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I think the clutch hub will go as far onto the mainshaft with the key as without, but requires the pressure of the nut being tightened full down.

I would first fasten down the clutch hub and clutch center without the chainwheel (and without the key is ok), and make sure there is clearance between the clutch hub and the cover plate behind. Once you've established that there's clearance there, you can rule out the hub-to-mainshaft fit as a problem.

Then the only issue is clearance for the chainwheel (and thrust washer) between the clutch hub and the clutch center. Here I would (and sorry I didn't suggest this sooner) assemble all without the thrust washer. If there's no binding, and you can feel a bit of in and out play on the chainwheel, then you will know the thrust washer is the problem. If it binds without the thrust washer, then there is some sort of fit problem between the clutch center and the clutch hub. But I've never seen that, and, looking at the pieces, I don't see how wear could allow the center to slip farther onto the hub.



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One more thing out of left field:

When fully assembled, make sure that the center screws/bolts and spring studs are properly seated. If positioned incorrectly, they can get stuck between the center and the chainwheel and cause issues.

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You can see unthreaded mainshaft at the end of the hub. As a guess I’m going to say the hub is poorly machined. Rarely that the mainshaft is a problem, unless it’s been messed with or replaced with a poor remanufactured piece. Could really do with another mainshaft just to slide that hub on to.


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Now lets all have a beer!

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Originally Posted by MarcB
One more thing out of left field:

When fully assembled, make sure that the center screws/bolts and spring studs are properly seated. If positioned incorrectly, they can get stuck between the center and the chainwheel and cause issues.


Because of issues with screws falling out, the solution on later bikes was to size the holes out and through bolt them, after replacing the internals I’ve even welded the bolts to the face plate to stop those undoing, then ground what was left of the bolt head/nut flush so it doesn’t foul the basket or the lifting plate. The present screws secured with locktite and “centre punched” will work for a good while.


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If the key prevents full engagement, modify the key.


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Nick H Offline OP
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Ok, here's what I think is going on.
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
When tightened, area "A" will contact area "D" (a two ring area surrounding the bearings) on the basket.
I guess this is supposed to be the bearing surface as the taper on the splines will not limit the centre's travel.
Area "C" is about .013" higher than "A" and will rotate above the bearings, but not touch them. They sit lower.
I believe my area "A" has worn allowing the outer edge of the centre, area "B" to rub on the inside of the basket.
This is causing my binding issue.
This is only my theory. I'm hoping the experts here can confirm.
If this is the problem, I will need a new "inner plate" for my centre. Part number T-1720
I hope I can find a vendor that will sell just that part so I don't have to buy an entire centre.
I'm also considering shimming the inner plate so that the outer edge doesn't bind.
Can anyone tell me how much clearance should be there on the edge of the centre?
I have contact there even without tightening.

Last edited by Nick H; 05/17/19 9:53 pm.

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First job is to sort out why the hub is pulling all the way back to the trap door, is it a bad hub or a bad mainshaft??? Once you know that is right you may find it all fits and works as is. The parts your asking about the measurement of seem fine, the centre will only pull on so far, so if the back plate isn’t flush or raised with that then this isn’t the problem. Have you blued anything up?

Chances are that your clutch is pulling back further than you think, fouling the back of the cases pushing the basket forward and trapping the lot.

So once again, sort the hub/mainshaft issue first.


Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...

Now lets all have a beer!

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The hub is not pulling all the way back to the trap door. I proved this with felt tip in lieu of engineers blue (good idea, thanks!). This was with everything tightened up.
Without the key, the hub does spin on the shaft and will pull back to the trap door (as in my photo) but with the key in it does not.

I believe the problem lies with the centre binding on the basket.
The felt tip also proved that the centre is contacting the basket around it's edge (area "B") and also in the outer ring of those double rings (area "D") surrounding the bearings.
I wouldn't think the edge of the centre should be contacting but my question is, is it correct to riding on those double rings?

The centre should spin somewhat freely when the shaft nut is torqued and it does not. This is my problem.

Oh, and I tried assembly without the thrust washer (another good idea, thanks!)
This improved the situation somewhat, but the centre still did not turn as freely as I think it should. And this was not at full torque as none of these tests are.

I suppose I could start throwing new parts at it.


Last edited by Nick H; 05/18/19 3:40 pm.

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The hub should not slide all the way to the trapdoor, sounds like its either the wrong part or its terribly worn. it should be stopped by the taper. or the mainshaft is badly worn or possibly both.





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Just looked at two baskets, one new, and the race the bearings ride on and pressed into the basket is flush on both sides of the basket. If I’m reading your numbers correctly your race is protruding out/away from the basket by .013, this could be your problem. If you have a press you might try moving the race back into the basket until it’s flush with the basket. If the race moves easily you might be in the market for a new basket. I would also use the thrust washer with the tabs on it.

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Originally Posted by Nick H
The hub is not pulling all the way back to the trap door. I proved this with felt tip in lieu of engineers blue (good idea, thanks!). This was with everything tightened up.
Without the key, the hub does spin on the shaft and will pull back to the trap door (as in my photo) but with the key in it does not.
.



The key is NOT there to stop the hub pulling all the way back, the job it performs is quite minimal as the taper should do all the work.


So to re-itterate... You should be able to fit the hub WITHOUT the key and it should sit in exactly the same position as if the key was fitted. IF it doesn't then you have a problem.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The hub should not slide all the way to the trapdoor, sounds like its either the wrong part or its terribly worn. it should be stopped by the taper. or the mainshaft is badly worn or possibly both.






If you'd rather not listen to my help, listen to Gavin. He's been on here a long time and been enjoying the hobby for one heck of a long time.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 05/18/19 8:24 pm.

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Allen, I hear you loud and clear. And Gavin.

But let me take one issue at a time. I took off the trapdoor as a test to prove conclusively that my hub is not binding there.
However incorrect, the key is holding the hub from sliding too far back.

A new hub may fit the shaft correct and I could still have a binding problem which is why I'm trying to understand how these parts are supposed to interact.
Or I may need a new shaft (pricey) to fix the hub/shaft issue and still have a binding problem.


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In this design of clutch the key is totally superfluous.
It does not transmit torque and it does not locate anything circumferentially.
You could build the clutch leaving the key out completely and it should work perfectly well.
If the key is stopping the taper engaging then you have a faulty key---either file it to fit or throw it away.
This is fundamental to the clutch operating correctly.
If the taper is not engaging then everything else you are talking about is just like pissing in the wind.
Don't know what the Scottish is for that--but I am sure Gavin will oblige!
HTH

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Right. I understand that. Something about molecules I read in another thread.
I prefer to call it "multi-tasking"
And I realize that if I ran it with this bodge, I would likely shear off that key and cause terrible collateral damage!
I'll be shopping for parts.

Last edited by Nick H; 05/18/19 10:29 pm.

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You would sheer the key as soon as you selected gear for the first time and released the clutch, no only would you have sheered the key but you would destroy the taper on the hub too and at best be spending a very long time lapping it with a replacement hub to get it back into shape.

It’s quite possible that who ever machined the hub wrong in the first place on the taper also machined where the rollers go incorrectly too. If you can find a good second hand hub. Or again visit a reputable supplier for a new or good second hand one.

As annoying as it may seem also, you best changing only one piece at a time, not only could it save you money but you know where the fault is in the first place.

Important to note that even without basket and rollers in place the clutch centre should only be able to slide so far down the hub splines. As a side note do you have the thick washer that goes behind the nut?


Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...

Now lets all have a beer!

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"If the taper is not engaging then everything else you are talking about is just like pissing in the wind.
Don't know what the Scottish is for that--but I am sure Gavin will oblige!"

Same expression, Scots add an H to pissing. to make it pishing.

Similar, "Farting against thunder".

What gets me is this.
From the OPs 1st post
"The clutch has mostly new parts and worked fine before the teardown."


What new parts exactly?
The cush drive unit has 13 thou of wear, which will not help anything,

i cant imagine how the clutch was OK if the centre hub is so bad .
I would fit a complete new cush drive centre assembly as well as a new hub.
Hopefully the mainshaft isnt too far gone.
When the centre splined section of the spider shows proud ( 0.013") thats the internal wear between spider and end plate rearing its ugly head.


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Right, it was the original owner, builder who told me the clutch was new....
It was working alright, suprisingly given the wear and the incorrect thrust washer which was highly worn and misshapen.

I've ordered a new hub and inner plate for starters.

I do have the fat washer that goes before the nut.

Last edited by Nick H; 05/19/19 5:21 pm.

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Measured a new spider with new end plate and the spider is proud of the plate by .006.

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Thanks, Sam, for the measurements of your new parts!

I'm not sure where or how the "internal wear" Gavin speaks of is happening that caused my spider to be proud by .013".
Possibly the movement of the spider inside as it travels back and forth on the rebound rubbers.
I may order a new spider.


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If you remove the end plate it will be obvious if the end plate is wore out as it will have grooves and scoring marks on it as will the spider. Remove the rubber shock absorbers, reassemble the spider and check the lateral play of the spider, it should not have much or any play. I feel your pain as this is a process of elimination and can drive you nuts, been there on many occasions. The majority of folks on this forum have a wealth of knowledge and many years experience with good intentions but there are somethings the workshop manuals don’t cover. Good luck.

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A new spider wont fix it, the end plate of the cush drive assembly is needed as well. By the time you cost up individual parts of the cush assembly its almost cheaper to get a whole new unit. Thats assuming you can find a spare end plate, last time I tried , i failed. With a fresh new centre you win on several points, new rubbers, unworn drive slots, fresh spider etc.
i have tried to bring worn cush centres back to life on the cheap, I now file that under "senseless waste of human effort"


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I agree with that last paragraph. Spent hours surface planing end plates to remove the grooves, it helped but not perfect, then used a worn and beat up clutch hub to hold the spider in place, welded clutch plates to a bar just to fit the rubbers, they work ok in the end but with all that effort I fitted a Bob Newby for around £500 and never looked back.


Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...

Now lets all have a beer!

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Probably going to wish I just bought a complete centre, but found an end plate on line for like $13 and a spider for $20. Also have a hub coming.
Then couldn't get those countersunk screws out even with my impact driver and ended up drilling them out. Talk about your waste of human effort!
Now have to buy new screws of course.
Then I may find that the problem is with the main shaft!
We shall see.
Meanwhile the bikes roar past my house all day just to taunt me.


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Maybe (or not) it will become clear when I get the new parts but I'm afraid I still don't understand how the centre will be able to spin freely when tightened down to the basket at 50 ft/lbs.


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The centre is NOT tightened down onto the basket
The centre is tightened down onto the hub and the basket rotates in the space between the two


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