Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Triumph bulletin board T120V NJ

This T120V has a disc front end and I make it as a 1973. Would it have been a correct T120V with this from the factory, almost into the Triumph factory lock down? Thanks Leon

'J' is 1974 model year. 'N' is October, therefore, although the date of manufacture was October 1973 it probably didn't leave Meriden until some months later due to the sit-in and would've had a disc front end.

Because of the factory strike, '74 Triumph twins are rather rare.

Did you know some of the '74 ones are 650 as well as 750?

Irish is correct—they made 250-300 of the 1974 650s.
The 1973s had a front disc brake from the factory along with the 4 bolt tappet inspection covers.
The 1974 650s had the front disc brake from the factory with the 6 bolt tappet inspection covers.
The 1974 650s also had the triplex primary chain.
I have two of the 1974 650s and they are a very nice bike.
The sweetness of the 650 motor with the front disc makes it IMHO the best of the 1970s Bonnies.
Just my two cents worth of course.
HTH

We've done this one before.

There were 897 T120Vs at Meriden according to John Healy's copy of the December 1973 stock list and that's not counting any T120Vs that would have already left the factory before the sit-in began so there must have been somewhat more than 250-300.

I think the 897 is the total of 73 and 74 650s, Les.
Certainly didn’t look like that many on the occasions when I walked through the FGS storage shed at Meriden.

1973 models still in the factory months after 1973 production ended?

Well, I seriously doubt that, plus all the T120s subsequently released had 1974 JJ, KJ and NJ date codes!

Thanks everyone for the confirmation of my thoughts. A bike well worth saving, both for the scarcity and rideability!

According to reference material I have available, the T120Vs were KJ58316 - 58795. The last complete bike to leave the factory before the blockade was T140V NJ59750, although there were at least engines made up to NJ 60054

The document in question has a date on it of December 19,1973
It part of a package the workers produced which included costing for each model.

It lists T120RV's (not by model year, but I would be very surprised if there were any 1973 models left in the factory at that late date.

TheseT120RV models were located in various parts of the building, and across the street in Building 2 (now premises of Velocette Motorcycle Company).
It lists T120RV's:
3 in Development Area
5 in the Coseley Building
58 outside in the yard
31 on the rolling road
101 unfinished in No.2 Works across the street
699 Packed and wrapped (I suspect these were stored in the # 2 Works across the street.)
So there would have been few on the floor in Building #1 waiting for packing where you could examine them.

And what about JJ and KJ?

I lost count of the '74 serial numbers given by owners in the 11-page thread, below, but it seems there must have been more than 250-300 '74 T120Vs.

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/how-many-1974-t120-were-built.183933/

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/how-many-1974-t120-were-built.183933/page-4#post-2599253
https://www.triumphrat.net/attachments/74-75-serial-pdf.64834/

My mistake, the T120Vs were KJ58316 - KJ 58795, above post amended. So a total of at least 479 bikes. I don't have complete series, so a few could go into NJ, as i don't know when that started. This could be around serial number 59000. According to my ref, the JJ series were all 500s - TR5T, T100R, T100P and ending with a few T100D, ending at 58013?

Well, here's one that isn't (JJ58102) so there's probably a few more.

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/how-many-1974-t120-were-built.183933/page-10#post-2003899190

In the context of all the above and with thanks to Les for his untiring efforts to correct my (many) errors I will move into the future with the knowledge that less than a thousand 1974 T120s were built.
Very nice bikes— if you have the opportunity to acquire one then take it.
Front disc,rear drum, triplex primary and six bolt tappet inspection covers with the nicer sweet 650 motor that I personally prefer to the 750.
As mentioned there are no specific parts lists or manuals— you have to use a combination of the 1972 T120 and 1974 T140 publications and mix and match!
And watch the cylinder head/rocker box configuration— mine had the T140 configuration but in British Cycle Thread!
Nice bikes but just my two cents worth of course.

From the Bob Myers collection.

Thanks for the info above, its lead me to review all the info and I now come up with a series of T120Vs running JJ58024 - KJ59068 (1044 bikes). There is one entry listed as a T140V in this block, but I'm not sure it is correct, confirmation of others required. It looks like there are also 37 T120Vs in the series NJ60033 - NJ60070 which were not despatched until Mar-May 1975, due to the blockade. If I get further info I will update

Thank you John and thank you Tiger Cub.
John— I have printed off the table you so kindly posted for future reference.
Looks like I have to revise my understanding from “less than a thousand” to “ around a thousand”.
Still nice bikes though.
I wonder how many have survived?
Stupid question I guess as there is no way of knowing.

I once had this conversation with Les Harris. His idea that there must be thousands of Triumph and BSA motorcycles in barns and under apple trees all around the US. What he didn't realize is US dealers stripped thousands of them for spare parts. You could buy a nice Bonneville for as little as $50.00. Then strip it and use the parts so you could continue to fix customer's bikes in the service department. Bob at Iota products had a flat roof over what looked like a 3,000 square foot building stacked with frames. Inside there were stacks of engines that reached the ceiling. Bill Getty, now of JRC Engineering, when he used his shop would strip bikes and when his storage yard was full sell the frames for scrap. Then he would start over again.

You have to remember that starting in 1969 dealers could not get spare parts. BSA, and thus Triumph, was broke. This didn't change until Les Harris started Racing Spares and started to have parts made. It is in this period when I started Coventry Spares Ltd. to make parts in the USA, and John Callichio started JRC Engineering. This led to a very hostile dealer network and by the end of 1972 it came to a head! The event that saved the British motorcycle Industry

This problem of parts shortages must have been caused within the USA distributors.
I can't vouch for the Triumph distributor west of the Mississippi, but Triumph Towson MD did a miserable job of supplying it's dealers.

In 1969 I subscribed to MOTOR CYCLE NEWS, the weekly British publication, and started ordering my parts from Triumph dealers in Britain.
In 10 days I would get anything I wanted, including factory tools and parts books, both of which my local dealers refused to sell to customers.

Best of all, anything I ordered came to me at HALF the USA retail price (or less), shipping included.

So, I believe the parts shortage problem originated due to incompetence here in the USA, NOT in Britain.

Interesting perspectives!
At that time I was living in UK about ten miles from Meriden.
It was well known locally that you could get any Triumph spare part from local dealers.
They used to go in a van to Meriden and get the parts direct from the parts store.
A couple of pounds for a couple of beers for the stores guy and they could have whatever they wanted.
They paid the proper price of course— nothing underhand in the pricing— just getting hold of the parts.
If you wanted under the counter parts that was different— you just went to a particular pub in the local village of Wolston and placed your order for delivery the next Thursday!

IRISH: There was a lot of incompetence to go around.
In the very late 1990's and early 1970's a lot of those spares sold by English dealers were from Les Harris 's Racing Spares sold by himself and distributed by the original WE Wassell Co.. That is a story in itself. Those dealers heading up to the midlands to buy parts would stop at Leighton Buzzard to stock up on Les's Triumph and BSA parts. His prices were nearly half of what the factory parts sold for. You were never sure when you got parts from a UK dealer where they got the parts from.

In 1969 BSA was unable to source funds for the next years production. While Peter Thornton Was flying around the country in private planes and chauffeur driven limousines living the First Class Life he believed he deserved.

Peter Thornton's US Triple Racing effort ate up nearly all of the US profits. While it was always the mantra, "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" it didn't work out that way for the triples.

One of Peter Thornton's more brilliant moves was to increase the 3 month warranty to 6 months while he wasn't paying dealers for the 3 month warranty.

BSA warranties were at a record level (Cycle World reported that they were paying over $800.00 in warranty per bike sold).

The triples were not selling and they had to do a quick redesign and ship all of the tin to dealers and pay them to retrofit models on dealer's floors.

A run of triples were produced where the transmission main shaft was out of line with the primary rear chain wheel needle bearings. This caused the clutch to act like a universal joint. You were lucky to get 800 miles out a clutch.

The 5 speed transmission was a disaster and cost thousands of £. Many engine cases were destroyed when they broke.

A complete build of parts for BSA Fury and Triumph Bandit 350 motorcycles were scrapped and languished in the basement Of MCE in Birmingham..

The US distributor was not paying dealers warranty monies owed for several years.

Umberslade Hall was eating money and producing designs that didn't work and caused huge production delays.

PS I forgot the 2 Million £ fiasco called the Ariel 3 wheeler. A total disaster with the marketing slogan, "Here it is... whatever it is!"

Should I continue?

AND yes, and you wonder why parts were hard to come by.
Oh, and it was the fault of the US management - Well I will give you Peter Throtnton.

My favorite U.K. dealer, from who I ordered the most parts most often, was Allan Jefferies of Shipley, Yorkshire. Excellent service!
They carried large stocks, and informed me they had their own truck that picked up parts orders in Meriden every week.

Another problem with ordering parts from my local dealers was told to me years later by the son of a deceased local Triumph dealer.

It was a policy of the eastern Triumph distributor in Towson, Maryland to give dealers a "special discount" on their orders, but ONLY if the dealer submitted a fully-filled-out page of parts requested. Some dealers didn't have to order that many parts in any given month, so the page wasn't completed for days or weeks at a time.

In those cases, God help you if the parts YOU needed were at the TOP of that list, for you might have a LONG wait before you ever saw them.

I can certainly vouch for the fact that spares were very easy to get in the UK. In the 70s I lived near Leeds and there were no shortage of dealers, such as Watson Cairns, Marsdens, Danny Cork's (can't remember the shop name but my dad knew him - on York Road now) and I visited Allan Jefferies at Shipley many times too, where my TR20 was sold new in 1964.

Irish I was a dealer (worked for one from 1959 and as a dealer from 1966 to 1982), I am not deceased and there was no such policy. In the early 70's the part supply became so dire that they instituted a "Rider on Foot" program. Frank Benson would then try to source the parts and get them to you. There was also no "Special" discount program. The only time there was special pricing was at the annual dealer meeting where they would make up a specials sheet of parts that weren't moving.

While I believe that dealer in the UK made a trip each week to the Midlands. All of the Key dealers did! You do understand the spoke and wheel UK distribution system? They visited Aerco, AMAL, Lucas, WE Wassell, MCA and then MCE to see what they had for bargains.

Wink wink, nod nod. And you believe an English dealer is going to tell you they stopped on the way at Leighton Buzzard to pick up Les Harris pattern parts. Did you know Les had nearly all of the Triumph twin and triple parts available as early as 1970. In a strange arrangement Timmy Wassell (Who was running W E Wassell when his dad died) was the source of much of the financing for Les's parts endeavors. That's a story.

When Les built his Bonneville there were very few parts that he had to tool up for. He already had nearly all of the tooling, and outside vendors, he needed which he had been building up since the early 1970's.

I lived all this and actually traded as LF Harris in the states for a period of about 5 years. I have sat in the House of Commons and discussed the future of Triumph and the Bonneville with Christopher Chataway in the early days of the factory take over. I have been trading in the UK as Coventry Spares Ltd since 1970. Not my first rodeo...

John, all I know is what I have seen, and in the case of the order form, what I was told.
If what I was told about the order form practices was wrong, then "live and learn," I guess.

But before I began dealing with sellers in Britain, I sometimes had to call six dealers within a radius of forty miles from my home to locate parts I needed
if even one of them had any of those parts on the shelf at all. That's a bad situation if you are the bike owner.

I suppose the real question should be; WHY were the parts readily available in England, but not from the USA distributor?
Did the dealer network grow so fast that Triumph H.Q. in Towson MD couldn't keep up with the demand?