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Our own Ed Dunham is a lawyer. Perhaps he could take a hand in running things for a bit....


Be guided by facts that you can observe yourself, along with knowledge of how people have behaved during similar periods in history.
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Elevator mechanic should be able to change the cab light, contract should not permit charging for travelling time, otherwise it's a bottomless pit.

In Victorian London, there were up to 12 postal deliveries a day to domestic addresses; it was therefore possible to write to someone first thing to invite them to lunch on that day and to receive a reply accepting the invite by mid-morning.

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
In Victorian London, there were up to 12 postal deliveries a day to domestic addresses; it was therefore possible to write to someone first thing to invite them to lunch on that day and to receive a reply accepting the invite by mid-morning.

In the little village near here called "Evergreen" (and other towns on the railroad) it was like that too, up until the 1940s.

It was way out in the country, but the railroad ran through it and there was a post office there. 10 trains a day came through each way, each of them dropped off a mail bag "on the move" onto a hook by the tracks, and the postmaster would hold up a bag on a stick and they would "hook" it as it came through.

You could write a letter to someone in Roanoke Virginia 100 miles away, post it in the morning, and by afternoon you could check your mail and a reply from Roanoke would be in there. Of course, if you didn't live near the railroad track it was a bit harder as the roads then were never paved and nothing to brag about, but if you used the trains properly it was almost as fast as Email!

Sad to see the trains go, I still think it's silly for 200 trucks to be hauling coast-to-coast loads, with 200+ drivers, when one train with 3 dudes could haul the same load. Local deliveries, in-state, sure, use a truck, but across the country? We could reduce the traffic loads on the Interstates by half ...

Lannis


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Rail shipments long distance make sense but the rail system just can't handle more traffic, or can it?


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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Rail shipments long distance make sense but the rail system just can't handle more traffic, or can it?

No idea. I don't know how many railroads have been through the "Rails to Trails" thing; certainly a lot of them around here in the past generation.

In my town, there are only about 10 freight trains per day. There could be 4 times that many, easily.

I suspect that the (very powerful) trucking lobby has something to do with why we have no collective strategy for long-haul rail. In state/short haul/local, certainly trucks can't be beat. The rest of the world doesn't seem to have a big problem with it.

I know that if I retired to Cornwall, I wouldn't even own a car. Get off the plane in London, take the train to Plymouth, change to the one for Penzance, 80 MPH across the country, hop off the train onto a bus to St. Just, and home. My bike would be in the little shed behind the house with a basket on the back if I had more shopping than I wanted to walk with .... Can't do it here. My Car = My Testicles to most of the guys in the country, and there's no way 'round it .... and there's no one on the horizon that will support infrastructure for the transition. Around the big cities like DC, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, I suspect that the cars will eventually .... just ..........come .................to .........................a ........................................stop and sit there on the freeway.

Lannis

Last edited by Lannis; 01/10/21 11:39 pm.

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As far as I am aware, there's no national railway system that operates without a subsidy. In the UK, we've managed to achieve the requirement for a subsidy and also extortionate fares for passengers.

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Originally Posted by Lannis
[quote=Dibnah]

Sad to see the trains go, I still think it's silly for 200 trucks to be hauling coast-to-coast loads, with 200+ drivers, when one train with 3 dudes could haul the same load. Local deliveries, in-state, sure, use a truck, but across the country? We could reduce the traffic loads on the Interstates by half ...

Lannis

Once again talking from the outside
Rail works effciently only for bulk going from one depot to another depot.
Unfortunately people live all over the place so rail freight does not work.
Then when you add the cost ofgeting the freight to the rail hub then picking it up at the other end, it is often faster & cheaper to truck.
While rail employs very few people to actually drive the train, it uses a massive number of people to load & unload and is there fore a product of the times when machines were expensive & labour was cheap.

Then there is scheduling which if you are not carefullhas you neding up with 90 % of the carriages empty at a major city which then have to be shunted back to where ever the freight originates empty.
I can remember going down to the Darling Harbour freight yard before it was redeveloped intoa tourist trap.
There would 3 trains worth of carriages there for the 3 trains that went overnight up the coast and 3 trains worth of carriages for the trains gong south and yet another for the single west train.
Drivrs had to drive around the yard to drop their freight off at the appropriate carriage
Each carrige had 2 people attending it , one to check the freight ( including weighing it ) and another to pack it in the carriage .
If I had both pallets and loose goods going to the same place then that meant doing two laps.
One for the pallets which went on the early train and another for the loose goods which went on the last ( mail ) train.

I would hate to see the size of the loading yard for USA rail where there could be freight going to well over 1000 cities .
USa rail freight did what they could.
You invented the 5 track transhipping cross loader where up to 5 trains would park side by side and a stack of gantry crains would shift containers from one train to another plus load & unload onto trucks
But again this takes a llong while so if a container has to change trains a couple of times, the truck has already delivered the container and is on it's way back befor the train even arrives.

Then there is the volume thing
A truck turns up and one fork lift driver can empty it in 10 minutes.
A train comes in with 20 containers , each & every one has to be lifted off the cariages before the forks can start work
Usually there is only a few docks at the right height so the forks can enter & exit.

The idea that you can replace all of the dangerous dirty polluting trucks with nice clean trains is a pipe dream of ignorant idiots who have never worked in a freight yard , logistics yard or even driven a truck in their life but they have googled it so are now experts.

Woolworth, the counrties largest supermarket have 5 logistics centers for Greater Sydney covering aroun 300 acres in total.
The incoming goods are scheduled to arrive in a specify order at a specific time and you are allower 3 minutes outside your delivery window or the delivery gets cancelled.
On the other side oof the dock are the empty trucks that take the goods to the individual shops.
So the goods come out of one truck, the go directly into the back of another till the outward truck is full then it leaves.
You can't do that with rail.
Average turn around time for an inwards truck is 11 minutes and 15 for an outward truck.
The other major supermarket Coles has a similar system


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Hi BSA WM20;
regarding the train; at least here the gov shut down the train long time ago in favor of the trucks. Here is an small country and the main roads are not so many. The asphalt of 1km of road cost 1 000 000 Dollars and the only ones that kill that are the trucks (mostly with logs etc). I do not see a bike ruining that expensive asphalt.
How would be wrong to have a train that can carry all those logs from a city to the port?
Trucker syndicate is super strong. Populism reign here.

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
As far as I am aware, there's no national railway system that operates without a subsidy. In the UK, we've managed to achieve the requirement for a subsidy and also extortionate fares for passengers.

That's probably true. But as reverb notes, the trucking industry doesn't operate without subsidies either ....

Lannis


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In the UK, the tax take from road users far exceeds expenditure on the roads, GBP40 billion vs GBP11 billion in 2019.

Rail certainly has its uses e.g. carrying coal from the pithead or the port to the power station.

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Rail shipments long distance make sense but the rail system just can't handle more traffic, or can it?
Rail still depends (for the most part) on trucks/vans to ferry the cargo away from the tracks. Sometimes several hundred of miles.

...and the rail capacity is indeed quite high even in a Covid-depressed market.


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Originally Posted by Lannis
In my town, there are only about 10 freight trains per day. There could be 4 times that many, easily.

Perhaps you are failing to consider the overall operation end-to-end, whist only looking at your local depot.

Each depot requires sidings (spurs) and rail yards to shuffle partial strings out in order to get at specific containers which then are moved separately (often in groups).

I don't believe the typical metro rail yard could easily handle 4 times the traffic. Just because YOURS might be able to, it would have an immediate (negative) effect on many (not all) other depots as well.


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Originally Posted by GrandPaul
Originally Posted by Lannis
In my town, there are only about 10 freight trains per day. There could be 4 times that many, easily.

Perhaps you are failing to consider the overall operation end-to-end, whist only looking at your local depot.

Each depot requires sidings (spurs) and rail yards to shuffle partial strings out in order to get at specific containers which then are moved separately (often in groups).

I don't believe the typical metro rail yard could easily handle 4 times the traffic. Just because YOURS might be able to, it would have an immediate (negative) effect on many (not all) other depots as well.

I'm not suggesting that huge numbers of trains begin stopping in Appomattox, although they used to. I can remember my father, in his CPO uniform, standing next to the depot, flagging down the train, he'd hop on, and off to Norfolk he'd go to his duty station.

I was referring to the capacity of the tracks to pass trains through. All the objections can be addressed IF we were to decide that we would use the massive hauling capacity of trains to its full extent, to help reduce the congestion and carnage on the highways. And NOT suggesting that professional truck drivers are at fault for road crashes, but have you LOOKED at Interstate 81 from Canada to Tennessee? Nose to tail trucks for 400 miles ....

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More than 3.5 million people work as truck drivers. (2019 figure).


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Originally Posted by Lannis
...have you LOOKED at Interstate 81 from Canada to Tennessee? Nose to tail trucks for 400 miles ....
I have lived along the I-35 corridor all my life. Laredo (at the southern end) if the U.S.'s highest traffic inland port. I know ALL about truck traffic, and have lived with it all my life...


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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
More than 3.5 million people work as truck drivers. (2019 figure).

A fine bunch and a good career path. A big-box company truck driver that is willing to take overnight trips and extra time (subject to logbook limits) can make well north of $100,000 a year.

As I've said about half-a-dozen times, though, I recognize that trucks are the only solution that supports our lifestyle for some types of transport. For others, I don't believe that trucks are the right way to go, despite an extremely powerful lobby that maintains the status quo.

Lannis


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"Sad to see the trains go, I still think it's silly for 200 trucks to be hauling coast-to-coast loads, with 200+ drivers, when one train with 3 dudes could haul the same load."

200 vs 3
197 x ? unemployed.


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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
"Sad to see the trains go, I still think it's silly for 200 trucks to be hauling coast-to-coast loads, with 200+ drivers, when one train with 3 dudes could haul the same load."

200 vs 3
197 x ? unemployed.

That's 197 not on the highway. See all the other expert posts about all the people that need to work on the railroad to load/unload etc. Maybe it's 197!

My granddaddy was a railroad man. Worked on the mail train from Washington DC to Monroe, Virginia (yep, that Monroe ...

"They gave him his orders In Monroe, Virginia Sayin' 'Steve, you're way behind time. This is not 38, this is old 97, you must put her into Spencer on time ..'")

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So the truckers do their own loading and unloading?
Or is that a question for the experts?


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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
So the truckers do their own loading and unloading?
Or is that a question for the experts?

All I've got is an opinion...! Like everyone else,I'll warrant....

Last edited by Lannis; 01/12/21 6:53 pm.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
So the truckers do their own loading and unloading?
Or is that a question for the experts?
It varies from truck to truck, and load to load. Some truckers and/or their "shotgun" riders load, but many docks require the driver to sit in their truck.

I know that Keyboard & J.C.Motors always load the bikes they pick up, and always unload the ones they drop off. They'll let me lend a hand occasionally, but usually want me standing to the side.

Regional truckers are a mix; some want me to help if they are alone, others don't...

Last edited by GrandPaul; 01/12/21 7:07 pm.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
So the truckers do their own loading and unloading?
Or is that a question for the experts?


truckers in general?

or just motorcycles on pallets?

ive got some 800,000 or 900, 000 miles driving semi trucks, and another million or so in straight trucks. 48 states and canada.


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Originally Posted by kevin
Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
So the truckers do their own loading and unloading?
Or is that a question for the experts?


truckers in general?

or just motorcycles on pallets?

ive got some 800,000 or 900, 000 miles driving semi trucks, and another million or so in straight trucks. 48 states and canada.

Now, right up front here I want to say I'm no expert, and this is just my opinion, and as the saying goes, like something else, everybody has one.
I suspect motorcycles on pallets *are not* held within every second or third reefer I see on the interstate.

So I'll take door #1, truckers in general.
And remember kevin, you would not be considered a typical trucker, as I suspect you hand-bombed every load to make sure the weight was distributed correctly.


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well, there ar eonly three kinds of loads.

a preload is when you show up with an empty trailer and swap it for one that the customer has already loaded-- steel of all kinds, dressed lumber, manufactured hvac equipment. its on the trailer already, so you just add your own straps, chains, and taps and take off, leaving the empty for them to load for spomeone else.

a live load is when you show up and they load you right then and there. lumber, military vehicles, rolls of newsprint, boulders, shipping containers, shingles, farm tractors, could be anything. they load you with their own equipment.

and then there's drop and hook, where you show up somewhere with a loaded trailer, leave it, and drive away with an empty one. or vise versa. usually larger distribution centers like lowes or walmart.

none of thee loads involve the driver doing anything but watching, and you are always forbiddenn to drive their forklift, operate their overhead cranes, or do anything with the loading except to specify how yoou want it placed on the truck. so i can't touch anything, but i customarily work with the crane operators or forklift drivers to put things where i want them.

that's important, because your permissible axle weights are determined by law.i can carry 13,000 or so on the front axle, 34,000 on the drivves, and thenan 40,000 on the rear of a flatbed trailer if the axles are ten feet apart. to stay under the limit of 80,000 pounds i might carry a 47,000 pound steel coil, and i will place it 18 inches to thhe rear of the trailer center in order to not exceed 34,000 in the fron or 40,000 in the rear. there's an art to loading the trbuck that you develop a skill in, because you sometimes have to carry three or four very heavy objects of different wieghts like spulley sheaves for strip mine equipment or plate steel, and a foot either way will exceed an axle weight front or back.

but the only equipment i can personally use to help load is a hand truck oor pallet jack,.in lots of places i am not permitted to help because the help is unionized. groocery supply centers have dedicated lumpers on the premises, who i have to pay to unload the customer's goods onto the customer's dock. they won't let me use thier equipment, because they make money from me.

i've never been anywhere that i was allowed to load or unload the truck

in america you can drive up to 80,000 pounds gross without an overweight permit, so your typical weight is around 79,000 +/-pounds. right now i drive oil field tankers and routinely carry illegal loads of up to 88,000 pounds. sometimes in the bigger trucks we load close to 97,000 pounds. you either do that or you don't have a job.


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
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Originally Posted by kevin
i might carry a 47,000 pound steel coil, and i will place it ...
My Brother-In-Law has 7 warehouses with about 20 overhead cranes and 2 dozen heavy-lift forklifts, on his own rail spurs in 4 locations around Laredo, TX. Almost all he handles is steel for the last 2 decades. I always wondered why those big 'ol trucks only had ONE coil of steel on them; a hundred or more trucks a day, coming and going, with ONE ROLL each!!!


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