Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
SteveM
SteveM
Austin, KY, USA
Posts: 290
Joined: August 2007
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#824100 09/17/20 7:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
F
friday1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
can anyone id what year this bike is ?
the photo is from 1968
tank looks like sportster or Brit


[img]https://advrider.com/f/attachments/elmo-panther-jpg.2547976/[/img]

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
friday1 #824130 09/18/20 7:38 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,062
Likes: 92
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,062
Likes: 92
Telescopic forks make it 47 onwards, rigid rear end means pre 58.

friday1 #824166 09/18/20 7:05 pm
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
F
friday1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
hey , thanks

friday1 #824171 09/18/20 7:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 58
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 58
Originally Posted by friday1
can anyone id what year this bike is ?
the photo is from 1968
tank looks like sportster or Brit

Are they Panther forks?

Is that a BSA M20 gearbox?

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
friday1 #824190 09/18/20 10:30 pm
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
F
friday1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
this is the owner of that Panther
[Linked Image from 2.bp.blogspot.com]

Last edited by friday1; 09/18/20 10:31 pm.
friday1 #824208 09/19/20 8:30 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 58
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,541
Likes: 58
Originally Posted by friday1
this is the owner of that Panther
[Linked Image from 2.bp.blogspot.com]

“What are you reballing against, Elmo?”


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 635
Likes: 13
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 635
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by friday1
this is the owner of that Panther
[Linked Image from 2.bp.blogspot.com]

“What are you reballing against, Elmo?”

"Society, Man!"

Actually, I see that the 13 Rebels were/are a "family oriented" M/C and AMA sanctioned.

Last edited by Nick H; 09/19/20 12:50 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
friday1 #824224 09/19/20 6:47 pm
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
F
friday1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
F
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 31
this early bike has that box, later seem to have Burman CP

[img]http://https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.x_RrKhZGSzWZPhIQbfn_EwHaEg?pid=Api&rs=1[/img]

friday1 #825455 10/02/20 8:12 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
The later Panther heavyweights have Burman BAP boxes
This is my M120 box:
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/2hWGYuSHs9fGeJUn7[/img]z

BevanC #830278 11/19/20 1:24 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Originally Posted by ]
This is my M120 box:
[img

Thats a CP gearbox !
Identical to whats in my 49 Ajay.

A BAP gearbox is like this
[Linked Image from 2040-motos.com]
The top picture with blue tank also looks to have a BAP box.

friday1 #830567 11/22/20 12:00 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
Sorry mate, my Panther's box is a BAP - I know this because I rebuilt it and it is the correct box for a Heavyweight Panther.
Cheers, Bevan.

BevanC #830578 11/22/20 1:46 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Originally Posted by BevanC
This is my M120 box:
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/2hWGYuSHs9fGeJUn7[/img]z


Are you saying this box (clicked link) is a BAP ?
I think a lot of folks are going to disagree with you.

That is identical to the Burman CP in my Ajay.
(And Ajays never used the BAP box.)
Here is a pic of another CP one, at home in a Matchy
https://matchlessclueless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/R0032315-small.jpg

Here is a CP gearbox housing on fleabay - upside down.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kGMAAOSwIAxffkpA/s-l1600.jpg
And the shell - you can see the CP casting number ...(1CP)
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zaMAAOSwVH1ffko-/s-l1600.jpg

If you get a BAP box, you can see the BAP in the casting number details
http://www.2040-motos.com/_content/cars/images/64/395364/003.jpg
You can also see the BAP number in the stamped number/details
http://www.2040-motos.com/_content/cars/images/64/395364/008.jpg

Last edited by Rohan; 11/22/20 2:01 am.
friday1 #830579 11/22/20 2:17 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Here is a BAP box on UK fleabay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-...-MATCHLESS-PANTHER-VINCENT-/283983397129
(Doesn't help he doesn't know what it fits !)
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mTAAAOSw22ZfO-xW/s-l1600.jpg

Internals are very similar (same ?) as the CP, but in a different housing - BAP housing ...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/--0AAOSwLT5fO-yc/s-l1600.jpg

friday1 #830581 11/22/20 2:40 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3

friday1 #830584 11/22/20 3:10 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Do you a photo of the rest of your BAP shell. ?

OK, I just found this. On a Vincent forum !

"Early post-war AJS's were fitted with a Burman box, and I believe that the kick-start cover is visually the same.
If my memory serves me correctly, it is the main bearing at the sprocket end that is larger on the BAP box."
(So the CP and now the BAP box have the same end covers ?)

That means there are different varieties of BAP boxes then, if you compare with the Ariel type ?
Wonder if the shaft and gears are the same, or stronger ?

Also, Burman ceased production of Burman boxes in 1955/56, what did Panther do after that. ??
It mentions that the AMC box was going to be 4 x more expensive than what Burmans supplied.

friday1 #830593 11/22/20 4:24 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Prewar Panthers had yer more usual looking type of BAP box.
So when did the externals change ..

https://images.prewarcar.com/pics/r2w-1200x800-caradverts/227559/3332_1507026974_resized_panther.jpg

friday1 #830596 11/22/20 4:33 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
According to my Panther reference material:

P & M was Burmans last gearbox customer. Even though they were long declared obsolete, and no longer used by other marques, Burman continued to supply BAP boxes to P & M through to approximately 1962 (possibly from running down their remaining stock towards the end). Burman finally scrapped their gearbox making facilities around 1962-3 I think.

Between 1963 - 5, while under receivership, P & M continued to assemble M120s, but with AMC boxes (there is some suggestion that they may have also fitted reconditioned BAPs). The AMC boxes ultimately proved too expensive - 4 times more than the old Burman box as you say. P & M motorcycle production officially ended in 1966, although a few further bikes were assembled from spares.

Regarding my 1960 M120 - the POC machine dating registrar has confirmed that it is highly likely the frame and engine left the factory together (numbers never matched, but mine are very close, thus likely to be "original", not that I care). My magdyno is the correct model but from 1954. Similarly, my gearbox is the correct model, but is from 1956. If I recall correctly from 1958 or 9 onwards, the BAPs were oil filled, thus had an oil seal and drain plug. My BAP is the earlier box filled with semi-fluid grease.

The BA box on my 1950 Ariel is internally very similar to the BAP I think, but has the external clutch lifter arm. I think the mainshaft is a different length also.

Cheers, Bevan

friday1 #830598 11/22/20 5:23 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
Thanks.
History is a convoluted thing !

Burmans actually sold out in 1955, and then announced they were going to concentrate on making steering racks.
So Panther must have called in a few favours or something.
AMC meanwhile spent a million quid or more for the machinery to make their AMC boxes themselves.
Cheers.

friday1 #830599 11/22/20 6:42 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
You have to love British engineering design. I was unimpressed to find that the Ariels BA box has a shoulder on the mainshaft drive side that retains the gearbox sprocket - meaning that you have to withdraw the mainshaft to replace the sprocket. At least with the BAP, you can remove the sprocket in the usual manner.

friday1 #830604 11/22/20 8:30 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
CP boxes also have that block of metal on the end of the mainshaft, so likewise to the BA box the sprocket can only be changed by withdrawing the mainshaft. I was rather amused at that foible - but my sprocket was in good condition.!,

I must get a good look at one of these thar BAP boxes, details are tough to come by...

friday1 #830605 11/22/20 9:30 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,647
Likes: 24
And with a bit of poking around, the internals of a BAP box (plus a few spare !)
The change in the mainshaft to make the sprocket changing more sensible is immediately obvious.
The larger bearing for the BAP is in the specs.

https://www.marston-sunbeam.org/sun...on=dlattach;topic=312.0;attach=301;image

friday1 #830646 11/22/20 7:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 86
Likes: 3
I don't think the BAP main bearing has standard id, if I recall correctly, the POC supply one with a ground out centre.

BevanC #832710 12/09/20 11:05 am
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 16
I remember this BAP main bearing issue,I was rebuilding a 1955 M100 at the time around 1990 and found an old bearing shop not far out of the CBD
close to the North Perth football ground.The owner was very familiar with the bearing and told me the outer surface on them are ground to suit a BAP
gearbox.Strange and a mystery.


Moderated by  kommando 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5