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Richrd Offline OP
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What a out the cra k pinion? The book shows the pic in the book shows the keyway
at 2 o'clock but mine is at 4.

I'll try bumping the cam to the dash. Would that one tooth be enough to cause this much problem?


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Originally Posted by Richrd
What a out the cra k pinion? The book shows the pic in the book shows the keyway
at 2 o'clock but mine is at 4.


I don't think the crank keyway is drawn accurately. I believe the crank dot is supposed to be nine teeth from the keyway?



Originally Posted by Richrd
I'll try bumping the cam to the dash. Would that one tooth be enough to cause this much problem?


I doubt one tooth out would be enough to prevent it from running or showing some sign of life but I don't know.

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Richrd Offline OP
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Is it possible that these gears were from a twin?
This was a bike in the box when I got it.


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Originally Posted by Richrd
Is it possible that these gears were from a twin?


I'm not sure but the intermediate gear looks like a 'triple' part.

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Richrd Offline OP
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just for fun I put the left piston at tdc with both valves closed and blew air in the cylinder. with a stethescope I could hear nothing at the exhaust or breather but clearly air escaping at the intake.

please tell me I dont have to pull the head.


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You say that you have checked the valve timing---is that just by setting the dots and dashes etc on the timing pinions?
You say that it was in bits---maybe the DPO has tried to fine tune it and put the camshaft keys in one of the non standard keyways in the pinions.
Suggest that you take off the timing pinion retaining nuts and check that the keys on both inlet and exhaust camshafts are in the keyway in the pinion opposite to the marks (dots, dashes etc.).
HTH

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P.S. ---remember the pinion retaining nuts are left hand thread!

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One tooth on a cam pinion is 15 degrees change in valve timing.
Using a different key way is 5 degrees change.
Had a twin at the shop where I once worked which was one tooth off timing. It would barely start but wouldn't take throttle.
You might have a close look to see if there are numbers cast into the gears. 650 pinions are a different part number from Trident.


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Forgive me, DavidP, I write this not to be contrary but for my own edification: The inlet and exhaust gears are only partially visible in Rich'rd's photo, but the idler gear has 46 teeth. If the cam gears are the same diameter as the idler, would not one tooth "out" mean a difference of 7.8 degrees in valve timing?
Paul.


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Cam gears are never the same size as the idler.


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Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
but the idler gear has 46 teeth. If the cam gears are the same diameter as the idler, would not one tooth "out" mean a difference of 7.8 degrees in valve timing?


The cam gears have 50 teeth, which is 7.2 camshaft degrees per tooth = 14.4 crankshaft degrees.

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Looks like a good news bad news thing.

Neither of the cam gear keyways are opposite the marks, which is likely to be my problem. Bad news is I think I'm the idiot that screwed it up.

Please clarify which keyway I need to use.

Thanks


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Originally Posted by Richrd
Please clarify which keyway I need to use.


The keyway adjacent to the timing mark.

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Re:
The cam gears have 50 teeth, which is 7.2 camshaft degrees per tooth = 14.4 crankshaft degrees

Figured it might be such. Many thanks.

Re: Bad news is I think I'm the idiot that screwed it up.

smile


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I just quoted what it says in the WSM.


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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by Richrd
What a out the cra k pinion? The book shows the pic in the book shows the keyway
at 2 o'clock but mine is at 4.


I don't think the crank keyway is drawn accurately. I believe the crank dot is supposed to be nine teeth from the keyway?



Originally Posted by Richrd
I'll try bumping the cam to the dash. Would that one tooth be enough to cause this much problem?


I doubt one tooth out would be enough to prevent it from running or showing some sign of life but I don't know.

LAB I think that would be on a Norton, but not sure. On a Triumph the half time pinion mark is on the keyway, and points straight up at TDC on a twin. Probably on cyl #1 on a triple. Let me check.
Richrd, yes the engine will usually run with the wheels one tooth out in either direction, but the valves can come dangerously close to each other on overlap.

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Originally Posted by Stein Roger
LAB I think that would be on a Norton, but not sure. On a Triumph the half time pinion mark is on the keyway, and points straight up at TDC on a twin. Probably on cyl #1 on a triple. Let me check.


Twins, yes.Triples no. Plus on the triples, I believe it's the drive-side (cylinder 3) that's at TDC.

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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by Stein Roger
LAB I think that would be on a Norton, but not sure. On a Triumph the half time pinion mark is on the keyway, and points straight up at TDC on a twin. Probably on cyl #1 on a triple. Let me check.


Twins, yes.Triples no. Plus on the triples, I believe it's the drive-side (cylinder 3) that's at TDC.

I wish I would stop commenting when I don't know what I'm talking about... facepalm
I didn't find the pinion for my R3 engine,but the keyway in the crank is cut in line with the middle cylinder at TDC. However, looking in the Manual it would appear that the dot on the pinion points upwards with the key in the 2 o'clock position, 4 teeth away. I believe that corresponds with the DS cylinder as you say.

SR

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Originally Posted by Stein Roger
I didn't find the pinion for my R3 engine,but the keyway in the crank is cut in line with the middle cylinder at TDC. However, looking in the manual it would appear that the dot on the pinion points upwards with the key in the 2 o'clock position, 4 teeth away. I believe that corresponds with the DS cylinder as you say.



I believe the triple crank pinion slot is nine teeth from the dot which puts it around the 4 o'clock position as Richrd said.
http://www.klempfsbritishparts.com/GEAR--TIMING-PINION--TRIPLE-0
[Linked Image from klempfsbritishparts.com]

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Richrd Offline OP
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How does 110 pounds of compression sound?

Thanks for the help and maybe this bitch will run yet.


Rich
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For a cold engine that hasn't seated the rings, that sound pretty good.


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Neighbors in Springfield reported hearing the unmistakable sound a triple emminating from a shop on maple street. Supposedly followed by bad language and cussing about a clutch.....................................


Rich
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Piece of Cake !!

Terrier like tenacity pays off, well done,

Best regards

Esme


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Great thread, great advice and great outcome

















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Great news!
Now check the head torque and reset the valves.
Then start a thread about the clutch and we'll try to help with that.
beerchug


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