building world this is not acceptable. When .281 inch nipples are properly tightened they tend to pull through .300 inch holes in the rim. Now it could be the angle the picture was aken, but I would get my verniers.
Actually am using oem spokes and nipples. Nipples are .250 and hole is .275. Hope CWC didn't drill holes in rim too large.

Last edited by Beach; 02/18/21 11:10 pm.

Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]Would anyone here feel safe running wheel with these holes and nipples? .029" difference. There is also pic of oem rim vs CWC rim. Have been in contact but they deny any mistake here.[Linked Image][Linked Image]


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
I would not risk it, in the UK you can buy the nipples separately, suggest you get .275" nickel plated brass nipples from Buchanan's, if they don't do them then try looking for 10ga 7mm spoke nipples.

This supplier does 9ga 7mm spokes but not 10ga 7mm.

[Linked Image from static.wixstatic.com]


I just checked my non-CWC rim and the holes are 0.255".

The other alternative is to drill out the holes to 0.300" and use 10ga 0.300" nipples.

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
[Linked Image]Hate to drill out holes(place to rust) and then buy new nipples. Just wish CWC would do the right thing. Thinking about buying a Devon rim. Exchange rate isn't very good now.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,635
Likes: 63
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,635
Likes: 63
let's start back at the begining. The Central Wheel rim sold for, and drilled and pierced for the pre-1968 offset hub, will be marked (depending when it was made) 68-5556 or RD.43.03.02.

Did you buy this rim from Central Wheel direct? Their wheel builder is correct! What he fails to take into consideration is most people doing this (even people who consider themselves a wheel builder) are rim replacers. If the rim's lacing pattern fails to match the original, they are usually lost.

For the past 40 years we have tried to make CW understand, unlike in the UK where there is usually a wheel builder in the local village, or local area; in the US wheel builders are few and far between. For the most part we are a nation of rim replacers.

It much easier to stock some 10 odd rims that will work for most applictions, than to stock some 20 or 30 that are specific to a brand or model. It just helps keep the cost down. Then, as some dealers do, offer to build the wheel for nothing if it truly will not mount. You will pay as rarely will it not work.

The rim is handed, but not marked as such. Putting some loose nipples in the holes it should be immediately evident which side is which. The difference in the angle the spokes enter this rim should be obvious. On the brake drum side the spokes should exit the rim at a greater angle than the off-brake-drum side! This as if you are pretending to view the spokes exiting the rim at 90° angle. If you don't see the difference I would walk away giving time for your observations to take hold - and practice.

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
Beach Online Content OP
Britbike forum member
OP Online Content
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 52
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Originally Posted by John Healy
let's start back at the begining. The Central Wheel rim sold for, and drilled and pierced for the pre-1968 offset hub, will be marked (depending when it was made) 68-5556 or RD.43.03.02.

Did you buy this rim from Central Wheel direct? Their wheel builder is correct! What he fails to take into consideration is most people doing this (even people who consider themselves a wheel builder) are rim replacers. If the rim's lacing pattern fails to match the original, they are usually lost.

For the past 40 years we have tried to make CW understand, unlike in the UK where there is usually a wheel builder in the local village, or local area; in the US wheel builders are few and far between. For the most part we are a nation of rim replacers.

It much easier to stock some 10 odd rims that will work for most applictions, than to stock some 20 or 30 that are specific to a brand or model. It just helps keep the cost down. Then, as some dealers do, offer to build the wheel for nothing if it truly will not mount. You will pay as rarely will it not work.

The rim is handed, but not marked as such. Putting some loose nipples in the holes it should be immediately evident which side is which. The difference in the angle the spokes enter this rim should be obvious. On the brake drum side the spokes should exit the rim at a greater angle than the off-brake-drum side! This as if you are pretending to view the spokes exiting the rim at 90° angle. If you don't see the difference I would walk away giving time for your observations to take hold - and practice.
Was purchased from CWC direct and enclosed is pic of what they engraved. I know about the steeper angle on the brake side. I also noticed brake side holes inner hole is higher than outer a bit. I have laced hub side first with outer spoke going cw viewed from top. Then laced inners . Now laced inner brake side and outer. Looks to be laced correctly but outer hub side spokes stick out 1/2" further(at end of threads. Thinking I can figure lacing out but the too large holes just isn't right. .245" nipple and .274 hole is wrong. I had asked for suggestion on lacing but no help.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5