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#807918 05/05/20 9:11 am
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Hi everyone, I posted something a while back about a no spark issue with my electronics on the a65 .
After my own testing and elimination process I sent the micro box off to Boyer in Essex . They tested it and found it to be .... er not faulty but not switching. Ok so it’s failed . But, “ it won’t be covered under warranty because of its sudden failure , in our opinion this is caused by a loose earth connection “ 😮😮😮😮🤔
Bolix ! Because it was mounted next to the battery it picked up its + straight from the battery , incidentally all the earth continuity’s were perfect .
In fact I tripled checked all connections and cables for resistance / continuity and all was very good , I did this mainly because I didn’t believe a Boyer unit could fail so early .
Anyhow, they wavered the testing fee cos I purchased a new unit from them , not a full kit , just the micro box £78.00 😮
I could have got a wassel full kit for the same money and IMHO they’re better built , tougher and simpler . Got one on my b50 been on longer and never had an issue . I only went for the Boyer micro box option so I didn’t have to piss about with fitting and routing .
Not very happy with their service.
Beware !


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A classic example of a company shooting itself in the foot! A friend of mine complained about a Motel he stayed in to the management and directly to the Motel Chain, with no satisfaction. So he posted the same complaints on Facebook and got immediate apologies from the Motel Chain.

The power of social media is endless. If you had praised them from sending you a new unit free of charge, they would have got 10 times the business in return. So sad, too bad Boyer.


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Sounds like p*ss poor service especially when you consider that there are better and cheaper EI units available. Although I run a Boyer on my B44 and its been trouble free for 10 years, if I had to replace it I think I would be looking at the Wassel (Vape) or Pazon units.


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Got any photos of the connections/terminals on your box?


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My Boyer Micro Power ignition box failed and their idea of service was to offer to sell me another one.

I didn’t buy another one.


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Hi Alan , they kept the old unit but I had soldered Lucas spades on and heat shrink on the clear insulation to prevent it from moving .
It was as they say “ the belt and braces approach “
There were certainly no loose connections.
The new box they have sent me has cheap crimp connections.
I’m not sure how to post photos on this forum.


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Originally Posted by richiedan40
Hi Alan , they kept the old unit but I had soldered Lucas spades on and heat shrink on the clear insulation to prevent it from moving .
It was as they say “ the belt and braces approach “
There were certainly no loose connections.
The new box they have sent me has cheap crimp connections.
I’m not sure how to post photos on this forum.

Reason I asked is my father had an A/O services regulator for his A10, it failed and was over charging. When it was sent back they said that the box died because of not properly crimped connectors, the vendor though whilst wouldn’t issue a refund did send a new replacement. This got sold on and my dad bought a DVR2 regulator which has been spot on.


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Ah I see . I don’t believe Boyer products and particularly their services are very good , won’t be using them again Alan .
Wassel seems simpler and better made . I’ve only had the wassel system on the b50 for 18 month so I can’t comment on reliability but I’ve got a wassel solid state regulator/rectifier on the a65 and it’s been bob on .


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The problem with a lot of these things is that it's very hard to determine what actually caused the failure.
When you buy a batch of components there is an inevitable failure rate, no semiconductor supplier will
guarantee 100% unless you pay for soak selection which on the volume required by someone like Boyer
would be ludicrous. Then these items are a DIY product and are potted, this means that to establish what
has failed the box must be stripped, effectively a more expensive operation than building one from scratch.
The answer you'll get is based on probability and experience of similar returns. Remember, most blokes that
fit these are not engineers or are not electrically competent. I have seen Boyer and other units working in
many situations where they shouldn't have functioned at all.
I'm not supporting poor quality gear but i am stating that given the product and company has been around
since the 70's with many thousands of installations, and many happy users, they are overall a good product.
If you never have an electronic device failure over your lifetime, you are doing very well!
Look at the RITA device from Lucas, a large company, the design was implemented by triumph and when
the ground connection to the actual casing corroded, the overvoltage protection was obviated, good eh?
Remember as well, if there had been no Boyer there would be no pazon either!

Just my 2c.

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First let me say that I run a Boyer analog EI on my A65 and it has performed satisfactorily for many years. I had to replace the black box once, but that was way beyond the warranty period.

That said, my engine man, who also peddled parts, mentioned in passing one day that he stopped selling Boyer EIs in favor of Pazon because Pazon was much better in honoring their warranties. He said he had to "eat" a couple of Boyer returns because Boyer refused to honor a warranty. Assuming his claims were valid, this is especially poor treatment for a dealer.

It sounds like Richie's is a warranty issue rather than one of product reliability. However, unless I missed it, he didn't say how recent the purchase was.


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Much like JP who make a reasonably good piston but steadfastly refuse to sell them bare or without the junk rings , Boyer have always used cheap interior insulated crimp connectors
Even worse they use a terminal that is too large for the wire it is crimped onto in order to fit the original Lucas bullet connectors.
Way way way back when they first came out the buzz around all the clubs was to cut off the crimps where fitted and solder or crimp the right sized Lucas terminals .
having done that and drilled a hole for a zip tie to take the strain off the pick up wires the original red box Boyers were industructable & I for one ran one for decades with not problems.
Thos who did not heed the warnings about the bad terminals ended up doing a lot of pushing or if I was with them, a road side repair.
In particular the ring terminal that was supposed to connect to the battery was very prone to simply falling out of the crimp .

Neither, not those who I might ride with have had any problems with the Boyers once proper connectors have been fitted and that includes 2 pieces of heat shring to support the wire at the connection.

However as Mr kelly is a local and the T rispark is a substantially better unit , not just 1/2 a Rita running in parallel most of us have switched without any who-har should our Boyers pack it in.


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When I bought my Pazon originally it was a toss up between Pazon and tri-spark, the tri spark have known to be reliable on the triple but there was conjecture about the model for the twins as it was built on to the stator plate and prone to vibration And heat caused Failures. So reading what everyone writes I went with the Pazon. Generally I’ve been happy with it but as previously mentioned they haven’t been without fault.


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I bought it 3 1/2 years ago , I’m of the belief that the warranty is five years .
It’s the service I’m pissed off about ,
I would of been quite happy with a “ we’ll supply a black box at cost , very sorry “
And it would of been reasonable service but ...
Hey ho , hard luck mate £78 quid for a new one , take it or leave it “
Or as was ..... take it or pay us the 17 quid testing fee .


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Boyer uses the thinnest wires possible!

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We have been distributing electronic ignitions for nearly 50 years. We stock Tri-Spark, Pazon, Boyer, Sparx when they were available, and Vape. Unless a copy of the original sales slip is offered, the typical warranty is based upon the production date on the unit. We track failures and have found that based upon units sold failure rates are about the same for all brands.

From the start, we have always offered free testing on units sold by one of our US dealers. You think the unit is bad, you send it to us for testing. If it fails, and is still under warranty (production date or original sales receipt), we send you another unit. If it tested good we return it postage paid.

Any electronic ignition is only as good, or reliable, as the condition of the motorcycles electrical system. This means the charging system must be able to charge the battery (requires 13.8 to 14.2 volts) at the engine rpm you ride the motorcycle. For the most part this means keeping engine rpm's above 3,000 rpm. Yes, you can damage (sulphate) a battery with a good charging system if you are riding at an rpm where the battery voltage does not reach 13.8 volts. To run an electronic ignition you need a KNOWN GOOD battery (notice I didn't say new).

The electronics that make the magic work have a quite narrow voltage tolerance. Too low and the unit will not turn on, or be erratic. Too high (approx. 17 volts) and you can damage the unit (don't worry, inspection will quickly determine if the unit was subjected to excess voltage). There are conditions with electrical systems where the charging voltage can exceed, or spike, the max. voltage the ignition unit can tolerate. That is not a problem with the ignition!

So to is the tolerance to excessive heat. The unit is rated for use at no more than 5 amps continuous. With increases of ambient air temperature this amp rating drops. The control box must located so it will get some air flow to cool it. This also means the coils resistance, or coils in series, must be within the units max/min measurement. Typically between 3 and 7 ohms.

You MUST only use coils designed for the ignition unit. If the ignition was designed to be used with a dwell coil (one used with points and condenser) you MUST NOT use one used for a modern pulse coil. The same goes for a unit designed to be used with a pulse coil. Swapping coils will damage unit. In the case of using a pulse coil with a dwell system the failure is instant (coil resistance of less than 1 ohm). I isn't as quick when using a dwell with a pulse system, but failure is assured.

I see the "connector police" are around. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the connectors used by Boyer!!!! They are the same ones used on a lot of light aircraft. They REQUIRE the use of the proper tool to DOUBLE crimp them. Also the male-female connectors for the black, white and red wires are put on in a pattern to protect you from crossing wires and burning out the box!. I get more boxes back than not for testing where the original connectors were replaced in the most un-workmanship way possible. This is one of those cases where "better is good's worst enemy".
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/cate...njr2k6QIVka_ICh10ZQvAEAAYASABEgJISfD_BwE

And by the way the size of the wire has at least a 50% safety factor for the current the unit draws.

Here's something I wrote 20 odd years ago:
http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/Boyer-trouble-shooting/

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I prefer the Boyer mark IV, because of its simpicity. I have one on my T.bolt, and it has served me well for 20 years, and i ride a lot. I have another one on the Lightning. I bought that second hand three years ago.
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I find the theory of keeping the box cool difficult
All the components on a Boyer micro are sealed in gel
No heat sink no nothing
It’ll only over heat if it’s drawing too much current
And that for me is internal resistance.


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Quote
It’ll only over heat if it’s drawing too much current

I guess you have never been in New Mexico in the summer.
I guess you have never seen an electronic ignition wrapped in insulating foam.
I guess you have never seen wrapped in insulating foam and packed away in a sealed tool box.

With a Boyer the internal heat sink is flush with the side of the plastic case. Yes, it does make a difference if the control unit is insulated in some way, and not out in the air! Of course then there is the Tr-Spark where Steve Kelly has spent a lot of effort to get components for the unit that resides in the timing cover that will survive abnormal engine heat. Again, the heat yo experience in Wales is a lot different from what riders experience in Texas, New Mexico, Nevada and Southern California. Ambient air temperature is a factor on how hot these air cooled engines run (in a lot of cases they need to run 60 straight weight oil just to get oil pressure).

This is especially true when the ambient air temperature reflected from fresh macadam (hot top) can actually give the sole of your foot a second degree burn through your riding boots. Ask me how I know - Mid-day, Kansas in August on the interstate highway with fresh hot top and ambient air temperature 100°F plus.

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"So I read on the internet that the Boyer connectors are crap."

Now would you warranty this installation? The customer thought I should.

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Scotch locks, no second crimp to support cable on Lucar terminals and I’m assuming the black box is wrapped in that duck tape? I just hope there was some Coffee in that can because that’s what it aught to be doing. Then folk blame Joe Lucas for poor quality laughing


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No doubting John Healy's expertise and experience BUT ………
Right up front, I do not have Boyer, and from the comments posted here I doubt I will get one for my next bike, there seems to be design philosophy issues.

Something as basic as the connectors, "They REQUIRE the use of the proper tool to DOUBLE crimp them" … why on Gods green earth sell a kit for home installation that has connectors that REQUIRE a tool that many do not have (before you ask, yes I do actually have one).
Wires that have only 50% overbuild seems very small to me, even domestic wiring has more than that.
Why design something that can only work in such a small operating window re voltage and current? and why if you stray outside these narrow parameters do you allow it to damage the unit? It is pretty simple to include polarity, temp and current protection.
It is a bit of a cop out to sell a unit for amateur home installation then blame failures on installation.
Non of the above, of course, applies to equipment designed for professional use. Professionals, like John Healy, are supposed to know better, muppets like me no so much. My Vape was wired wrong wat round for quite a while, didn't work, but also did not disappear into a puff of blue smoke.

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Originally Posted by Dave Martin
even domestic wiring has more than that.

I hope you’re right. Domestic wiring can burn your house.


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Quote
My Vape was wired wrong wat round for quite a while, didn't work, but also did not disappear into a puff of blue smoke.

On the face of that statement it is true. If you by mistake connect up the right pair of wires you will not damage the unit. So in a 50/50 situation you lucked out. Now if you inadvertently connected up a specific pair of wires you would would short full battery current directly through the switching transistor to ground. But with a Boyer Ernie thought of that an arranged the male and female connectors so you couldn't do that. Of course if you snip off the original connectors, and put on your own, all male on the box side and all female on the harness side there is always the opportunity to let all of the smoke out of the box.

The clue is evident with a Boyer that you connected the box up backward when you see the plastic box near a bottom corner distorted from the heat generated from the dead short (like putting a screw driver across the battery terminals). Failure because you connected the wires up wrong It is not so obvious with some other systems, but they are still dead.

Quote
Why design something that can only work in such a small operating window re voltage and current?

You could put it down to availability of the right components, size and cost.

Quote
Something as basic as the connectors, "They REQUIRE the use of the proper tool to DOUBLE crimp them"

With a little practice one can use the connector single crimping tool available a most hardware stores to make perfectly acceptable double crimps. The first retains the wire and the second provides strain release by capturing the insulation. Properly done the wire will break before the connection fails.

Quote
It is a bit of a cop out to sell a unit for amateur home installation then blame failures on installation.

I think about this a lot. In a philosophical way I agree with you! The answer is not simple. You could say, "Because you can."

The internet has made it easy to buy products that require professional installation, or knowledge. At the same time the educational system has removed even the basic classes that would give you a basic understanding of how things are made, and work.

We have people who have to hire an electrician to change a light bulb installing an electronic device that requires a lot of understanding of the other parts that make up the electrical system and tools to install and diagnose when things go wrong. This applies to all of the electronic ignitions that we commonly discuss on these forums. When things go right they are ALL brilliant. When they don't it always seems to be the manufacturer's fault.

A friend is often fond of saying, "Installing an electronic ignition it the first day of improving your electrical system."

When I was in school we started industrial arts courses in the 6th grade with basic wood working skills. Then in the rest of the years, even the kids who took advanced college classes, were exposed to: Sign painting, machine shop, electrical shop, advanced wood working, print shop. In addition, at the Technical High School I attended, we had all kinds of drafting (electrical, mechanical, architectural, pattern making, and sheet metal). We also had advanced machine shop, forging shop, pattern making, and casting. In the 7th grade I understood how a circuit worked.

It isn't easy to make a product where you have no control of the environment where it is used and the ability of the person doing the installation or diagnosing. Take the simple statement I hear a lot with customers who have a MKIV Boyer, or other units that turn off the switching transistor when the bike is not running, (wired positive ground), "I have 12 volts at the white wire going to the control box it must be the box that has failed." Understanding why this observation could on the face of it be correct, but for diagnosing a circuit it is meaningless is important.

I agree with you 100% that consumers are able to buy things that require a lot of experience, understanding and are willing to go through the required learning curve. For example I don't understand "amateur home installation" why anyone can sell a 12:1 piston to the general public. But the internet, and lack of general technical knowledge gets us to where we are, and we are not going to change it in my lifetime. And at 81 I am still learning!!!

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because one guy does not know how to wire a Boyer ,
is a lousy justification for denying another guy's warranty claim .

sounds like crappy warranty service ...

the original poster said he got 3 years of decent service out of the product ... the implication of 3 years service
is that the wiring
was installed correctly .

it seems amplifier box
failed in normal service ... not an installation error... if Boyer claims this can't happen
its mocking its own warranty process .

... the amplifier box is warrantied for 5 years .
and many people have these unit last for 20 or more ... no one is faulting the product ... its
the warranty process that is at question .

if the ground was faulty ( boyers claim ? ) ... the unit would have turned off , ... not killed itself .
the box failed , it happens ,
send the man a new amplifier box .

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Originally Posted by quinten
if the ground was faulty ( boyers claim ? ) ... the unit would have turned off , ... not killed itself .
the box failed , it happens ,
send the man a new amplifier box .


Depends in what way faulty, if your going to not connect the ground wire at all then it’s not going to switch on, similarly if the ground wire breaks, it will switch off. But if you have a connection that is going to make-break-make-break and on and on and aided by road conditions and vibrations of the bike then something will get pretty hot (through increased resistance), and burn out, or it will try and Find the path of
Least resistance, this might then be back through another Component until it reaches earth. Or at least tries to.

I think about it in the same way stick welding works. If you touch the welding rod to the metal and you get a spark (same
With a live circuit that makes a connection to ground). Keep the welding rod against the metal and it won’t do much of anything, same with your wire in circuit. But keep it touching on-off-on-off and you’ll get lots of sparks, burn etc etc. (From this point stick welding differs as to make the weld you want to keep a specific gap after striking for the welding process to occur)


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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