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Originally Posted by Thunderlizard
Interesting examples but neither one sounds like the reamer was the problem

well what else was the problem? when you can see parallel gouges/chatter marks running through the lenght of the bush it sure looked like reamer problem to me......but i only saw it myself


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by your description, the guy trying to use it was the problem


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have it your way ........but single point cutters dont chatter dig in like that ... you dont use a .22 cal buffalo shooting do ya....... occasionally in engineering it pays to use the correct tooling , an adjustable multi flute hand reamer is not the correct tool , not in my experience anyhow... im sure some guys have managed using a razor sharp or new adjustable hand reamer and got away with it ...but even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes

oh and by the way ........if you try a hand reamer on the original mystery alloy which is very soft you WILL have a problem.. it will deform rather than cut ...its a bit like trying to thread copper it can be done with the right tooling but only with the right tooling


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well I have used one on both the original babbit bushing and a bronze replacement and it did not dig into either. If you know how to use the tool correctly, it will do the work for you


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Originally Posted by Thunderlizard
well I have used one on both the original babbit bushing and a bronze replacement and it did not dig into either. If you know how to use the tool correctly, it will do the work for you


just out of interest how many years have you worked in the engineering trade ? you know using machinery for a living ?


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Does it really matter? Every apprentice is taught not to blame the tool for the ignorance of the operator, aren't they?

Last edited by Thunderlizard; 02/02/21 2:40 pm.

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Originally Posted by Thunderlizard
Does it really matter? Every apprentice is taught not to blame the tool for the ignorance of the operator, aren't they?

Tell ya what dude im done with this pissing contest , its pointless . I was happy to discuss the matter with a previous poster who clearly has a trade background , now go on back to google sonny

Tradesmen are generally proud of their trade and dont give evasive answers when asked about it bye


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“just out of interest how many years have you worked in the engineering trade ? you know using machinery for a living ?”

Seems this was the initial throwing down of the gauntlet in any urination championship.
Until then most of the posts were based on information, rather than relying on kudos or time served.

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Originally Posted by koan58
“just out of interest how many years have you worked in the engineering trade ? you know using machinery for a living ?”

Seems this was the initial throwing down of the gauntlet in any urination championship.

Until then most of the posts were based on information, rather than relying on kudos or time served.

perhaps so
t
but the comment that i viewed as the commencement of the casting of offensive matter challenge was
"Just curious, have you tried using an expandable reamer on a BSA timing side bush? have you watched someone else try it? or are you speculating that it won't work?"

I had already made it clear amongst my rambling that i have a lengthy trade history so "just speculating " did annoy me a little , but as i said now done with the ablution comparison

then the comedian backhandedly implied i didnt know how to use a reamer ...well thats how i took it anyhow


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BUT to get back to the point I was initially trying to make :

I recon most of the time "line boring, align reaming " call it what you want isnt necessary (other than in situations i mentioned) ...it has just become the "done thing"" incurring vast expense and lengthy waits for hapless owners.

I recon it would be money better spent to get a suitably qualified tradesman to access if it is necessary first , then by all means do that if that is the advise upon examination of alignment

As i said after blowing my case on an A10 to bits and finding a half case i assessed it to see if it needed "the procedure" it didnt , so i just spun up a new inner bush and it worked out very well .many the club have commented on how good the bottom end sounds

so yeah i saved $thousands and had the bike back on the road in 1 month ( the guys in the club were a God send helping me find parts , couldn't have done it without them! ) We bikers must stick together you know!


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You are faced with the situation that blokes are trying to make a perfect , or what they think is perfect
setup from a mass produced piece of gear that was engineered to allow for imperfections and priced
to suit. These old crates were built by blokes who were payed by how many they made, not if they were
within 3 tenths of a thou. The a65 is a rugged motor if put together well, not a precision motor, it was
never built as a Brough or similar it was equivalent to a 'detroit dustbin' of the car world. The fact that
they enjoyed huge success when used in sidecar racing proves that they were rugged. It's also a note
that most of that sidecar success was on motors with standard bottom ends not needle race converted
motors.
Just my 2c.

Last edited by NickL; 02/06/21 12:16 am.
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dont even start me on those needle roller conversions .......as i said decades back when they first became the flavor of the month ......what are guys going to do when THOSE wear out the crank (and they do ) ........bet a few motors have been scrapped when they discovered this ... but i did say i want going to comment ,, and as for the black box ignition ... at least i have a chance of fixing my points on the side of the road

but i recon the much maligned A65 bottom end was actually pretty good .......50 years latter what can i say .... regular oil changes is the answer , not reinventing the wheel


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End fed needle roller timing side evolved for a good reason, so did EI.


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Yes Gavin, the needle roller conversion evolved for good reasons, i won't argue that,
it's just that the main reason was to compensate for people's inability to get the standard
job done properly. When 'hotting up' the engine, fitting different cranks etc, the quality
of earlier oil pumps not rebuilt properly etc. All these reasons made the needle race
an attractive option. BUT all conversions are not equal, i've seen many that are poorer
than the old bush setup in terms of accuracy and engineering, bad welding and distorted
cases and covers etc. Not a job for an average diy guy as a mill is a minimum requirement.
When done properly the needle race uses an inner which is pressed onto the crank so no
wear on the actual shaft takes place.
Electronic ignition is a pet subject with me, like many, i would never go back to points by choice.
I understand the roadside failure thing but once again, i've never experienced a failure of EI.
I do admit that i have a 'get you home' box in the side cover though, it takes about 3 minutes
to just swap the leads over. No advance/retard makes starting a bit more difficult but as i said
it will get me home. I suppose with a background in the field, electronics doesn't frighten me.
These days if you look under your car hood/bonnet so much is electronic, why worry?

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how on earth has my A65 ever lasted 50 years with neither modification. And the A10s even longer ?

besides all the technical reasons for either it is simply NOT ORIGINAL! , but i suppose I dont have rubber tires i have compound ones , thats bad enough!

Nick fact is these days you don't really have to look under a cars bonnet ..........you cant do anything anyway so if it wont go call the towies , I am not intimidated by electronics at all its just that i simply dont understand it ... I can do basic electrical stuff but thats about it... if i put a screwdriver across my points i know i have power , I can SEE IT !

I recon we should go back to Model As ..they had 3 wires going to the engine , that was 2 too many in my opinion


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Hi

I might as well add my tuppence worth. I'd say if you timing bush is shot, then for the time and cost involved, I'd recommend upgrading to the needle/ball end-feed for the timing side.
I agree with Nick that it has to be machined correctly, but when done it all fits together straight off every time. And as you pointed out the Brg run's on the inner race and NOT on the actual crankshaft, plus, once fitted unlikely to wear out in your lifetime.

Pre 67 engines do require a little weld on the crankcase to bring the oil-way transfer to the inner timing case if going for the integral system. Again I'll agree with Nick in that its not a good idea to weld on the timing cover due to the potential chances of distortion, however its easy to make a seal carrier block which can be bolted or held in place with modern metal adhesives, the plus side in end-feeding the crank is that you have gained at least an extra 25% oil supply to the big-ends which wasn't available with the bush. So your old oil pump is good to go, I'm assuming it's been rebuilt correctly.

As for the EI, well I'll leave that to better qualified people to comment on. But I think it'll be something else that will break or fall off when you're out on your "Old Crate" that will stop you getting home. Sorry Nick couldn't resist steeling your description.

In advance, sorry if I've hurt anyones feelings.

John

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I’d agree with that John. The next motor I do will be end fed. The guy that does the work for me does a good job of the bush and I’ve seen engines he’s doing e cover over 20k and still no oil light flickering on at tick over. But for the cost and more so when you start putting A10 cranks into A65 cases etc, the bearing conversion cost is negligible in comparison to the work involved when setting it with a bush.


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For what it's worth, I agree with both sides on the needle bearing conversion!? But I haven't done it. I have had two Trispark units fail on the Tbolt. Love the simplicity but apparently too much heat in the points hole. If the third one fails, I have a Boyer in a box.


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Well, as the OP of this thread I guess I feel somewhat compelled to comment on the wealth of input that it generated. One thing's for sure...I think I definitely got my money's worth!

A few observations:
I'm inclined to believe that an adj. reamer can work. However I think there are certain requirements necessary for this to happen. Among these are: a quality, sharp ( preferably unused ) brand name tool, an extended pilot to the drive side race and ( most importantly ) large amounts of patience and dexterity on the part of the operator to not rush the operation. Certainly this process worked for Thunderlizard. His bike's bottom end doesn't make strange noises and does make good oil pressure.
I tend to agree with Ignoramus regarding reamers though: "they want to follow an existing hole". So if the alignment isn't too far off to begin with, you'll probably be alright. The use of "shell reamers" as mentioned by CBS may be an exception to the above rule as well.

As pointed out by Nick, if using a mill, indicate off the parting face rather than relying on the timing side outer surface to be dead flat.... good info. He also makes mention of the fact that the hole (for the bush) in the timing side case may be knackered from 50 yrs. of use and abuse. This is definitely true of the hole in the case of the '70 engine I'm working on right now. I suppose it could be cleaned up with a light "kiss" from a cutter as long as you're dead sure of concentricity with the drive side bearing race (seems to me this is one place where an appropriate sized reamer might be ideal ).
Nick's comment that these bikes were basically the Fords and Chevys of their era is worth remembering. They employed good engineering practice for mass produced machines that probably no one working at BSA ever dreamed would still be on the road +50 yrs. later. As such, they don't require that a person be a "rocket scientist" to work on them when competent mechanical/engineering skills should be more than adequate. This leads me to seriously contemplate giving this operation a go on the mill myself. Thanks to Ray Elliott's post, if I manage to go through several bushings before getting it right at least I know I'll be in good company!

I also still feel that the end feed bearing conversion is a good way to go. But as I mentioned early in this thread Ed V is the only shop doing it in the U.S. that I’m aware of and he’s got a fair back log of engines awaiting that conversion.

Regarding EI, I don't have anything against it....but there was that ONE TIME when I fried the primary on my A65 and was still able to successfully complete the 100mi. trip back home by virtue of/thanks to the points/battery system; of course this was before cell phones, so there really wasn't much alternative….

Many Thanks to all who have contributed their knowledge and thoughts....as always, very much appreciated.

Phil

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Quote
But as I mentioned early in this thread Ed V is the only shop doing it in the U.S. that I’m aware of and he’s got a fair back log of engines awaiting that conversion.

Ed does great work, but so does Frank Deihl. Frank has been doing them for years. Classic Cycle Works Georgetown SC [email protected]

A lot of people who fit new timing side bushings finish sizing the bushing so as little material has to be removed from the crankshaft. They bore/ream hole until it cleans up and then have the crankshaft ground to give it the required .001" to .0015" clearance. They don't grind the shaft first and then size the hole. It is far easier to grind the shaft accurately as it is to ream/bore the bearing in the case. Also you only have to remove only the amount required from the crankshaft, and not go in increments of .010". There is no law that you have to go in .010" increments.

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John,

I knew that Frank Deihl used to do these conversions but it's been some time since I last saw his name come up with regard to still doing them.
Good to know he's another possibly available source. I'll try getting in touch with him.
Thanks for the tip and the additional info regarding the timing side bush....appreciate it.

Phil

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I have not worked on a twin with a bush for many years. When I last worked on my A10 the main bearing bush was a steel housing with a steel backed bush of similar composition to a big end shell. Putting a reamer anywhere near it would have ruined it.
My Aprilia has plain bush main bearings, these are split shells like big ends pressed into the crankcases
Has the idea of reaming come from after market solid bronze bushes?


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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
I have not worked on a twin with a bush for many years. When I last worked on my A10 the main bearing bush was a steel housing with a steel backed bush of similar composition to a big end shell. Putting a reamer anywhere near it would have ruined it.
My Aprilia has plain bush main bearings, these are split shells like big ends pressed into the crankcases
Has the idea of reaming come from after market solid bronze bushes?

The original A10 bushes were steel housing filled with white metal ... you are dead right ( as i tried to explain earlier) a reamer would tear super soft material like that to bits The Original A65 bushes were steel with some mystery liner with a very thing copper colored coating. a reamer would also be the wrong tool

reamers are only ok for comparatively hard materials like bronze in bushes .


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Originally Posted by Ignoramus
Originally Posted by Andy Higham
I have not worked on a twin with a bush for many years. When I last worked on my A10 the main bearing bush was a steel housing with a steel backed bush of similar composition to a big end shell. Putting a reamer anywhere near it would have ruined it.
My Aprilia has plain bush main bearings, these are split shells like big ends pressed into the crankcases
Has the idea of reaming come from after market solid bronze bushes?

The original A10 bushes were steel housing filled with white metal ... you are dead right ( as i tried to explain earlier) a reamer would tear super soft material like that to bits The Original A65 bushes were steel with some mystery liner with a very thing copper colored coating. a reamer would also be the wrong tool

reamers are only ok for comparatively hard materials like bronze in bushes .


With that in mind... if you used one of the solid one piece phosphor bronze bushes.. would the reamer be ok then?


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yes Alan a reamer will cut ok on bronze (in fact very well either dry with no lube or a drop or 2 of kerosene) , My issue all along hasnt been with using a reamer for sizing just the trying to make a reamer cut elliptically


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