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#834658 12/27/20 11:29 pm
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splash Offline OP
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Can anyone tell what wires go where or if any are wrong here in picture? I tried to read the schematic in the manual without luck I see 8 numbers manual and only 5 terminals in practice with no idea what is up or down. I also have many combinations of brown it is ridiculous to even color code so many different browns together.

https://ibb.co/qYSjYvW

Only with the double brown and white hooked up to the near open terminal I am able to get the headlamp to work. I don’t know if high or low beam but only one works. Brake light is either stuck on or running light is stuck on all time. I been having to take out fuse because I have a choice to have the headlight stuck on or tail light stuck on.

Any laymen simple diagram out there with focus on this one lighting switch? I’m just looking for something that shows what color wire goes on which terminal. I’m thinking the switch is faulty and needs to be replaced 🤷🏻‍♂️

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splash #834664 12/28/20 12:04 am
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The wires appear to be connected to the correct terminals although the red/black pilot light wire is missing from terminal 6. Edit: According to the diagram the terminal 4 wire should be brown/white, not white/brown although I'm not sure a white/brown is wrong but there is a loose brown/white in the photo?

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The latest replacement switch is 31788
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/lucas-type-headlight-toggle-switch-3-position-31788t

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splash Offline OP
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Yeah, in the photo there is a white ON brown doubled on one clip connector (bottom right corner). Connected is a brown ON white. Kinda confusing then there is a green ON brown...

Last edited by splash; 12/28/20 2:22 am.
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Hi splash, I don't know the answer.

I recall someone, I think it was Stuart that knows about this quite well. There are different versions of these switches. I did a search on RAT group & didn't find the info. Actually I'm in same position you are with bike I'm working on a '73 Bonnie, looks like repro switch, built different from original but very similar. . I compared the switch on the bike I'm working on to my '73 Tiger. The internal switching is not the same. The terminals are numbered the same, but the other switch has more terminals.

I'm currently very slowly working on building wire harness. I couldn't get valid readings with ohm meter so I'll sit on switch until I'm ready to wire it, then I'll figure out what wire goes where, because factory diagram certainly doesn't work for the repro switch. Could be bad switch too??

Here's what I want. Key off parking lights off even with headlight switch on. Headlights go on/off with key if HL switch is on. Parking bulb can be off or on with HL on when key is on, either way I don't care.

Kicker is with electronic ignition, low or dead battery no start. If you have to turn off headlight every time you turn off bike & forget. Come back, battery is dead. My '73 Tiger did that. I changed wiring such I have no parking lights anymore. Key must be on for any lights to work. I know that is not legal. But I left lights on too many times. Light switch full on, key off & removed parking lights would stay on. That was the problem.
Don


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Maybe get an Ohmmeter to check which terminals connect in each position?

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Originally Posted by splash
Yeah, in the photo there is a white ON brown doubled on one clip connector (bottom right corner). Connected is a brown ON white. Kinda confusing then there is a green ON brown...

"White ON brown" = brown/white (main/tracer), "brown ON white" = white/brown and "green ON brown" = brown/green.
It's likely your '70 model has brown/white (NW) and white/brown (WN) similar to the diagram below, that isn't shown in the first diagram I posted.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Edit: White/brown (WN) was used for the oil pressure switch from around '71, red/green prior to that.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 12/28/20 7:54 am.
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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
There are different versions of these switches. I did a search on RAT group & didn't find the info. Actually I'm in same position you are with bike I'm working on a '73 Bonnie, looks like repro switch, built different from original but very similar. . I compared the switch on the bike I'm working on to my '73 Tiger. The internal switching is not the same. The terminals are numbered the same, but the other switch has more terminals.

The '73 switch should be 34419.

If so, then there's no exact modern equivalent to that switch available, (only old stock if you can find one) although other switches (31788 etc.) are offered as a replacement they are not the same internally as you have found, so what are the two switch numbers?

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[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
image above shows switch wired and in off position ( pin 1,6 7 continuity )
any key switched power to T4 makes no contact to any other terminal

( there are no external terminals 2, 3 or 5 because they are redundant to connects made internally )
image below has the pins contacted for each of the 3 toggles ( for continuity testing )
and terminal numbers that are matchable to the wiring diagram shown

( T1 ) not used

( T4 )... power in

[Linked Image from bits4landys.co.uk]
[Linked Image from oldtimerbedarf.de]

( T6 ) ...power out to pilot ... your pic shows no wiring to a pilot light , or pilotlight in the reflector .

( T7 ) ... instrument and taillight feed ... any/all these bulbs are lit in position 2 and 3 ,

( T8 ) power out to headlight dimmer

postion 1. side toggle ... T4 open/off ... no lights ( pins 1,6,7 )

..............2 . middle toggle is power to pilot , tailight and any instrument bulbs ( pins 1,4,6,7 )

.............3. the other side/toggle is power to the headlight dimmer switch ... ( pilot goes off ... instrument bulbs still on ) ( pins 1,4,7,8 )
............
edit ....
those links of the pin layout , copied nicely into preview , but wouldnt stay linked when posted .?
heres another one , not quite as clearly labeled .

[Linked Image from autoelectricsupplies.co.uk]

Last edited by quinten; 12/28/20 5:45 pm.
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splash Offline OP
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by quinten
( T6 ) ...power out to pilot ... your pic shows no wiring to a pilot light, or pilotlight in the reflector.

The taped-up item on the right-hand side in the photo looks like the pilot bulb holder.

The solid red (may have some black smudge) wire should be hooked up to the lighting switch somewhere? Both bulb holders are in the light housing. At the end of this is an eye connector, I have no idea so I taped it off 🤷🏻‍♂️ It was just hanging in there even when everything was working correctly.

Last edited by splash; 12/28/20 10:03 am.
splash #834689 12/28/20 10:09 am
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Originally Posted by splash
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by quinten
( T6 ) ...power out to pilot ... your pic shows no wiring to a pilot light, or pilotlight in the reflector.

The taped-up item on the right-hand side in the photo looks like the pilot bulb holder.

The solid red wire should be hooked up to the lighting switch somewhere?

Reply to your edit:

Originally Posted by splash
The solid red (may have some black smudge) wire should be hooked up to the lighting switch somewhere? Both bulb holders are in the light housing.

Plain red is earth/ground, so does not connect to the lighting switch, only the pilot light feed which is normally red/black (terminal 6) that has been disconnected.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 12/28/20 10:36 am.
splash #834691 12/28/20 10:26 am
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Originally Posted by splash
Both bulb holders are in the light housing. At the end of this is an eye connector, I have no idea so I taped it off 🤷🏻‍♂️ It was just hanging in there even when everything was working correctly.

Ah, in that case, the (double?) red with the ring terminal and double brown/white should be the Zener diode wires.

The Zener diode (voltage regulator) would normally be attached to a finned heatsink below the headlamp so it looks as if the wires have been disconnected and put inside the headlamp shell?

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/lucas-zener-diode-test-tech-tips
[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com]

Last edited by L.A.B.; 12/28/20 10:41 am.
splash #834694 12/28/20 11:01 am
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The white body / brown stripe is the "hot " feed from the ignition s/w to the light switch, if this is on the wrong terminal , ie one of the two sticking out the black cube , then the switch is on all the time. if you swap it to the other terminal sticking out of the black cube , the switch should be able to go "off".

if it doesnt , the switch may be goosed. Look really hard at the back of the switch , there are small numbers cast beside the terminals which should correspond to the diagram.

Does your bike have an ammeter, if so, the double brown white would connect to one side of the ammeter.


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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by splash
Both bulb holders are in the light housing. At the end of this is an eye connector, I have no idea so I taped it off 🤷🏻‍♂️ It was just hanging in there even when everything was working correctly.

Ah, in that case, the (double?) red with the ring terminal and double brown/white should be the Zener diode wires.

The Zener diode (voltage regulator) would normally be attached to a finned heatsink below the headlamp so it looks as if the wires have been disconnected and put inside the headlamp shell?

https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/lucas-zener-diode-test-tech-tips
[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com]


YES!!!! That's it! The z.diode was removed many years ago. Thanks LAB. I guess I can cut them out the way and terminate them for less confusion and more room in the headlight.

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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The white body / brown stripe is the "hot " feed from the ignition s/w to the light switch, if this is on the wrong terminal , ie one of the two sticking out the black cube , then the switch is on all the time. if you swap it to the other terminal sticking out of the black cube , the switch should be able to go "off".

if it doesnt , the switch may be goosed. Look really hard at the back of the switch , there are small numbers cast beside the terminals which should correspond to the diagram.

Does your bike have an ammeter, if so, the double brown white would connect to one side of the ammeter.


OK will experiment with that idea.

Thanks, I'll look for those numbers.

It had an ammeter. I just disconnected it because the needle broke off years ago. I pulled all the wires which were only connected to one terminal and tied them all together for now. Thanks, I know where that one goes now. I will try connecting to the switch now that the ammeter is gone for now.

Darn it Edit: I got confused again with the brown/white white/brown. I'll figure it out smile

Last edited by splash; 12/28/20 11:21 am.
splash #834700 12/28/20 11:40 am
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Hi,

Couple of things not mentioned so far that might help:-

35710 on the switch in your image is absolutely correct for your bike ("43 69" - Week 43,1969 manufacturing date - suggests it's original?); 35710 works exactly the same as 31788 and they were fitted interchangeably '68-'70 (to '74 on the T100).

Originally Posted by splash
tried to read the schematic in the manual without luck I see 8 numbers manual and only 5 terminals
Look more closely at the switch, "1" to "8" are moulded on the casing by each terminal or rivet hole ...

Originally Posted by splash
no idea what is up or down.
The switch should only fit in the headlamp shell one way - the shell hole should be D-shaped, the switch thread has a flat on one side. Mounted in the shell, wire colours connected to the correct switch terminals: switch lever to the left is all lamps "Off"; lever to the right is tail-lamp, clocks lamps and headlamp on (centre position is tail, clocks and pilot lamps on). Pilot lamp connected to terminal #6, headlamp (handlebar hi-lo switch) connected to terminal #8, both 35710 and 31788 turn the pilot off when the headlamp's on and vice versa.

Testing the switch out of the headlamp shell, amplifying post 834679, use either an Ohm-meter or a multi-meter set to Ohms, one meter lead end connected to terminal #4 (input from ignition switch), the other meter lead end connected to terminal #6 (pilot lamp), #7 (tail and clocks lamps) or #8 (headlamp) as required for testing; meter displaying very high Ohms is switch 'off', zero Ohms (on an analogue meter, near-zero on a digital) is 'working'.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Does your bike have an ammeter, if so, the double brown white would connect to one side of the ammeter.
Uh-uh, Ammeters have two studs with nuts, corresponding wiring terminals are rings.

Tape up the Zener spade terminal, don't cut it off the two Brown/White wires, that'll disconnect 'em and you'll lose the connection between battery -ve and the ignition switch.

Hth.

Regards,

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The switch shown in Quinten's drawing is a "flick switch," standard on 1968-74 500 Triumphs and some 650 Triumphs and BSAs.

When you get it wired up, all you will have to be concerned with is water getting into it, because it was a damned poor choice for a switch that has to be exposed to the weather and to washing the bike. It would have been more suitable if used on the dashboard of a car.

I had one on my '72 T100R fail because rain water got into it.

The old "turn the knob" switches that were used 1967 and earlier were more weather-proof, because the knob acted as a shield against water getting into the switch.

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Ah !, Stuart is correct , the double brown white with female lucar probably connected to the zener originally.


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Originally Posted by Irish Swede
The switch shown in Quinten's drawing is a "flick switch," standard on 1968-74 500 Triumphs and some 650 Triumphs and BSAs.

When you get it wired up, all you will have to be concerned with is water getting into it.<snip>
I would just add that I found out the hard way you have to be very careful about keeping the spade terminals at their original angle, otherwise they can short against the housing. First good bump = blown fuse.


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Hi Stuart, Thanks for jumping in & the info!

How does the above switches relate to the 34419 that's installed in '73 Bonnie/Tiger?

I was attempting to figure it out with ohm meter, but was getting inconsistent readings, like 17 ohm to some terminals when I'd expect open/infinity. The good readings were 2 ohms not corrected for lead resistance.

I'll have to verify #s & go over the ohm meter tests again later. Bike is bista of sorts, so no telling what it will be.
Don


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Hi Don,

34419 is unusual in that it's effectively two separate switches; regrettably, Triumph didn't see fit to print the switch's internal connections with the wiring diagrams:-

. Lever fully to the left, terminals #1 and #2 are connected, as are #5 and #6; because Triumph didn't connect wires to these terminals, the lever position is 'Off'.

. Lever in the centre disconnects only #1 from #2 and connects #3 to #4; the latter two connect a Brown/Blue or a Brown/White wire from the ignition switch to the Brown/Green wires to the tail-lamp, pilot lamp, speedo. 'n' tacho. bulbs.

. Lever fully to the right, terminals #3 and #4 remain connected but #5-#6 are disconnected, #7 and #8 are connected; the latter two connect White wire(s) to a Blue or Blue/Yellow wire to the headlamp dipswitch.

Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
My '73 Tiger
Light switch full on, key off & removed parking lights would stay on. That was the problem.
with electronic ignition, low or dead battery no start. If you have to turn off headlight every time you turn off bike & forget. Come back, battery is dead.
I left lights on too many times.
Educated guess says your bike's wiring originally followed the diagram on page H21 of the Triumph 750 twins' workshop manual, with the Brown/Blue (NU) wire from the ignition switch connected to one of lighting switch terminals #3 or #4?

And, in practice, at the ignition switch, the Brown/Blue wire to the lighting switch was crimped into the same spade terminal as the Brown/Blue wire from battery -ve?

If so, "Light switch full on", turning off the ignition switch cut power in the White wires, which turned off the headlamp, but the tail and pilot bulbs ("parking lights") were still being supplied by the Brown/Blue effectively straight from the battery ... facepalm

Fwiw, as the wiring diagram on workshop manual page H22 shows, Lucas and Triumph 'fixed' that, by using a separate Brown/White wire between the ignition switch and lighting switch terminal #3 or #4; the connection of that wire to the ignition switch could then be changed depending whether "parking lights" were or weren't required in a given market.

Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
working on a '73 Bonnie, looks like repro switch, built different from original but very similar. . I compared the switch on the bike I'm working on to my '73 Tiger. The internal switching is not the same. The terminals are numbered the same, but the other switch has more terminals.
There are different versions of these switches.
Lucas supplied "57SA" switches widely. However, the key at least to a Lucas switch is its 5-figure number; with that you can find what Lucas made it for, then owners' club and it's probably easy to find the internal switch connections.

Triumph and BSA only ever used four different numbers - 35710 as on @splash's bike, interchangeable with 31788; 34419 on '73/'74 T150's and '73-'78 twins except specifically the '78 T140E; 34660 just on the T160. Mind, iirc the Lucas listing for the 34419 was switching fuel tanks on a Land Rover ... smile

Absent a 5-figure number on the switch that's troubling you, possibly a non-Wassell knock-off?

Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
working on a '73 Bonnie,
Here's what I want. Key off parking lights off even with headlight switch on. Headlights go on/off with key if HL switch is on. Parking bulb can be off or on with HL on when key is on,
Initially, depends on the 'look' you're after - the '73 arrangement of handlebar switches integrated with front master cylinder mounting, lever pivots, etc. thumbsdown on so many levels ...

Otoh, if you must keep the '73 handlebar switch clusters and lever lighting switch on the headlamp shell, ime use either easily-available-new 35710 or 31788, or the bike's existing repro lighting switch if testing with your meter shows it has the same internal connections:-

. still connect headlamp high/low switch (Blue or Blue/Yellow wire) to terminal #8;

. connect only the tail-lamp (Brown/Green wire) to terminal #7;

. unlike standard '73 Bonnie, connect the pilot lamp separately to terminal #6.

Then reasons for using 35710/31788/repro:-

. With standard dismal-output alternators, useful pilot-on/headlamp-off or vice versa.

. Single input - terminal #4 or terminal #1 - connected to the 'switched side' of the ignition switch fulfils your "Key off parking lights off even with headlight switch on" and "Headlights go on/off with key if HL switch is on" criteria:-

.. terminal #4 connected to the 'switched side' of the ignition switch, because all lights can be turned off by the lighting switch even if the ignition switch is on, possibility of inadvertently breaking a local 'lights on when moving' law?

.. terminal #1 connected to the 'switched side' of the ignition switch (standard on '78 T140E), turning off the ignition switch still fulfils your criteria but turning on ignition switch turns on tail-lamp and either pilot or headlamp - so no chance of inadvertently breaking the aforementioned law - but pilot-or-headlamp can still be selected by the lighting switch.

I deliberately haven't mentioned the speedo. and tacho. bulbs connections. When 35710/31788 were fitted as standard, those bulbs were connected to terminal #7, with just the tail-lamp. Otoh, I prefer to connect 'em to White wires, they're always on with the ignition so I don't suddenly lose sight of speedo. or tacho. (or oil pressure gauge on my Triumphs) riding from daylight into shadow, tunnel, etc.

Hth.

Regards,

Last edited by Stuart; 12/29/20 1:52 pm.
L.A.B. #834788 12/29/20 10:37 am
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Hi,
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
The '73 switch should be 34419.

If so, then there's no exact modern equivalent to that switch available, (only old stock if you can find one)
Fwiw, Tri-Supply in GB claims to be selling them - https://www.trisupply.co.uk/product...nting-on-late-unit-machines-lucas-34419/ - unfortunately, the one posted image is too blurred for any potential confirmation; frown however, Tri-Supply has been recommended by several TriumphRat contributors.

Hth.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi,
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
The '73 switch should be 34419.

If so, then there's no exact modern equivalent to that switch available, (only old stock if you can find one)
Fwiw, Tri-Supply in GB claims to be selling them - https://www.trisupply.co.uk/product...nting-on-late-unit-machines-lucas-34419/ - unfortunately, the one posted image is too blurred for any potential confirmation; frown however, Tri-Supply has been recommended by several TriumphRat contributors.

Hth.

Regards,

The No.2 spade seems to be missing from the switch in that photo so I'm not entirely convinced it is 34419.

Any 34419 I think is going to be old stock as I said, because 34419 hasn't been made for several years (latest I've seen are '01) and why 31788 is generally sold as a replacement even with instructions on how to connect.

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/light-switch-3-position-5-pole-lu31788-99-0563


The switch can be pulled apart and cleaned/repaired if necessary but it isn't advisable to operate the toggle when removed from the body (unless inside a clear plastic bag) as the four tiny springs can fly in all directions.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


http://www.klempfsbritishparts.com/SWITCH--TOGGLE--HLAMP-2
$150.00 crazy




.

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A couple more things about the 34419 switch
its a double-pole , triple-throw switch .
2 seperate pairs are connected for each toggle postion . ( many of them unused in this harness )

if you need them
page H21 has the pin read-outs for the 3 seperate toggle positions ... on my copy anyway
(snuck in there next to the wire color-code box )

also per page H21 (in agreement )
the parking and instrument lights , are all effectively" hot wired" from the battery to ( T4 )

the parking lights are supposed to work independently of the key switch ...
its one of those safety features designed to drain a battery , which in your case seems to have
done the job . ( hazard blinkers work without a key , this is a 70's version that does not blink )
... or ... this safety feature is its own hazard .


switching the key on
... adds power At T7
... and contacts only T8 ... when the headlight postion is toggled .
T4 to T3 ... remain active in the headlight postion ... from their separate direct battery connection
... so a pilot light , if fitted , will remain on ... with the headlight .
if youre running a larger wattage pilot this is not the best switcb to run .

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S
Joined: Jun 2002
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Hi,
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
"flick switch,"
When you get it wired up, all you will have to be concerned with is water getting into it, because it was a damned poor choice for a switch that has to be exposed to the weather and to washing the bike. It would have been more suitable if used on the dashboard of a car.

I had one on my '72 T100R fail because rain water got into it.

The old "turn the knob" switches that were used 1967 and earlier were more weather-proof, because the knob acted as a shield against water getting into the switch.
Afaict, BSA (as in Triumph's parent) swapped to 57SA lever switches because they'd have been cheaper than "turn the knob" rotary switches, because Lucas made so many of 'em for other parts of the British automotive industry.

However, in keeping with "cheaper than", BSA wouldn't pay for the waterproof lever cover; absent the internerd, few ways of them being known outside GB? frown

[Linked Image from sinolec.co.uk]

... isn't the Lucas one (if they're still available ...) but you get the idea?

Hth.

Regards,

Joined: Oct 2006
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I
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I
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That certainly would have solved that problem.

Anyone have a part number for this?

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