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#839084 02/04/21 10:36 pm
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It may exist somewhere already, and if not I'm not sure what would be the best format, but I wonder if a database of the correct finishes Chrome, Cad, Polish, Paint etc and also modern equivalent paint color codes etc for as many parts as possible might be an achievable and usable tool. Something that we all could add to and would build over time perhaps. Something searchable by Manufacturer and Part Number possibly.

Any thoughts?

Ian
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1965 T120R
1968 T100C
1968 T120R
1973 T150V
1974 Rickman CR A75
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Ian Ashdown #839105 02/05/21 2:05 am
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Hello; the colors would be no problem if you have access to a good shop but the type of paint could be because Duco and other types of paints used on cars and motorcycles are not used any more. Now is used PU; that is somewhat similar but not exactly; however, is a better paint that do not chip like Duco.

Ian Ashdown #839133 02/05/21 11:26 am
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Originally Posted by Ian Ashdown
but I wonder if a database of the correct finishes Chrome, Cad, Polish, Paint etc and also modern equivalent paint color codes etc for as many parts as possible might be an achievable and usable tool.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts ? While this is a marvellous idea - it sounds like Nirvana - where do I apply !!
But, the problem here is that someone has to do it. Its a HUGE task ...

I'd comment that I've got several books that approach this idea, perhaps peripherally a bit.
"The Development History of the Triumph xxx model" by J.R. Nelson
And "How to restore your Harley Davidson WLA" by Bruce Palmer.

[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]

Now while this 2nd book is obviously not on British Bikes, it goes into tremendous detail on EVERY part in a WLA,
to the tiniest detail. This is a monster book, it must have taken decades to research and write.
Oh that every bike maker and model and year was so well researched and published.

Very very very few folks would be knowledgeable enough to write a book on any model of motorcycle ??
Thats what these forums are for ?
You can ask the question "what finish/colour was the speedo drive on my 1965 xxx bike. ?
And you might get 10 different answers. And they might all be right !!

The NOC are currently revising their info on this for Nortons.
The current listing they have is decades out of date, incomplete and in some cases quite inaccurate.
I'd think it will be A LOT of work to improve it much ...

Duco was only used on some years of cheaper bikes - its nitrocellulose paint.
Its still available in India, and in limited supplies in the UK.
Enamels were widely used on British motorcycles, for many a year.
In tanks which were designed for DIPPING into !!! And then oven baked.
To replicate that these days is quite a limited market.
Modern paints have largely taken over the market.
Powdercoat is also getting some airplay.
Its not exactly the same (PU ?) its melted plastic.
Owners choice .... ??

Nickel ruled the roost for many a year, until approx 1930. (bit earlier for some specific makes)
Anything else on anything prior to that is probably quite wrong.
But that doesn't stop some folks ...
After that it gets trickier. Ask ... ?

May we ask what specific bike(s) you are interested in ?

Ian Ashdown #839136 02/05/21 2:03 pm
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...nitrocellulose paint is a wood paint not so used on metal. May be in some places or brands? Oven paints and duco, yes. Duco was not cheap; is what most cars were painted some decades ago. PU is the paint used some years ago in most cars; no most cars use polyester tints and clears.

Ian Ashdown #839140 02/05/21 2:17 pm
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I keep pics of bikes from internet i may buy at some point. Lots of good original examples for reference of finishes on hardware. On my Harley the Bruce Palmers book is my Bible for 48 Panhead.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Ian Ashdown #839172 02/05/21 6:56 pm
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Thanks for all the constructive help!

As mentioned in one reply, I too go to the internet and pull as many pictures as I can find for any project I’m working on, and these are incredibly helpful, but ‘the devil is in the details’ and it is often difficult to identify if a particular part is cad plated or silver painted? On the ‘68 T100 in working on the head stays are peeling chrome. We’re they chromed from the factory or, as I suspect, painted black? Having established the correct finish, assuming there is ‘one’ correct answer, it would be good if there were somewhere to record that information for others following to access.

I did some research on Wiki software yesterday and it could be a solution, but is clearly way beyond my capabilities! If a user accessible Excel Spreadsheet could be accessible from this site perhaps, everyone could access it and possibly upload date do it.

I think the paint colors etc could be part of this, the original colors for reference seem quite well known, but as with my recent request for a currently available color for the front hub on m ‘68 T100, I was provided with an readily available spray can equivalent, it would be great if that were recorded in some accessible location.

Just trying to stimulate some discussion here, and hoping this may lead to some ideas and a possible solution.

More thoughts and ideas please!

Ian
SoCal


1965 T120R
1968 T100C
1968 T120R
1973 T150V
1974 Rickman CR A75
Ian Ashdown #839179 02/05/21 8:35 pm
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A lot of the colour names are meaningless. The only way to be sure of a colour is to use its RAL number or BS number.
Vehicle manufacturers either mixed their own paint which could vary batch to batch or bought off the shelf paint and gave it a fancy name


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Ian Ashdown #839181 02/05/21 8:50 pm
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Example, Triumph's white was called "Ivory" in the U.K., but was labeled "Alasakan White" in USA sales literature and parts books.

Ian Ashdown #839184 02/05/21 10:04 pm
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Triumph paint was supplied by (I think) three suppliers and because of the way the painters worked, could be different on each bike.
John Crichlow in the uk is an expert in cellulose paint and supplies Triumph paint based on examples he has.

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Ian Ashdown #839187 02/05/21 10:38 pm
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Are/were Triumphs really painted in cellulose paint ??

I've seen a road test of a little Villiers lightweight, and they specifically mentioned the makers had
cheaped out on the finish and done the handlebars in cellulose.

I know Indian used it in 1931 (Du Pont ownership and all that) , and before 1931 was out they had reverted back to enamel.
They found that owners polishing their paint a lot had worn it off in patches, so it was back to bare steel !!!

I've got a few stray Triumph parts inc a few tanks, and I've tested them for cellulose. (wipe them over with brake fluid).
The paint washes off if its cellulose. No need for expensive stripping chemicals ..

Ian Ashdown #839188 02/05/21 10:42 pm
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What is the explanation for PU paint then. Polyurethane ??
Thats not exactly a traditional finish, it can only be recent stuff ... ?

Ian Ashdown #839210 02/06/21 5:11 am
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Duco is the trade name for a Nitrocellulose paint developed by Dupont for the auto industry which for all intent and purpose is the same as the Cellulose paint used by Triumph until their demise.


And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

Ian Ashdown #839212 02/06/21 5:50 am
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Is it in print anyplace that Triumph used cellulose/lacquer paints ?

I've some misc Triumph parts, and a wipe over with thinners doesn't seem to dissolve any paint off ?
And several unit-Triumph frames clearly have been enamelled, they are tough stuff.

Gasoline/petrol is sometimes capable of washing off cellulose paint if you splash any anywhere,
Triumph wouldn't have used that would they. ??
I know some cars in the 50s used it, and it was rather fragile.
It requires rather a lot of coats to get any depth to it too.

And just because you can now buy cans of cellulose type paints that say they are for Triumphs
doesn't mean thats what they were painted with originally ?

Ian Ashdown #839213 02/06/21 6:16 am
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Originally Posted by Ian Ashdown
I did some research on Wiki software yesterday and it could be a solution, but is clearly way beyond my capabilities! If a user accessible Excel Spreadsheet could be accessible from this site perhaps, everyone could access it and possibly upload date do it.
l

While thats a great idea, in the real world thats going to be a huge amount of work for someone..

Getting accurate info on even one model is quite a challenge, I can't imagine that thousands of years/models from many many many makers is going to be any simple task ??

Ian Ashdown #839217 02/06/21 8:17 am
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Rohan, it's in the workshop Manual under paint refinishing. I should have been clear though. The cycle parts were stove enamelled, only the tank and guards/bodywork were painted.


And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

Ian Ashdown #839219 02/06/21 9:12 am
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May I ask which workshop Manual this is for ?

I've got a few Tiger Cub tanks, and they don't seem to be lacquer.

Ian Ashdown #839233 02/06/21 2:27 pm
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Hi R Moulding; I think but not sure enough, that the Duco used on cars are not the same than the one used on wood. Hence I mentioned that the NC is used mainly on wood furniture etc.

Rohan #839246 02/06/21 7:01 pm
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Originally Posted by Rohan
May I ask which workshop Manual this is for ?

I've got a few Tiger Cub tanks, and they don't seem to be lacquer.

It is shown in my Workshop Manual, 650 cc twins, 1963 to 1970, REF 99-0883/0889, SECTION E17, page E21. Mention is made to "Cellulose Thinners" and "Lacquer."

Regarding database scope, RS Bike Paints claim to have 45,000 formulas dating back to 1902.

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Is this in a Triumph factory Manual, or an aftermarket Manual ?

I wonder if 'cellulose' in this context is what is called acrylic lacquer in this neck of the woods.
Not the same as Duco, which hereabouts was nitrocellulose lacquer.
Its difficult (impossible ?) to find anywhere that explains all this stuff ...

I've seen lots of chitchat about RS Bike Paints.
Apart from being a tad expensive for the quantity they supply,
there was mention they only supply cellulose type paint. (??)
This is a bit limiting when many makers used enamels, often stove baked.

I must try my Tiger Cub tanks, see if various thinners will dissolve any paint.
(they are a bit past being concours).

Ian Ashdown #839260 02/06/21 9:59 pm
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This is a factory produced Manual. By cellulose they mean cellulose, but again they are talking about the bodywork not the frame and cycle parts that were stove enamelled. RS paints supply modern auto paints and not cellulose. If you want original colours in cellulose you need to talk to John Chritchlow.


And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

Ian Ashdown #839270 02/06/21 11:53 pm
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I've decided I don't know what your 'cellulose' paints are.
Unless they are Duco lacquer* - which was made obsolete here probably 40 years back.

These chip or scratch very easily - although they are likewise easy to touch up.
Rather akin to fingernail varnish .
Compared to baked/stoved enamel, rather low rent ... ?

If RS BikePaint supply 2k catalysed and isocyanate paints, these are barely DIY stuff.
Hope someone warns folks ...

*
[Linked Image from oldgas.com]

Ian Ashdown #839296 02/07/21 1:31 pm
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I've decided that 'cellulose' has to be nitrocellulose lacquer. There is nothing else it could be.
Sold throughout Asia, India in particular as Duco.

Doesn't seem to be available in Oz at all. Doubt you can mail order it either, it'd be dangerous goods ?

[Linked Image from 4.bp.blogspot.com]

Ian Ashdown #839299 02/07/21 1:56 pm
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What about Nortons, Velocette and others during thirties, were they stove enameled or not?

Rohan #839314 02/07/21 7:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Rohan
If RS BikePaint supply 2k catalysed and isocyanate paints, these are barely DIY stuff.
Hope someone warns folks ...

*
[Linked Image from oldgas.com]

The 2K that RS sell is not in an aerosol, I don’t think cellulose comes under isocyanate Either? But the only paints they will supply in an aerosol are cellulose and acrylic which then needs a lacquer as it’s a flat paint not gloss.

If you want to buy 2k etc off them then you will need proper spraying equipment, air compressor etc. If your going that far then I’d hope you would have a reasonable care for your Health and Safety before commuting to the purchase.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Ian Ashdown #839328 02/07/21 9:57 pm
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If you can hang about until the uk weather improves, I have two tiger Cubs to paint.
I am using RS paints, some of which are water soluble and will top with 2K aerosol (with full ppe)

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