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BAinLA Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kevin
Originally Posted by BAinLA
For unsticking the clutch I am thinking about push-starting it in 1st gear, getting it up to the RPM where max torque occurs which is North of 5000 I believe, and nailing the throttle with the clutch pulled all the way to the bar. Then on and off the throttle a few times. If that doesn't work, I will have to buy a puller tool and go in there and have a look-see. Still just thinking at this point., -BA

no no no don't do that.

they may well be truly dry and stuck and won't come undone or you might shear the mainshaft key.

you don't need a puller. the basket can stay in place.

take off the pressure plate, winkle the steel and fibre plates out with a bit of bent wire. slather them with white lithium grease very casually wiped off, put em back, install the pressure plate, adjust the springs and pressure plate lift and you're good.

in a stock 1972 you run the risk of grenading the gearbox putting a sudden load on it trying to free up the clutch.

don't do that. it's expensive.

Thanks, I did think better of it and decided to just do what you suggest. I need to slow down and think more. The carb is running way too lean and shouldn't be run in this condition anyway. So I have it back apart but I don't see the problem. I set the float to ~.060" below the surface when gently pressing the tangs down. I saw this on Youtube. But I doubt that a slight float level error would require full choke to idle, so it's back to the drawing room. -BA


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Great. I dismantled the carb again and all the passages are still free. This pilot jet is for air right? I am running very lean (requiring a lot of choke to idle) so this wouldn't be the issue right? Maybe too much play in the slide? It does wobble a little even when closed. -BA


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The floats won’t have much effect with what your doing, you need the pilot circuit and the welch plug and the jets (drilling’s under the slide) clean and gunk free for the idle circuit to transfer fuel properly. Unblocking the pilot jet with the 0.016” guitar string or #78 drill bit is only part of the fix.


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BAinLA Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Allan G
The floats won’t have much effect with what your doing, you need the pilot circuit and the welch plug and the jets (drilling’s under the slide) clean and gunk free for the idle circuit to transfer fuel properly. Unblocking the pilot jet with the 0.016” guitar string or #78 drill bit is only part of the fix.

Thanks Allan G, I'm about to throw in the towel. I took it off AGAIN and ran a wire through the pilot jet, reamed out the the little fuel riser in the float bowl with a drill bit, blew carb cleaner through the pilot circuit quite successfully. reassembled and I can get it to idle with the choke open and the idle air screw at 1/2 turn but when I go to rev the engine it just sputters. So off-idle is non-existent unless I sorta coax it past the dead zone.
$200 for a replacement carb is what I paid for the whole bike. Maybe the play in the slide to housing is causing too big of an air leak for idle circuit to compensate for.It wobbles maybe .010" when closed and has 20,000 miles on it. -BA


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Concetric carbs are a part which wears and often thought of as an item which requires replacement more than the likes of the monoblock or the Conc' Mk2.

The new Premier carbs are really good and address many of the issues associated with the standard version. ie, I no longer have to broddle my idle circuit after a winter lay up, the bike always starts and seems happy.

Sounds like you got a cheap bike, I paid that amount just for a frame and 2 1/2 times that to convert the 10" T140 disc to being a fully floating 12" disc.

Excess play in the slide would stop the carb from drawing fuel correctly, although there needs to be some play, I "think" (I use that term loosly) its around 0.003" - 0.004" The slide and body are most likely worn which won't help matters by just replacing the slide.

.... Or you could have the wrong carb or wrong jetting fitted?


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BAinLA Offline OP
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Thanks Allan G, Looks like the correct 930 carb. Honestly, I could not get the needle jet off of the holder because it was really stuck badly and the wrench was rounding off the corners, so I just cleared it out as best as I could and it does look clean though I'm no expert! I may have to go with the Premier or the JRC which is $118 here. The premiers are $189. I have yet to see any reviews for the cheaper JRC (Keihin) units. I think I will wait to see if the transmission is good before investing heavily in this machine. Thanks again, -BA

https://www.throttleaddiction.com/jrc-30mm-carb-AMAL-replacement/

Last edited by BAinLA; 08/28/20 11:11 pm.

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Congrats on the first start !!

Originally Posted by BAinLA
For unsticking the clutch I am thinking about push-starting it in 1st gear, getting it up to the RPM where max torque occurs which is North of 5000 I believe, and nailing the throttle with the clutch pulled all the way to the bar. Then on and off the throttle a few times. If that doesn't work, I will have to buy a puller tool and go in there and have a look-see. Still just thinking at this point., -BA

That won't work. If you can get to a back road with zero traffic, you can roll it off in 2nd gear and then simply ride around with the clutch lever pulled in. They usually break loose within 3 minutes.

thumbsup


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Originally Posted by BAinLA
Thanks Allan G, Looks like the correct 930 carb. Honestly, I could not get the needle jet off of the holder because it was really stuck badly and the wrench was rounding off the corners, so I just cleared it out as best as I could and it does look clean though I'm no expert! I may have to go with the Premier or the JRC which is $118 here. The premiers are $189. I have yet to see any reviews for the cheaper JRC (Keihin) units. I think I will wait to see if the transmission is good before investing heavily in this machine. Thanks again, -BA

Too early to spend any money. Like I said, you'll need about 250 miles to see if the main bearings are going to make it. You need to know the bottom end is going to hold together before you start spending money on carbs. This bike might still need a infusion of several thousand dollars, so I wouldn't be dropping $100 into a carb just so you can hear the bottom end going bad.

If no one else will help you, then send me the carb and I'll check it out.

All the best. thumbsup


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Originally Posted by BAinLA
Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Slow and steady.

ALWAYS apply some form of lubrication (Never-Sieze, 20W50, chassis grease, what ever!) to spark plug threads before installing a spark plug. Even if you just took that plug out of that hole.

That's good to know, thanks. I've been giving them an occasional shot of WD-40. Now I will always do so.

No, sir ! You need a lubricant that will stay in place while the cylinder head heats up to 300°F. WD-40 is NOT a high temperature lubricant. Your choices again are... Never-Seize, 20W50 motor oil, or chassis grease.


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BAinLA Offline OP
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Ok, then it's anti-seize from now on. I was using WD-40 before it was running and was cold.

I've got the clutch apart and boy was it plastered together! I had to use a bent nail and actually pry the plates apart before I could think about removing each one. Now, clean them up and slap it back together to see if the transmission is toast, or invest in new set of 12.

This bike does not leak one drop of oil and there was no gasket on the primary cover, just a clear silicone-type sealer. Amazing.

Last edited by BAinLA; 08/30/20 10:43 pm.

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Clutch plates were bonded together, had to be forcefully pried apart.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The one on the left is actually a steel with friction material bonded to it which does not come off with solvents or light scrubbing.
The friction plate on right is disintegrating and I will not attempt to reuse any of these. I suppose it is conceivable to somehow clean these up and use what is left of them to test out the transmission but I will just spring for the $99 set from M.A.P. (steels and friction). I don't much fancy the idea of excess friction material migrating to the engine bearings.-BA

Last edited by BAinLA; 08/31/20 9:02 pm.

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Originally Posted by BAinLA
I will just spring for the $99 set from M.A.P. (steels and friction). I don't much fancy the idea of excess friction material migrating to the engine bearings.-BA

BA,

At least if it comes down to needing a full engine/gearbox rebuild, you will already have this base covered and with quality parts to boot ! The tangs on both types look decent, so I imagine none to very minimal wear on the clutch center and drum ?


Jon W.


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If the ears on the plates aren’t worn, you can pick the friction material off and glue cork mat in its place.


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Originally Posted by BAinLA
This bike does not leak one drop of oil and there was no gasket on the primary cover, just a clear silicone-type sealer. Amazing.

Maybe not too amazing ... I don't use a paper gasket on my primary covers; I use LocTite 515 or 518 Anaerobic Sealer instead. It's what very many engine manufacturers use on flanged metal joints like a primary cover.

Lannis


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Originally Posted by Jon W. Whitley
Originally Posted by BAinLA
I will just spring for the $99 set from M.A.P. (steels and friction). I don't much fancy the idea of excess friction material migrating to the engine bearings.-BA

BA,

At least if it comes down to needing a full engine/gearbox rebuild, you will already have this base covered and with quality parts to boot ! The tangs on both types look decent, so I imagine none to very minimal wear on the clutch center and drum ?

No excessive wear. I was wondering what the spec is for drum wobble. I couldn't find it anywhere. -BA


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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
If the ears on the plates aren’t worn, you can pick the friction material off and glue cork mat in its place.

Will "Elmer's" work OK?


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Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by BAinLA
This bike does not leak one drop of oil and there was no gasket on the primary cover, just a clear silicone-type sealer. Amazing.

Maybe not too amazing ... I don't use a paper gasket on my primary covers; I use LocTite 515 or 518 Anaerobic Sealer instead. It's what very many engine manufacturers use on flanged metal joints like a primary cover.

Lannis

Good to know. I ordered a gasket anyway since that's the way I always did it in eons past (actually I made my own).

Last edited by BAinLA; 09/01/20 1:46 am.

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There is always drum wobble, even brand new bits have an unsettling amount, dont worry about it. Clean the steel plates with a dip in dilute Hydro Chloric acid, sold as brick cleaner. Ten minutes should do it, oil afterwards.


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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
There is always drum wobble, even brand new bits have an unsettling amount, dont worry about it. Clean the steel plates with a dip in dilute Hydro Chloric acid, sold as brick cleaner. Ten minutes should do it, oil afterwards.

So good to hear this about the clutch wobble and thanks for the tip about the acid dip! That's the kind of cheap-Charlie trick I need to learn! -BA


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Originally Posted by BAinLA
Clutch plates were bonded together, had to be forcefully pried apart. The one on the left is actually a steel with friction material bonded to it which does not come off with solvents or light scrubbing. The friction plate on right is disintegrating and I will not attempt to reuse any of these.
That is NOT true. After sitting up, they all look very similar to yours. All you had to do was follow my instructions.


Originally Posted by BAinLA
I suppose it is conceivable to somehow clean these up and use what is left of them to test out the transmission but I will just spring for the $99 set from M.A.P. (steels and friction).
That's $99 dollars you'll never see again. New clutch plates were not needed by any stretch of the imagination.


Originally Posted by BAinLA
I don't much fancy the idea of excess friction material migrating to the engine bearings.
Which is exactly why I suggested you fit an oil filter to the return oil line.


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Originally Posted by DavidP
Originally Posted by BAinLA
For sure It will be a lot of work. I will remember that tip about freeing the clutch first. I wasn't aware about the gearbox sprocket. I had already envisioned increasing it a tooth for freeway cruising help. Thanks, -BA
I'm not entirely sure that the sprocket is that much different from the later ones. I couldn't get a definitive answer, so I found the correct part for my Trident. I'm sure that the splines would be the same (though I think DMadigan found slight differences), it would fit on the shaft, but without both sprockets in hand to measure I could not be certain that the thickness is the same. Thus, I could not be sure of proper chain alignment.

FWIW here is a YouTube video of a guy (Lunmad) installing a 20 tooth on a Bonneville 650. It just barely fits through the hole. In fact, to get the old one off (also a 20) he had to file off the oxidation and crud (but no metal he says) from the inner surface of the hole. So with his 4spd it is possible at least. I will ask some suppliers and see what they say about alignment and spine compatibility on a 5 spd. -BA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXKK5xCqr5U ~> go to 22:00 for 20 tooth sprocket fitment.

Last edited by BAinLA; 09/01/20 7:12 pm.

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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
[quote=BAinLA]Clutch plates were bonded together, had to be forcefully pried apart. The one on the left is actually a steel with friction material bonded to it which does not come off with solvents or light scrubbing. The friction plate on right is disintegrating and I will not attempt to reuse any of these.
That is NOT true. After sitting up, they all look very similar to yours. All you had to do was follow my instructions.


Originally Posted by BAinLA
I suppose it is conceivable to somehow clean these up and use what is left of them to test out the transmission but I will just spring for the $99 set from M.A.P. (steels and friction).
That's $99 dollars you'll never see again. New clutch plates were not needed by any stretch of the imagination.


Originally Posted by BAinLA
I don't much fancy the idea of excess friction material migrating to the engine bearings.
Which is exactly why I suggested you fit an oil filter to the return oil line.[/quote

Thank you sir, your advice is held in high regard. Ok, It was a late night blunder ordering the clutches. I just could not see how to get down to the steel surface without compromising the surface finish and I could imagine the assembled clutch creeping and making gear engagement hard on the dog, which I believe has been a weak element of these 5 Spds. So I went ahead and ordered. At least now I will possibly have a serviceable spare set.

I'm currently researching the in-line oil filter options on the return line. I also looked at the "Charlie's filter" but am not in favor of this design. I believe that the return line is the most practical (and safe) location. Now, how to rig a proper return-line filter with a bypass for as little $ as possible.... -BA


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Originally Posted by BAinLA
Thank you sir, your advice is held in high regard. Ok, It was a late night blunder ordering the clutches. I just could not see how to get down to the steel surface without compromising the surface finish and I could imagine the assembled clutch creeping and making gear engagement hard on the dog, which I believe has been a weak element of these 5 Spds. So I went ahead and ordered. At least now I will possibly have a serviceable spare set.
• All that was called for was to put some oil on the plates and re-install them. The rust and other surface irregularities will be gone in the first 10 miles.
• Creeping is an adjustment issue.
• What protects the gearbox dogs is the "cush assembly". The rubbers inside the cush are probably rock hard, and so it's going to be what it is.


Originally Posted by BAinLA
I'm currently researching the in-line oil filter options on the return line. I also looked at the "Charlie's filter" but am not in favor of this design. I believe that the return line is the most practical (and safe) location. Now, how to rig a proper return-line filter with a bypass for as little $ as possible....
• The oil by-pass is built into every commonly used spin-on filter. So that concern is off the table.
• Amazon has some mounts under $30, use a generic $5 Walmart filter.


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Reassembled the clutch and the bike runs great, shifts perfectly through the gears. Probably a keeper but the jury is still out. -BA


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Good job on your 650! Your "stick with it" attitude has prevailed over the elements. Now you can get to know the personality of the machine. I had a 70 TR6r that was " Mr. Smooth". and a 69 Bonne that wanted me to " get it on" .


59 Bonne (in high school!)--67 TR6c (building)--68 Bonne(building)--69 Bonne (sold!)- 70 TR6r (sold!)-79 TR7v custom (building) - CRF 250x & XR 400 dual sport w/ SM wheels (super fun!) & just bought two Honda CT-90 trail bikes in rough shape!
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