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#836257 01/11/21 1:41 am
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Just trying to refurbish my motor and came across the following:
1 - Can't remove sludge trap end cap in crank, its jammed solid. I was hoping to reuse it but should I just drill it out? Is the thread BSF?
2 - When I removed the valves, both inlet guides tops were broken off - is putting in replacements a DIY job?


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1970 TR6C
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Threads are 7/8" X 20

Putting in replacements can be done yourself with the proper tools

Make sure your guides have no carbon build-up on the bottom, if so, remove the carbon prior

You do not want to push carbon through the guide holes as they will damage the bore finish and size

I like to use a dedicated tool to remove and install guides

Keep everything inline and Concentric to the seat

(Don't forget to heat the head!)

Last edited by C.B.S; 01/11/21 1:51 am.

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Thanks, I will probably knock them out the other way as they now have no tops on them. unless there is a reason not to?


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Hi Tiger_cub, Is the slot in plug still good! If so don’t damage it. If damaged I’d try to clean it up with cutoff wheel in Dremel tool.

Be sure to drill out staking put there from factory or by someone.

Buy a drag link socket of suitable size 1/2” drive. Grind end of socket to fit slot in screw perfectly. I mean perfectly.

Heat plug & area with propane soldering torch unit spit freely boils. The heat is very important on tight ones. Any really.

If possible use 1/2” drive impact gun set to medium. The shocking action really helps tight ones.

No gun? Put socket on breaker bar or ratchet handle that you can put clamp over end. Put socket in slot attach breaker bar or ratchet on socket. Place very large C-clamp across crank such C-clamp holds wrench in tight. Remember crank end is very hot. With gloves & pot holder counter hold wrench well. Loosen plug slightly. You may need pipe
on wrench handle to increase leverage.

Once plug moves. Adjust tension on c-clamp. Loosen plug a little more. Adjust clamp etc. until plug turns out.

Lots of ways to go wrong drilling out plug. If needed & if still possible grind new slot 90deg for new chance.

The key is to not damage slot in first place.

Be sure to heat flywheel bolt area especially where threads are until spit boils. It takes a while.

Trust me on this. Make tube puller as shown in Vintage bike magazine. Tech section. Sludge trap. Or pM me & Ill email you
Photos. Use drill bit be hand to drill sludge out to allow puller to be installed. This easy & allows tube to be reused.
Don


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Thanks for the tips all, I had already tried the C clamp trick but just couldn't get it to move. I drilled round, cut across two opposite sides and collapsed it into itself which took a while but I was careful and haven't damaged threads! Sludge trap tomorrow. I don't think I will have much luck at the local bolt shop getting a 7/8 x 20 TPI bolt to make a new plug (equates to UNEF size)!


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Originally Posted by tiger_cub
Thanks, I will probably knock them out the other way as they now have no tops on them. unless there is a reason not to?

That should work.

Heat the cylinder head first.


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Quote
1 - Can't remove sludge trap end cap in crank, its jammed solid. I was hoping to reuse it but should I just drill it out? Is the thread BSF?

After the slot is too mangled for that to be used I have drilled a hole in the plug and then driven an allen key into the hole and that has given enough purchase for it to undo the cap. Fit a Morgo plug with allen socket for the next unfortunate disassembler.

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They are actually 7/8" CEI (or more correctly BSCy), but you've even less chance of finding that at your friendly blt shop. It is worth lashing out the cash on searching on the 70-3905 part number and getting an allen socket replacement, so much easier.
HTH

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Hi Tiger_cub, Good going! Glad you got it out. That was real fight!

I'm sure you know this. There is oilway at base of threads. Measure & do the math so the new plug doesn't partially (or fully) block the oilway. I feel Loctite 273 or the like is good plan for plug. The main thing besides working loose, is any oil leakage by the threads takes oil pressure from the rods. More important at lower RPM as pump doesn't have as much volume. Heating until spit boils will release 273 like it wasn't there.
Don


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Spit boils at 212°F. Recommended temp for release of Loctite 273 is 250°C (482°F). If Loctite releases around 212°F it didn't cure properly.

Many people don't understand how Loctite works. Like a lot things Loctite brand has changed over the years. Originally it required an active metal (iron and steel are active metals (but not plated)). It needed to pick up an ion from an active metal to work.

Also oily surfaces prevented it from curing properly.

So unless you used the REQUIRED primer to an inactive metal, and cleaned the surfaces free of, oil it was not working the way you thought. This often gave people the sense that they could use it and take things apart with normal tools. If you are using Loctite brand you well could have to heat the parts to a point where you are changing the temper of teh metal.

Over time Loctite changed the formulation. It now is formulated to tolerate oily surfaces and more importantly contains the missing ion. But remember not all products sold as thread locker are up to the new formualtion.

There are places where Loctite Blue (medium strength) is appropriate on a Triumph. The sludge tube plug isn't one of them. Sealant yes, but Loctite locking compound NO!. There were hundreds of thousands of Triumphs (and BSA for that mater) that ran without selnt of thread locker with out oil leaks or the plug coming loose. In 60 odd years of working on these motors I have never seen one come loose, or a crankcase damaged where on had come loose in the past. What I have seen is numerous broken crankshafts where the break started at the point where the original staking was drilled out. I drill the face of the plug to remove the divot, so I don't recomending adding additional "retaining" divots (stress points) where cracks can start for a very good reason.

As far as heating something to release the Loctite I have seen too many crankshafts that were heated past the point where the journal turned straw color, or to the point where some were dark purple tending toward black. This is America, if some is good more is better.

After seeing what damage people have done with Loctite I am a firm believer you should be required to have a license to buy it, or at least marked for professional use only. Use some ThreeBond or your choice of thread SEALER.

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Wouldn't you know it - the biggest tap I have is 14mm, it just slides in. I will have to try and borrow a 5/8 tap......Also trying to measure the thread TPI, it doesn't seem to be 20 or 26, more like 24.


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Removing the trap the easy way with homemade tool. [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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Unless something has been bodged, the 650's up to 1971 (model) were 7/8" cycle, @ 20 TPI, part no TPI 70-3905. '72 on had a thinner plug, still 20 TPI but 7/8 UNEF, slightly different tread shape, part no 71-2800. You should be able to measure the TPI on the remains of the old plug. There are several forum threads about this if you search on Triumph sludge trap threads. I have a tap that I use to clean up the first couple of threads in the crank, but not much use to you!

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What happens if you build a 650 engine with no sludge trap, good filtration and use a modern engine oil to keep the sludge in suspension?

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
What happens if you build a 650 engine with no sludge trap, good filtration and use a modern engine oil to keep the sludge in suspension?


Probably nothing happens.


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I hope so, I'm (slowly) building a 270 degree crank motor based around a Norton crank, no sludge trap possible!

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Hi, Crank is like a car motor then.

Sludge trap was a cheap way to reduce heavy particulars getting to the rod bearings.
Don


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I managed to removed the oil tube, as the neighbour had an M16 tap (almost = 5/8). I put this in a couple of turns, heated the crank then used a bolt & nut to draw it out. It was tight but came out fairly OK. I am going to the bolt shop today to see what they have in 7/8 x 20 - not expecting too much. I also found this, which is very useful:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/2/main/59734/type/thread

Last edited by tiger_cub; 01/14/21 1:03 am.

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Your bike used BSCy, UNF thread form has the same angle BUT NOT the same shape (strictly speaking the thread is UNEF). Get the proper plug 70-3905, they are easy enough to get. You can use any 7/8 x 20 TPI tap just to clean up damage on the first couple of threads, don't force the plug. Its best to polish out any punch marks as well, any stress raisers here equate to a broken crank

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Got it all done now, cleaned up the threads with a 1/4 whitworth tap (also 20 tpi). Just wondered if PTFE tape would be OK to seal the blanking plug?


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They don't leak without tape or sealant worth worrying about, I personally use low strength Loctite 222, though John Healy frowns on that - it's not a big deal either way, they don't ever seem to come out, I'd just hate to be the first when it's someone elses engine!


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