Britbike forum

Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesThe Bonneville ShopLowbrow CustomsGirling Classic MotorcycleLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade Your membership! Premium Membership Gold Membership Vendor Membership

New Sponsor post
5% Off Everything for Brit Bike Users
by The Bonneville Shop - 12/30/21 4:54 pm
New FAQ post
Manuals on DVD - Buy 4 for 3
All 4 DVD Manual
Member Spotlight
Robert Dentico
Robert Dentico
Mid -Coast Maine - US
Posts: 312
Joined: December 2007
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Top Posters(30 Days)
Cyborg 60
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
Cyborg 22
NickL 21
Newest Members
Andyozz, BCDEREK, Flatspot, Larry Nelson, Binksy
11,983 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (NYBSAGUY, Chris Johnson, Aboatguy), 26 guests, and 16 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums35
Topics75,267
Posts758,183
Members11,983
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,678
Likes: 16
H
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
H
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,678
Likes: 16
Reverb,
Both the inlet and outlet connections on the MAP filter are at the top. I mounted it using one of the case mount bolts. It's inside the frame so it is not very noticeble.
Hillbilly,
I've dropped the plate once in the 15 years the MAP return filter has been on there. It was perfectly clean. I don't plan on dropping it again.
Htown


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Triumphs on eBay
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 207
G
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 207
Same experience with return line spin on, no need to clean the strainer. One of my least favourite jobs.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi Tigernuts, According to Motoa they sent me the latest version. Visually it matches the photo of the "improved" version on their web site. If you look at the photo on Motao's web site you can see they indeed fit oil line facing rearward.

An online member just recently in the past month or so fitted a new Motao filter & indeed it needed to face rearward as well. If there is a 3rd version that doesn't have to be fit facing rear I've not seen it. The holes were too small for simple fit on this filter as well. The holes came 21/64 (clearance size for 5/16). I opened to 11/32 for very easy fit.

Even on the new kits the lower o-ring is still too large! Most users just leave it off as the lower plate fits very closely to the base. Because I have lathe I made a custom lower plate with at groove that 100% contains the lower o-ring. The original plate just has a square shoulder with no positive containment of the ring.

Motao sells 2 filter kits. I get the later kit. The oring is the difference.

Would be interesting to correspond with Trace about these filters. Does he have detailed photos on the various versions? I contacted Motoa via email, but they never responded. If Trace personally actually fitted one on a T140 I think it would really make a difference. The design is solid & very quality materials, but the engineering is not quite done. Here is another question.... Is the cross brace on all the center stands in the same place? If there are differences in fore/aft position of these brace that would explain things.

If Trace would be willing it would be nice to have a clarification on the kits.

Thanks, Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,764
Likes: 49
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,764
Likes: 49
+1 for the Charlies type. They offer almost no restriction to flow, it's a non-issue. Pressure has no influence on whether a particle will be caught or not.
I don't think it's much of a job to change them, and they last for years in most bikes anyway.
I make my own, easy enough with a suitable (common) filter, a threaded rod, a few nuts, a suitable washer and some Loctite.

Oljefilter.gif
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
Well I can't account for the differences between what you've found and what I've found, Don. I have three Motao sump plates and none of them need to be fitted with the oil pipe facing rearwards (I wouldn't use anything that did - it seems ridiculous!). On my bikes they fit as you would expect, ie: with the oil pipe facing forwards as per the original, and there are no centrestand clearance issues. I have fitted them with the standard centrestand for all T140V & E models, as well as with the stand for the D models (2-into-1 exhaust, meaning the leg on the left side projects much less far due to no need for exhaust clearance).

It seems very odd that you and people you know have been sent plates that need to go on backwards.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 109
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 109
Looking at the pics or Motao showing off their "new 2016 design" in comparison to the "old design", the only difference I can make out is that less material is miiled off across the middle in the new.

http://www.motaoshop.com/index.php?rt=product/product&product_id=126

I'm not sure why any would be removed in the first place, as it weakens the plate against warping. I would rather have the ribs continuing fully across from one end to the other, but it seems there's a reason with the stand brace? As can be seen here.

http://www.motaoshop.com/index.php?rt=product/product&product_id=175


This seems to be what makes it directional (as in forwards or rearwards), though if for whatever reason your stand doesn't retract that far, or the brace isn't exactly in the same position, that may change matters, and the plate may happily go on the other way round.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,490
Likes: 197
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,490
Likes: 197
I presume that to make this work on a '71 OIF one would need to block off the original oil feed from the side of the tube?


"The Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing, once they've tried everything else" Winston Churchill
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi DavidP, On the early version '71 frame the oil feed pipe not only exits the back side of back bone, but extends inside & turns down entering the strainer screen. The strainer on this early version has a hole in the top for the oil pipe to go down through. The later version screen is solid screen across the top with oil feed nipple pressed into the frame sump cover. So the Charile's or Motao filters will not fit in this type frame.

If I had an early frame I would use one of the filters installed in the return hose. I would not want to cut off the oil tube inside the frame & block off the exterior tube. That's my feeling on that.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi All, Looking at my Motao sump plate the cross milled "groove" for the center stand is in the center of the plate according to my dividers. At least very close. As you can see in Motao's photo the drain plug is off set.

On my bike the cross brace of center stand is not actually centered in groove, but biased slightly to rear. This causes the brace to hit drain plug head. However with cover facing rear the plug head just misses. So it seems the variation in center stand part numbers is a key factor. Wiggling my stand the stand mounting bolts/holes do not seem worn or loose.

Looking at my notes, both the other bikes are 1973 as mine is. So it seems their stands are same as mine (as would be expected). On one of the bikes the owner was certain stand cleared, but turns out was like mine when he double checked.

I don't have photo Hosting. If someone wants to PM me their email address I'll send photos of my drain bolt hitting stand. Then you could post them for me. Thanks!
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
Likewise, I'd be happy to send pics of my TR7 centrestand in the retracted position, the cross-brace neatly fitting the Motao 'groove'. Wouldn't it be great if this site could be changed so that members could post photos easily?

Maybe there were changes to the stand design over the years, for some reason? My TR7 is a 1980 model. The 'D' was 1979 and the other one I have no idea (a bitsa) but as the stand is identical to the TR7, maybe it is a later one too. If this is the case, I'll make a point of checking any stand/s I buy for my other bitsa projects - I didn't know there were any differences other than to the mounting bolt arrangements.

On the matter of weakening by milling the slot across the ribs, I take your point Koan, but if you were to compare a Motao plate to a stock T140 plate, you'd see that the former is still significantly stiffer and stronger than the latter.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,764
Likes: 49
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,764
Likes: 49
[quote=Tigernuts]Wouldn't it be great if this site could be changed so that members could post photos easily?quote]

Morgan thinks it's worth $24 to allow you to post photos easily, and I happen to agree... Which is why I upgraded to a Premium Membership.

Last edited by Stein Roger; 04/08/19 8:41 pm.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi Tigernuts, I see the center stand part # changed from my '73 to different in the 76/77 parts book. I don't know what the differences are. I think the tires got larger at same time so maybe it's longer?? Then your TR7RV has different # again. Nothing is simple with Triumph!
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Tigernuts, I see the center stand part # changed from my '73 to different in the 76/77 parts book. I don't know what the differences are. I think the tires got larger at same time so maybe it's longer?? Then your TR7RV has different # again. Nothing is simple with Triumph!



It seems there was a change made to the pivot stop lugs.

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...ing-a-hard-time-getting-it-up#Post693799


The '73 (late '72) - '76, 83-4615 centre stand is 9 1/4" (pivot centre to foot).

The '77 -'79, the 83-4941 stand is supposedly 10 1/8" (same length as the high seat frame 83-2627 stand!!) which I don't think is correct and would certainly be too long for my '78 T140V, its stand is 9 1/4".

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...ing-a-hard-time-getting-it-up#Post693763

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/09/19 8:06 pm.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,321
Likes: 16
Yes, I think we're getting to the explanation on this now. Although as you say (LAB), the probaility is that the reference you've found is incorrect, yet there clearly were changes to the stand or their mounting lugs post-'73. I wonder if Trace is aware of this? I certainly wasn't. He must have a fair number of pissed off customers with earlier bikes.

On the $24 fee to upgrade membership, I'm sure it is fair value, and it would be nice to support everything I feel any affinity with, but I can;t afford to do that. I already support various charities and I already pay annual membership for TOMCC, BSAOC and TR3OC. So, I remain hopeful that this forum will one day provide free and simple to use photo posting.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 8
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 8
I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Apparently these things have been around for some time from various vendors, I just never knew of them. I did some digging on the net and found a few discussions of them on the other sites also. Anything has got to be better than the screen that came from the factory, hopefully my engine will enjoy the cleaner oil circulating through its innards. I have decided to order a kit from Motao, supposed to be here in about three weeks.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.


Dogfeathers
( l )===*--<::}
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,438
Likes: 49
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,438
Likes: 49
A useful thread, thanks. Can anyone recommend a UK supplier for the Charlie filter kit? 1972 TR6.

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 24
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 24
Pretty sure andy Gregory does one

http://www.tri-corengland.com/cgi-bin/sh000002.pl?WD=oil%20filter&PN=Oil%2din%2dFrame%2dSump%2dFilter%2dKit%2dRS004%2ehtml#SID=15

Confirm it fits

Last edited by AngloBike; 04/10/19 6:38 pm.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
Originally Posted by Dibnah
A useful thread, thanks. Can anyone recommend a UK supplier for the Charlie filter kit? 1972 TR6.


Fitting a Charlies filter to a '71-'72 650 could involve some modification because the engine feed pickup is a pipe that fits through a hole in the (gauze) filter and not an outlet from the filter plate.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]








Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/10/19 7:03 pm.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi LAB, Thanks for posting the illustrations.

Page 43 of the 1971 USA parts book at bottom of page states later '71 uses the later frame plate with oil feed. But when was the change?

So far as I know all '72 is the later parts. My friend back in '70s had an early '71 with this early frame/screen. It's the only one I've seen. Other friends had later '71 with the late style. The fellow with the early '71 Bonnie sold bike as it was a used lemon. He purchased '72 Tiger, which I worked on. It had the late plate.

Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,248
Likes: 132
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,248
Likes: 132
My A70L frame has the feed pipe out the side of the backbone.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan

Page 43 of the 1971 USA parts book at bottom of page states later '71 uses the later frame plate with oil feed.


In the original '71 listing, the plate and filter are apparently one-piece, F12826 as there's '1' F12829 plate gasket.

At the bottom of the page, 'Later models...Oil filter assembly' is F13642 but now '2' F12829 plate gaskets, so the filter and plate are separate but still considered to be one item but not the plate oil feed items.

https://www.classicbritishspares.co...0-oif-1971-1972-bsa-a65-t120-tr6-uk-made
(F1xxxx = 83-xxxx)
[Linked Image]

1972 parts book, 'Oil filter' (item 5) is also F13642 and additional item (5A), sump plate, F13185.

[Linked Image]


1973 (750) parts book filter is 83-4783 and sump plate 71-3316 (later, 71-7584).
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/triumph-t140-tr7-sump-oil-filter-1973-82
[Linked Image]
https://www.classicbritishspares.co...71-7584-71-3316-tr7-750-twins-bonneville
[Linked Image]


Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/11/19 7:57 pm.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi Dmadigan, What year & month is your A70?

How is you filter screen? Attached to bottom plate or separate?

I wonder what the differences between BSA & Triumph production change over was? What screen does the later 71 or 72 BSA use?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,135
Likes: 62
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
I wonder what the differences between BSA & Triumph production change over was? What screen does the later 71 or 72 BSA use?


1971 A65 BSA parts book:
[Linked Image]

58, 'Sump plate assembly', 83-3643
Also listed as 58, 'Oil filter assembly', 83-3642, (same as 'late 71 and 72 Triumph, F13642) although the drawing appears to show the 'early' one-piece filter assembly.
59, 83-2829, Gasket (1).


1972 book:
[Linked Image]

53, 'Sump plate assembly' 83-3815
59, 'Oil filter', 83-3642
60, 'Gasket', 83-2829 (1)

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/11/19 9:25 pm.
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,146
Likes: 210
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,146
Likes: 210
Be fairly simple to fabricate a "Charles" type filter from a early sump plate....


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,918
Likes: 107
Hi Hillbilly, Not as simple as it looks. Not just drilling & installing stud. The diameter of the rubber seals glued to end of filter are smaller than the inner diameter of round "flange" surface of sump plate. So an adaptor ring needs to be made. The adaptor is stepped to contain the rubber from moving sideways. There is a top adaptor plate also to be made.

I have lathe & alloy on hand to make the parts. What held me back is my center stand is only 3/16" from bottom of plate, so not much room for retaining nut. I wanted a little clearance to nut so nut would be down to 3/32. Probably would have held fine. Also the alloy is very thin at the point were the stud would be located so between that & room for the nut I decided on the Motao.

In the end of the day for my use I felt I made best choice with the knowledge I had at the time. I thought the Motao would be straight bolt on, but again, with my center stand it oil feed had to be facing rear to clear. I didn't want that so modified the Mota & got thinner drain plug. All in all, seems someone would redesign the Motao to actually fit more stands. The drain could be smaller & moved over slightly & the stand clearance groove made wider.

Unlike the factory plate, the Motao is very stiff. It's also perfectly flat. I think they tend to leak less than factory plate. I'm considering machining groove in Motao plate & using o-ring instead of gasket.

My frame base is not flat from new. Was dome shape by a good .010" & leaked from new. I've attempted to file it & work it with sanding board, but hard to do with bike assembled. Bike upside down would be fairly easy. Puzzling why not flat as it looks like factory surface milled the plate after welding to back bone. The frame where studs go is not very thick. Oddly like I said dome shaped so the center is higher than stud area. I'd think this would simply flex cover, to fit, but it likes to seep & I hate oil leaks.

I've checked very carefully. No cracks or leaks in backbone. It's for sure leaking by gasket. I don't glue gasket, I grease both sides to get easy removal. Of course sealant would work good but I don't want to have to scrape it off each time.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Page 2 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
British Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsBSA Unit SinglesPodtronicVintage MagazineBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2022 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5