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Greetings!

A project has been launched to create a searchable online database of errors in Triumph parts books, service bulletins, and WS Manuals.

For more information and to view the the most current database, point your browser at:

http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/parts/errors/index.htm

After reading the introduction there, please consider taking a little time to contribute to the project. Submissions should include as much specific information as possible and you may submit them in a reply to this thread.

Also needed are persons with expertise in specific models and/or areas of mechanics to peer review entries.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

To Err is Human, To Correct is Divine!

Cheers!


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One of the big problems with the parts, which unfortunately your worthy project won't address, is that Triumph often changed parts partway though a model year run. The parts book often only reflects the first number, not the change. A good example is the change from BS to UN threadform which started in 68. It seems they used up all the old stocks before changing, so some early 68 bikes have different threads to those on later ones.


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Good work Bruce. I'm sure folks on here might have manuals full of annotations. Maybe they could send through photos?

I'm happy to help, if you need just shout.

I've got some for the trident I'll pass on.


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Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
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Morrisey,

True, the database will never know what day Frank the fender guy on line 2 ran out of BS bolts and changed over to UN.

But, in our database each Manual will have it's own "boot notes" which could include information like such-and-such changes happened... this year, in such a month, with such a VIN, etc.

That information is available with one click wherever the name of the Replacement Parts Catalogue (RPC) appears anywhere - in the index, on the page with it's errors, etc.

And meanwhile and most importantly the database will tell you what part is SUPPOSED to be used there! And perhaps also that the drawing is wrong, or what's missing, etc.


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BigBars,

You bet I want help! Do you know what I know about Tridents? I'll put it all down here, in parenthesis: ().

In fact, I know next to nothing about any models apart from the one I ride (and frankly, damn little about that one compared with what others here know). That's why I'm depending on the expertise and knowledge of other people in the classic Triumph community like yourself.

To the extent the project succeeds or fails will be up to the community.

So, if you know of Trident parts book/ws Manual/sb errors, by all means, start your list. Right now I'm hard at work creating the software to do the job and I'm confident that all the technical obstacles can be overcome, but the information about the errors will have to come from somewhere.

When you're writing down errors, please try to include as much as possible of the following

All the info on the book's title page(including that tiny little Triumph part no at the bottom of the page if it's there).
Document part#
Page, reference, fig where the error occurs
Part# (if applicable to the error)
Dscription of the problem

This project can definitely be done. Rome wasn't built in a day. It will take a little time, but it can be done if enough people chip in.


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Y'know what would be very valuable, if it even exists. How about a cross reference for casting numbers to actual part numbers?
I admit that they are often only one number different, but we've all tried to find a correct center stand at a swap meet. There is a casting number on each leg, and neither has anything to do with the part number for the complete assembly.


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And a cross reference between BSA and Triumph for the SAME PART.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

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Hi David,

Good suggestion - and the database model could certainly accommodate that kind of info. Please post any such info that you have. Just remember that I will need Triumph parts book part# in which each part is listed as well as the page, reference#, figure, and Triumph part number as well as its casting number and/or BSA equiv.

Cheers!


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I do have a couple of Triumph revisions to the 72 T150 and T150V parts catalog, dated July 19, 1972. If these are of interest I can scan and post copies.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

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The first thing you need to do is recognize that there were 3 parts books for a given production year: Domestic, General Export and USA. For the USA parts books there were two importers: Johnson Motors (west coast models) and The Triumph Corporation (east coac models). Each had their own specificaions for some models. For some years there were supplements specifiying east and west coast iterations. On top of this The Triumph Coprporation issued a multi-page document for each model and model year correcting mistakes made in the parts books. Some of them are 6, or more pages, single spaced. Most of the parts books were prepared long before final descsions on production specifications were made. In some cases this led to chaos.

Then there is a group of years where parts books were printed that contained so many mistakes that they were reprinted. In some manner, or way, the dicarder books found thier way into local salvage houses (MCE comes to mind) that specialized in buying production scrap. Has anyone that is reading this been in MCE's celler? Selling rejected parts, and scrap to local motorcycle trade was a small side occupation for a few factory workers. A lot of these parts that failed inspection, and the odd rejected parts books found their way in to the market only to make the whole what-fits-what, and what is new-old-stock a whole different problem.

Then there are hundreds of parts that share the same part number with different specifications. The classic one is W1332 (37-1332) which has 3 iterations. The other is the tach and speedo bracket 97-1946 of which there are 3 iterations. This is an exercise in itself.

I'am getting a headache, but I have had the same headache for 50 odd years dealing with the way Triumph handled their parts. Where is Jack Shortland, Triumph Export parts manager, when you need him? Passed some years ago. That's why any Triumph dealer "worth his salt" has parts books full of notes and changes.

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John, in other words, it's a hopeless situation?

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I am impressed with Bruce's work so far. It should be book-marked on any Triumph owner's computer.

I have compiled parts books from 1963 until 1982 into one book. I have been working on it, off-and-on, for 35 years. There must be at least 1,000 hours in the project. That only includes the unit 650-750 models. This leaves the 200, 250, 350-500 (both unit and non-unit models), 650 non-unit and triples left to do.

To further confuse things changes were made on the production floor that were not documented on drawings. Also changes were made on drawings that were never implemented on the production floor. This was especially a problem around the years where engineer was were made at Umberslade Hall that never made it to the Triumph production.

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Sounds like a Sisyphean task.


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Sorry to be grumpy, but what I find pointless and useless is folks sitting around complaining about parts book errors and not doing anything about it.

Do people think this is rocket science? Well, if using words and making lists of stuff is rocket science then we're all rocket scientists.

I've written over fifty full-blown database application programs for businesses, schools and universities, and hospitals. Nearly all of them were way more complicated than TED. Many of them require over a dozen tables to represent the data. TED uses a simple many-to-many model - one book can have many errors, and one error can be in many books. Three tables, that's it that's all. Piece of cake for a database programmer.

So instead of us all sitting around nay saying, why don't we pick up pencil and paper and get to work? If you know something, say something.

Just two things - 1) look in TED to see if the info you have is already there before going to the trouble, 2) be sure you include specific info, such as full title, part#, and date of the publication as well as page, ref, and figure and a description of the problem. Don't assume that I know anything about the problem because I assuredly don't. I will do my best to verify your info and then add it to TED.

Replacement Parts Catalogues (RPCs), service bulletins (SBs), and WS Manuals are all fair game. Esoteric is fine, but let's make sure to get all the low-hanging fruit. This project is as much for the next generation of Triumph lovers as it is for us.

If the project fails don't look at me - look in the mirror. I really care, don't you?


Latest TED update published last night: www.hermit.cc/tmc/parts/errors/index.htm


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Originally Posted by DavidP
I do have a couple of Triumph revisions to the 72 T150 and T150V parts catalog, dated July 19, 1972. If these are of interest I can scan and post copies.

David, of great interest Have no info as of yet on those models. Beam it up! And thanks in advance.


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Bruce the basis for this already exists in the form of the addendum sheets supplied by TriCor for the East Coast parts books. These are errors know by the distributor at the time they launched the model. They cover most of the popular east coast models, and years. Get yourself a set of these and you will be far ahead of the game.

If I was to set out to do this I would forget the data base and make PDF (you can edit PDF's) copies of each year, and model, parts books with the changes made in the book. These would include, where appropriate (basically the east coast models), the changes listed on the addendum sheets. This way someone working on that year, and model, had instant reference to the part in question. This is what a working set of dealers parts books would look like. This is how they survived all these years. Then you would need a set from the West Coast books, the General Export books and the domestic books.

I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships.

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Hello John,
The addendum sheets sound quite interesting - I will definitely look into that.

As to PDFs, what you propose would be ideal in many ways, but making corrections to PDFs is tedious, requires expensive software, and only works with unlocked PDFs, which are pretty rare. Then of course there's always the copyright considerations and how to distribute.

A good database program makes it easy to add and edit information and updates to online web pages can be made as frequently as necessary.

I hope people will be satisfied to mark up their own paper copies at home. If PDFs can be parlayed into a satisfactory solution I will leave that to someone else in the community.

Thanks for the addendum suggestion. I do hope people will respond with their own error experiences because they would tend to be the most important and commonly-encountered ones.


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FYI, for unlocking PDF files, google is your friend figuratively and literally. You can open a PDF (even a protected one) in Chrome and then print it to a new PDF, now without any protection....


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
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Hey BigBars, thanks for that very useful piece of information.

The fact remains, though, that making corrections to pdf's would be a cumbersome approach for all the other reasons which I mentioned.

I should mention also that TED's error lists are searchable, copy & paste-able, and eventually downloadable as .csv (retrievable with any spreadsheet program) as well as html - all without any concerns over copyright violation.

I've started looking around for the addendums that Mr. Healy mentioned. So far I've found just two and neither seems to relate to any parts books that I've been able to find for the years they cover.

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/tsb-tri-1964-catalog-update-sheetsNo2.pdf

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/...TriumphPartsToolsAccessoriesCombined.pdf (pajge 3)

Anyone have an idea where the mother lode of these documents might be?


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"I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships."
John Healy
Hysterical!

Last edited by Nick H; 02/09/21 1:57 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
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1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
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Quote
"I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships."
John Healy
Hysterical!

There are two washers on a 1963-70 650 twin that gets UK, and some US, "experts" in-a-twist. Now I have found when it comes to some real type-A UK Triumph "experts" when told by an American (what the Hxll do we know about Triumph's, now really) that his washers are wrong, they loose it. You know the reaction where the veins start bulging out of their necks. Been there, done that!

Quote
I've started looking around for the addendums that Mr. Healy mentioned. So far I've found just two and neither seems to relate to any parts books that I've been able to find for the years they cover.

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/tsb-tri-1964-catalog-update-sheetsNo2.pdf

The above update sheet refers to Triumph 650 1964 #2 in the series:

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/pb-tri-650-1964-no2%2099-0821.pdf

So if you found the mother load there would be in the range of 50 of them for the Triumph models. But the job doesn't start there. You still have to gather the ones for the US West Coast, General Export and Domestic.

You also have to consider all of the individual bulletins published over the years to correct the corrections and updated part numbers, part numbers with several iteration of the parts, etc. I still think paper is the way to go with this. There would be no problem with copyrights updating the addendum sheets. That way if someone was restoring a 1964 650 he would have all the information in one place.

David Gaylin used to sell parts books that included the addendum sheets for the East Coast models. I think he called himself Motorcycle Days.

He was able to get a huge collection of paper from the dumpster when Baltimore closed. Several years back he sold the collection off piece by piece on e-bay and private sales. I don't know where all of the paper went. I wanted to buy it to add to my collection but he wanted too much money so I passed.

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So...Gaylin made his money on Triumph's history with his books, then SOLD the data sheets for even MORE money, for the loss of FUTURE Triumph historians?

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Please forgive me John, if I’m wrong, but I suspect that you’re getting at the fact that not only were errors in parts books through simple silly mistakes, but major errors exist due to differences between manufacturing practice and design.

I’m thinking particularly of the rocker spindle/washer arrangement, that you have mentioned before.
As the changes weren’t done properly by Triumph in the first place, how would original part numbers help?

I think it needs to be much more than a simple database, it needs hotlinks to deal with specific issues.
Not every issue is absolutely resolvable, say different valid opinions exist, so such links would enable folk to make a judgement.

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Quote
Please forgive me John, if I’m wrong, but I suspect that you’re getting at the fact that not only were errors in parts books through simple silly mistakes, but major errors exist due to differences between manufacturing practice and design.


You have no need for forgiveness. There are many layers to a onion and we cannot see, or understand, the whole story until all layers are peeled back.

I have little interest in whether a washer was used, or not, but with the builder's workmanship. I am more impressed with a bike builder like Dave Perewitz who's creations can be ridden daily, than a trailered "perfect" restoration.

With the current use of electronic ignitions and electric start kits I spend more time trying to make people understand that you need a good battery, not a new one.

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I have always got a chuckle regarding the specification in GENERAL DATA of 21-13/16" of the Main bearing (drive side) in the 63-70 650 WSM. Timing side says 2-13/16".

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