Britbike forum

Classic British Spares Klempf British PartsBaxter Cycle BritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM Engineering Lucas Classic Motorcycle Industrial tec supply Hepolite Pistons The Bonneville ShopLowbrow Customs

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Zimm
Zimm
The land of pleasant living
Posts: 329
Joined: August 2001
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Top Posters(30 Days)
quinten 88
Rohan 67
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
quinten 12
Newest Members
Teager, vanGinneke, Gearhard, yornocT120R, robert wilby
11,840 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
6 members (chaterlea25, NickL, L.A.B., bmwr90s, Jon W. Whitley, PFribley), 34 guests, and 84 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#835320 01/03/21 5:01 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
Hello; 10 years ago was the last time that I installed tappet blocks. I did not had the tool so I do not remember how I did it (how I hit its) but I do not used heat if I remember right. Cylinders and blocks were new like this time. Now I bought the tool but I am really afraid to hit the thing bad and brake the cylinders. Also if I warm it I will damage the paint.
Any of you have a better procedure? or is just not to be a fain of heart...
I am thinking to hit its little by little, but may be that way can scrap some material and damage the cylinders?
Do not know how do not damage (bite) the O rings with the procedure. Putting vaseline may be?

Thanks

Triumphs on eBay
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,462
Likes: 44
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,462
Likes: 44
This is the best stuff for O rings.

https://www.fagengine.com/collections/tools/products/p-80-emulsion-temporary-rubber-lubricant

Hope you can find it near where you live. I installed the tappet blocks a long time ago when I had more courage. I had a VERY hard piece of plastic between the block and the hammer. The hardest thing is getting the holes exactly parallel to the cam. Good luck.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
Likes: 29
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
Likes: 29
This is one of the times when good hard blows with a heavy hammer using the correct tool is best. Just tapping risks more damge. I must have done at least 10 over the past couple of months, and as Desco says, getting them in straight is the hardest trick. Once part of the way in, a I put a straight edge on the inside of the TGB and eyeball it straight to the barrel stud holes. If you hit the tool while twisting it, you can get a bit of rotation, you can even knock partly out while twisting before hitting home, easier done than explained!
HTH

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,119
Likes: 102
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,119
Likes: 102
You need to support the flange of the cylinder as you drive the tappet block in. Otherwise you can distort or break the flange.

1 member likes this: MarksterTT
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
Hi Desco; that product is not sold here.

Hi Tinkerer; so do you say that ta tap tap is not the way to go, better couple of big smacks?

Hi DMadigan; I thought about that but I do not see a good way to support the cylinders and hit at the same time. A vice looks not so good but the only way?

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
Hi Reverb, I've always turned cyl upside down & set it on large thick block of wood. Set block on concrete floor. Find a place where wood sets flat & doesn't rock.

I use hammer size/weight of carpenters hammer. (claw hammer). The hammer factory used is in drawing in shop Manual. They do fit tight & need a firm dead blow, not a tap, tap.

I've only done it cold. Heating cyl may help??

I deburr & smooth the bore on cyl & OD of tappet block. I deburr oring groove. There is small taper at the lead in for o-ring to easy by. Make sure this taper is really smooth. I use thin coat of grease as a lube in bore & OD of tappet block. Thin grease on o-ring. ALWAYS USE VITON O-RINGS.

Keep in mind the tappet block isn't straight up/down, but is sloping in cyl, so keep tool & hammer blows at proper angle.

This has worked very well for me several times. I think about the flange breaking off every time, but not had that happen yet.

The block will want to spin as you drive it. As TinkererToo stated you can easily rotate block while it's moving. NEVER EVER attempt to rotate block if it's not moving. I use straight edge through block as TinkererToo does.

I stop with 1/4" to go & measure squareness. Simply putting strong turning pressure on block as you drive it allows it to turn surprisingly easy. I keep measuring as I get closer. If your home & it's not square, put turning tension as you drive it back upwards, then back down. Only need to move it up a few mm. You will soon see how easy it is to align. I shoot for about .001-.002". I feel a very square installation reduces, block, cam/tappet wear.

I've seen blocks installed crooked & the wear pattern on block was decidedly worn crooked. Yet retaining bolt went in easily. There is a lot clearance for retaining bolt, so I don't feel you can really trust the bolt/hole for perfect centering. These little details make a difference on long term wear.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 79
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 79
Hi Reverb,
I think Don is one to advise on this, as you have the proper tool this time.

I have only done it once, on my pre-unit, which didn’t have the O rings of course. I just used a brass drift and a spanner on the upper rectangular section to orient the block. It took a few goes to get the blocks reasonably parallel with the cylinders.
It should be easier with the proper tool, I would hope.

To judge the parallelism with the bores, I put the tappets upside down in the block, a straight edge across them, measure from straight edge to the outside of the cylinders (measurements D1 and D2).
Also measure thickness of cylinders at those points (measurements T1 and T2).

D1 + T1 should be as close to D2 + T2 as you can get. I think vernier calipers are adequate for this, as even a 40 thou (1mm) difference only equates to 0.7 degree.
Even this level of mis-alignment is unlikely to be a problem, as the shoes of the tappets are allowed quite a bit of freedom within the end faces of the blocks.
I’d suggest getting it to 10 thou is pretty damn good, and rather better than truly necessary.
All we’re trying to do is get better than the vast error that is possible by simply relying on the pegging bolt going in.

The reason I didn’t trust to the outside of the cylinder spigots is that I doubt they have been machined to the same precision as the bores.
Also the reason I use the upturned tappets (rather than the block faces) is because I see no reason to think the end faces of the tappet block have been machined true to the tappet bores.

I’ve not had to install blocks with O rings. Is it possible to put a slight chamfer on the leading edge of the barrel hole?
Does the engine even need the feed to the tappet block?
They didn’t leak before that came along and cams since about 1970 no longer needed it as they were nitrided.

Best of.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Likes: 10
M
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
M
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Likes: 10
I can't add much to the previous suggestions and haven't myself installed any tappet blocks in years but when I did I found that the little locating/locking bolt did not always line up precisely with the tappet block hole which had me checking and double checking my block orientation assuming I was off, I wasn't so be careful not to assume that hole lining up means the block is correctly oriented.

I will say that I have found with similar installations, that my rivet gun with a brass plug faced set, makes installation much easier than blows with a hammer. The set is used against the guide tool not against the top of the guide block. Just an alternate method and sometimes a less brutal method but not necessary
since the guide blocks have been installed for eons the conventional way.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
Hi TR7RVMan; upside down? I did not know that the blocks can fit either side?

I will try to find some one with that type of hammer. I have a normal hammer and several sledge hammers.

Hi Koan; I am good visualizing (I work with curves for over 34 years now) but I will use a straight edge.

Hi Markster TT; I remember that the hole aligned with the cylinder hole let the block like not so parallel to the cylinder bores.

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,337
Likes: 22
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,337
Likes: 22
Only thing I can add is...I use a smear of black silastic over the O ring, acts as an additional sealant and also a lubricant as I'm installing. Clean up any excess after install and none gets into the motor at all, so its a win win. If there is oil feed through the barrels to the followers then I don't do this.

1 member likes this: kevin
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
Hi Reverb, I mean you turn cyl upside down & drive the block out.

You set spigots on block to drive in.

It's good you real tool. Not using real correct tool you risk breaking tappet block.

Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
...as mentioned I do not remember how to put the cylinders to install the blocks some 10 years ago. I see that most just put the cylinders on a working bench and start the hitting but what about to put 2 sticks under the cylinders flanges and let it rest there so the bores will be not touching the bench (to prevent the flanges to break) or is just too much care?
Happens that all these new parts cost an small fortune for me included all these months waiting for the parts (and still waiting) plus the customs problems and heavy shipping costs so I am trying to not screw out the job.

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
i just set the cylinders on an old iron automobile brake disc, on top of a concrete floor. i rest them on the liners, not the flange.

then i use the correct two-pronged tool carefully set into the tappet blocks at the correct angle

and bang on it with a three-pound short-handled bricklayer's sledgehammer.

if the hole is sharp-edged, carefully file a chamfer with a round chainsaw sharpening file or some other fine-toothed round file, to save the orings

lube the tappet block before banging it in-- vaseline or wheel bearing grease. if you are so inclined, put a bead of sealant under the rim of the tappet block to seal the top as it finally comes to rest

then smack it sharply. don't hit it with a massive blow, but do hit it sharply.

you will learn how hard to hit it in two or three blows. if it doesn't go in straight, tun the jugs over and tap em out, then try again


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
do you have one of these?

[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]

you must have the tool. if you just use a flat drift you can peen over the holes going in or out and they will have to be reamed to allow the tappets to move freely


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 505
Likes: 121
G
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 505
Likes: 121
Originally Posted by kevin
... you can peen over the holes going in or out and they will have to be reamed to allow the tappets to move freely
Maybe. I have used a copper drift with good results.

John

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,730
Likes: 289
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,730
Likes: 289
Yes--Reverb has the correct tool--I sent it to him in the previous parcel.

Reverb-- I always support the flange when installing the tappet blocks.
I have never cracked or broken the flange but I dont want there to be a first time!
I think the last time I did it I supported the flange on bricks as close as possible to the tappet block hole.
Then as Kevin says---dont mollycoddle it---use firm sharp taps using a 2 or 3 lb hammer.
Use sealant and some grease and put the blocks in the fridge overnight.
If it doesnt go in square then knock it back a little and try again--twisting the tool as appropriate to get the block square.
Best of luck!

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
some of the tools have flats so that you can use a wrench to turn the block as it goes in.

don't try to just twist it around with the wrench. instead, put torque on the wrench as you tap, and it will rotate as it goes down.

they go in and out pretty easily, if you hit the drift hard enough. tap on it gently and it will never move.


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
Originally Posted by George Kaplan
Originally Posted by kevin
... you can peen over the holes going in or out and they will have to be reamed to allow the tappets to move freely
Maybe. I have used a copper drift with good results.

John


i don't doubt that youre right. there's some aluminum drifts available too that are simple rectangular blocks. but when you bang on them they distort, and you have to file em smooth. if you plan on doing it more than one time in your life, i think the machined tool is a good investment.

ive had after-market tappet blocks need to be reamed after installation even when installed correctly. you just have to see whats necessary as you go


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
...necessary as you go: I remember (10 years ago) that the aftermarket tappets were too tight in the aftermarket blocks so I put them in the holes with a bit of oil and started to move them with the hands back and forth very quickly, then cleaned and repeat; tool me like half an hour or more then the tappets moved smooth on the blocks bores.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 39
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 39
I always knock them out and in on the wooden top workbench and haven't compromised a cylinder liner yet. And yes, I've done many, and very often because they're out of line. As Tinkerer says, getting them straight is the only real challenge.
I have used heat on occasion, like after a honing job and I clean the barrels with hot water and soap, and keep the guide blocks in the freezer. They go in real easy then, but I don't find it very hard to do with equal temps either.

SR

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
Hi, I don’t see flats for wrench being needed. Just twisting hard with hand while block is moving it turns well.

I’ve seen the flat end drivers. I’d never use one. Too many ways to go wrong. The made the tool with 2 pegs for a reason.
It works good. Allows you to rotate to get perfect alignment while block is moving. Doesn’t break the tangs on block unless you hold it really crooked. Pegs installed on home made tool is fine.

I don’t know what press fit specs are off top of my head. In case of new parts I’d certainly check it though.

I did one reseal where blocks were quite tight. Trial fitting tappets before removal. We’re very free. After driving blocks fit was tighter. Driving set a tiny burr on bores. Took a large drill bit & removed burr. .001-.002” chamfer removed burr. Burr was very slight, I want best I can do.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
DOPE
Offline
DOPE
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,745
Likes: 116
i instaled some bronze kibblewhite tappet blocks once

they were tight going in and the tapperts would bind because of th interference fit compression. took em out and the tappets wee free.

handed em off to the machinist and he reamed them a bit and theyve been fine


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
...actually my concern is with the O rings. I only have 2 and do not want to damage it because There is no selling of these here.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,726
Likes: 77
Hi Reverb, Like the photo I sent you, I always smooth the top corner nice & smooth.

I always lightly grease outside of block, the bore & the ring itself. Don’t fill the oring groove with grease. There needs to be space for the oring to expand into.

When you are driving block it you want to watch ring. It tends to go well into the bore. If ring gets stuck & starts bulging out, stop. Drive block out & go again.

I have never used sealant on tappet blocks. I’ve not had any leak yet, even after 7 years & 20k miles.

Dry press fits are risky for galling, scoring in surfaces. That’s a good reason to lube as well. Motor oil would be fine too.

You know how the oring on rocker shaft fits you & wants to tear it peel off rubber? I haven’t found tappet block rings want to do that.


I tried putting blocks in freezer. Taking them, condensation covered them with water. Would they rust in? I also found when driving block in it warmed so quickly it didn’t matter.

You could always trial fit block without ring & see how hard it goes in.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
R
reverb Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,467
Likes: 26
Hi TR7RVMan; good points. Thanks.


Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5