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The six hole were found on mostly pre unit wheels. I think the four hole were used on A65's. Most of the six hole supply has dried up in the last few years. Most suppliers are now supplying four hole. The last stock I ordered were aluminum and not cad plated brass but work OK. These are not original, but if the wheel is turning, no one will notice.


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Originally Posted by BritTwit
The six hole were found on mostly pre unit wheels.
My hesitation in attaching more than two projections to that socket yesterday was that it's the last of my large diameter sacrificial sockets, and making it compatible with 6 holes makes it incompatible with 4. I'm not going to have time to work on the bike today, but your post prompted me to buy two lots of random-size large sockets on ebay.

Sockets are very useful for modifying into special tools (e.g. crankshaft and gearbox nuts, steering stem sleeve, etc.) and over the years I've slowly gone through my supply of orphan sockets. The one I modified yesterday was waiting for me to modify for tightening the sleeve gear on my gearbox and it was the last large ones suitable for that purpose, or for making a 4-hole locking ring remover if/when I need it. Anyway, when I'm back in the garage again I'll add a few more projections to the 6-hole locking ring remover since the sockets now on their way from ebay should keep me supplied in new special tools for at least a few years.

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I'm still tied up with writing and providing IT support for my granddaughters' on-line learning nightmare, but there were a couple of developments on the Clipper front today. The M20 gearbox internals from eBay arrived, providing me with the needed sprocket and locking nut for it. Plus a lot of other parts, including a sleeve gear. So, I didn't need the NOS one from Australia after all. Oh well.

Also, Baxter Cycle responded, allowing me to return at my expense the incorrect sprocket and locking nut they sent to me. I love having to pay for other people's mistakes. And it is their mistake. Both parts came marked with the part numbers I ordered for the M-type gearbox, but they actually are for the later type of gearbox which differs by 1/16". Even then, the sprocket would have to be pounded onto the later sleeve gear I tried it on so I won't vouch that it is correctly manufactured for the later gearbox.

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I stumbled across this a few minuets ago. A good discussion of restoration and preservation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUddl_mxbuQ&list=PLkhaA2iJQAQoa_2JDj1ag9eIAJUmkhsHm&index=2

From the Historic Vehicle Association:
In our newest series "The Conservator's Mindset", we speak with the team at B.R. Howard & Associates to discuss different methods of conservation, preservation, and restoration that they use every day and how they apply towards working with historic vehicles!

It's given me pause as I reached for that can of Krylon


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Originally Posted by BritTwit
I stumbled across this a few minuets ago. A good discussion of restoration and preservation.
Thanks for posting that. It's an excellent discussion of the implications of the choices we make whenever we do anything to our motorcycles. Luckily, though, essentially everything[*] posted on Britbike involves mass produced machines so it isn't often that truly difficult choices between repair, preserve, conserve or restore have to be made.

[*]It gives me pause to think I wrote it seven years ago, early in the, ahem, ongoing restoration of my Spitfire Scrambler, but I discussed the same points at that time as in the video.

The present Clipper is pretty far toward the opposite end of the spectrum from the Spitfire as far as decisions about whether or not to use Krylon. However, even further from the Spitfire is the following image I sent to my younger daughter a few days ago.

[Linked Image]

This is the same image as the first one in this thread, minus "extraneous" parts. My daughter is an architect/designer and a motorcyclist, and along with that image I sent links to five people who I think are producing some of the most interesting custom motorcycles these days. I asked her to, in her spare time (of which there is very little), think about designing a custom motorcycle for me to build based on the above image as the basic building block.

It remains to be seen if she takes the bait and does this, but it would be a great father-daughter project. If she does, on the shelf are the parts shown in that image.

To bring this post full circle, if she designed something interesting, and if I succeeded in building it, and if the result turned out to be interesting enough for a collector to want it, fifty years from now a firm like the one in the video would have to solve conservation and preservation issues involving materials like Krylon on engine mounts and Hardman epoxy in pits on fork tubes.

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Luckily for them the detailed provenance and decision tree that resulted in it's current state will be available to them, perhaps illuminated in gold on vellum for effect.


1970 T120R - 'Anton'
1970 Commando - 'Bruno'
1967 T120R - 'Caesar'
1968 Lightning - 'Dora'
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The only work I managed on the Clipper the past few days involved the computer. Remotely related to the Clipper is that a tool sale caught my eye so a few new "essential" items are on their way, to be on standby for possible future motorcycle work, and to vex Cyborg in the meantime in the Tooling Wars™. Also, before I found a supplier for the two springs in the shifter mechanism of the gearbox I thought I would have to make my own. Although there won't be a next time, in order to be ready for next time, I ordered spring wire in diameters of those springs.

As a relevant aside for anyone unsure of the reliability of springs they might make themselves, I had to make a new spring for my Ariel's oil pump. As an estimate, since I geared the bike for 52.4 mph @3000 rpm, and assuming the bike ran at an average speed of 50 mph when crossing the country, that oil pump spring (which operates from the cam, so 1430 rpm) survived 5.2 million cycles.

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I missed that post yesterday.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]2CEE2D8E-8462-4804-A6E8-7AAF0C4A8425 by First Last, on Flickr

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Curse you, Cyborg.

I've had for some time the 90-deg. head and overarm support for my mill, and one of my purchases this week was the arbor that's needed to complete the conversion of my vertical mill into a horizontal one like yours (although I'll first have to have to machine the arbor to make it fit). Unfortunately, that still won't give me the equivalent capability until I modify the mill's drive mechanism to drop the lowest speed to something suitable for turning the involute cutters that you have, but that I don't (yet). So, you'll remain ahead in this battle of the Tooling Wars™ for some time yet.

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Originally Posted by Cyborg

I have seen those dual gauges for tramming mills but never felt the need for one. To me it seems to add an extra level of potential error to tramming a mil.

Why not just stick to a single clock mounted on the spindle quill and then take comparative readings 180 degrees apart instead? Or am I missing something?

John

Last edited by George Kaplan; 09/08/20 3:43 pm. Reason: I meant quill as per MM's reply.
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You're ahead of me on the horizontal mill, but no points for tramming. I prefer my flat 10" plate with 0.0001" indicator in the quill, which gives much greater precision than the shorter (6"?) spacing between your 0.001" indicators, Plus, the way I do it the indicator is basically self calibrated to 0.0001" whereas the calibration procedure needed for yours results in an uncertainty of at least several times that much.

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Originally Posted by George Kaplan
Originally Posted by Cyborg

I have seen those dual gauges for tramming mills but never felt the need for one. To me it seems to add an extra level of potential error to tramming a mil.

Why not just stick to a single clock mounted on the spindle quill and then take comparative readings 180 degrees apart instead? Or am I missing something?

John

You aren’t missing anything. You zero them in the same spot on top of the little magnet. Then just compare clocks. It does save time, but have to confess that MM’s procedure “may” be more accurate. He probably has one and just doesn’t want to admit it.
I also have to confess that I wasn’t actually advocating the use of this particular tool. The photo was actually a cryptic (and somewhat childish) message meant to get into MM’s kitchen.

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Originally Posted by Cyborg
The photo was actually a cryptic (and somewhat childish) message meant to get into MM’s kitchen.
For those interested (and who wouldn't be?...), the history behind our Tooling War™ is it started on another board devoted to a lesser marque. Although it was on Cyborg's own thread devoted to his rebuild of one of those lesser machines, Cyborg was cautioned against any further discussion of tooling since the moderator had the bizarre view that tooling was an inappropriate digression from motorcycle rebuilding. Anyway, our Tooling War™ started there and obviously has spilled over to this site as well.

On the subject of tooling, the next photograph shows that I added two more pegs to my tool for BSA hub lock rings, with the load now shared between four pegs.

[Linked Image]

I resisted the temptation to have pegs for all six positions. Of course, I can always give in to that temptation in the future.

The next photograph shows a commercial tool used to install the seal holders on the forks.

[Linked Image]

The tool is hollow so it fits over the stanchions and, as can be seen, has two projections that engage slots inside the seal holder to tighten or loosen it. Closer inspection shows the tool could have been made better than it was. The next photograph is an end-on view of the tool installed in a seal holder (minus the seal).

[Linked Image]

The projections on the tool that carry the full load of removing a stubborn seal holder are only 0.055" thick, whereas it can be seen that they need to be ~2× that thickness for full engagement with the seal holder. Also, 0.055" is barely thicker than shim stock so it's no wonder the leading edge of the projection in the first photograph has been sliced off. Although harder to see from the photograph, the projections are too short as well. Now that I've found the shortcomings of this tool I'll add the metal that should have been there in the first place.

The "quality" of aftermarket tools as well as aftermarket parts is a good reason for Cyborg and I to have supplemental tooling (i.e. lathes, mills, micrometers, etc.) for rebuilding motorcycles. Being able to make our own special tools where none exist is another reason.

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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
The projections on the tool that carry the full load of removing a stubborn seal holder are only 0.055" thick, whereas it can be seen that they need to be ~2× that thickness for full engagement with the seal holder. Also, 0.055" is barely thicker than shim stock so it's no wonder the leading edge of the projection in the first photograph has been sliced off. Although harder to see from the photograph, the projections are too short as well. Now that I've found the shortcomings of this tool I'll add the metal that should have been there in the first place.

The "quality" of aftermarket tools as well as aftermarket parts is a good reason for Cyborg and I to have supplemental tooling (i.e. lathes, mills, micrometers, etc.) for rebuilding motorcycles. Being able to make our own special tools where none exist is another reason.

I was pleased with the seal holder tool I bought for $55 (shipped) from some eBay seller. The lugs are .100" thick and they project .180". It worked great. The handles are threaded into the body to make them removable for storage. Lucky find, I suppose, but no additional welding or messing around was required.

[Linked Image from tr6ray.zenfolio.com]

[Linked Image from tr6ray.zenfolio.com]


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
Going off on even more of a tangent here, has anybody compared the Edge Technologies spindle square shown above with the adjustable equivalent from Boring Research?

I won't even pretend to attempt to compete with Magnetoman's .0001" precision.

Last edited by Shane in Oz; 09/09/20 12:14 am. Reason: fixed dyslexic spelling
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
I like the "Jr Birdman" crazy eyed effect.
Nice mill table BTW.

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Originally Posted by TR6Ray
I was pleased with the seal holder tool I bought for $55 (shipped) from some eBay seller. The lugs are .100" thick and they project .180".
I don't remember where I bought mine, but it looks more cheaply made than yours. However, the 0.180" projection of yours is an issue since the notched ring against which the seal is pressed is only ⅛" thick so yours risks pushing the seal away from where is should be.

[Linked Image]

Thanks to steel and silver solder (and primer), the lugs in mine are now 0.130" wide and make full contact with the seal holder.

[Linked Image]

I used the mill to make both lugs the same width so the relevant ends make full contact with the seal holder for both tightening and loosening, and trimmed the heights to be 0.125". They're not as wide as the slots in the seal holder because I trimmed away the portion of the one lug that had been damaged. All that matters is both lugs are the same width and wide enough to withstand the forces.

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For what its worth, I never had much success with the fork oil seal tool I bought many years ago. I originally purchased the tool to remove the oil seal holders on my B44, however it turned out the oil seal holders were far too seized for the tool to be of much use and I ended up rounding the lugs. Eventually I resorted to mapp gas and a stilson wrench to get the seal holder off, which of course ruined them.

When used in the fitting mode, the oil seal holder tool still didn't work too well and I found that unless the tool was kept perfectly square, the lugs could easily slip off the oil seal holder.

In the end I found it easier to use a rubber strap wrench for fitting the oil seal holders. This type of device wraps around the outside of the oil seal holder, grips it uniformly and being rubber ensures a fair amount of torque can be applied.

It may be that the lugs on the tool I tried were too short and/or made from soft metal which made it hard to use. If I had the tooling maybe I could have tried building up the lugs with weld and perhaps undercutting them so they grip the seal holders better.
It's also worthwhile ensuring the threads are perfectly clean and lubricated so that when assembling the tool is only needed for the last couple of threads to seal against the string or whatever else is used to stop leaks.
Just my tuppence worth smile

Last edited by gunner; 09/10/20 3:50 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Originally Posted by gunner
In the end I found it easier to use a rubber strap wrench for fitting the oil seal holders. This type of device wraps around the outside of the oil seal holder, grips it uniformly and being rubber ensures a fair amount of torque can be applied.
BINGO! I have strap wrenches in 3 sizes, EXCELLENT tools.

Too many dust cups have been ruined by the pin-type tools, and of course, ham-fisted chisels, etc...


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I've had good luck with the pin tool. Over the years I've rebuilt many front forks, many bugger by the previous owner. I secure them vertically by the mud guard tabs in a vise. I slip a 12" piece of pipe over the handles for extra leverage. With two people manning the handles, apply full downward weight and gently unscrew. Even with rounded notches the extra downward force does the trick.


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Originally Posted by gunner
rse ruined them.

When used in the fitting mode, the oil seal holder tool still didn't work too well and I found that unless the tool was kept perfectly square, the lugs could easily slip off the oil seal holder.

Could you temporarily slip the fork tube in there? Then the tube might help keep the tool square..... assuming the tool you have will fit over it.
If the slider has a hole in the bottom, you could run a piece or rod (threaded at the ends) through the slider and the tool. Leave it more or less finger tight and then you can crack the holder lose and the tool won’t cam out.

I have a similar tool for removing valve guide (threaded) lock rings. Bolt goes through the guide and holds the tool against the lock ring. Crack it lose, back off the bolt a bit and repeat until there is no more tendency to cam out.

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Originally Posted by gunner
In the end I found it easier to use a rubber strap wrench for fitting the oil seal holders. ...
It's also worthwhile ensuring the threads are perfectly clean and lubricated
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Could you temporarily slip the fork tube in there?
Originally Posted by GrandPaul
I have strap wrenches in 3 sizes, EXCELLENT tools.
Originally Posted by BritTwit
I've had good luck with the pin tool.
I never have any difficulty removing fork seal holders using this special tool:

[Linked Image]

None of the early fork seal holders (including the ones on my 1963 Gold Star) have holes for a pin tool so I either need to use the tool whose two projections I modified, or the above truly special tool.

Since I was dealing with used parts I made sure both fork seal holders nicely screwed onto the fork legs before I did too much work with any of the parts.

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Jeeze Doc...you should know better than to use the RED special tool. Blue only on seal holders......red’s for axle nuts!

Gordon


Gordon Gray in NC, USA........my son says.... "Everybody is stupid about something"
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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
red’s for axle nuts!
I prefer silver for that purpose. Of course, I also use the time-honored procedure for getting the torque right by feeling for when it starts to get easier, then backing off a quarter turn.

[Linked Image]

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