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Hi All, Anybody have experience of how long the 3 row primary chain should last T140/TR7 bike?

Ridden rather gently, primary oil changed every 1000 miles.

At 24k miles has 1/8-3/32" elongation in 12". Manual says max is 1/4".

What is the experience of high mileage bike owners?

Does 3 row last longer than 2 row?
Don


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The rule of thumb I use is 1% elongation, which is gives 3 mm or ca 1/8". After that it wears faster in my experience. 1/4" sounds much, but if the book says so...
24k miles sounds about right for a duplex chain, I would expect at least 30k from a triplex, but these things seems to vary.
I think you're experiencing normal wear, but a better chain might last longer. I use an IWIS duplex solid pin chain in my Trident and in a friend's T140, but far too early for any conclusions yet, with only some 7000 km on it. I haven't had to adjust it yet, which is encouraging.

A solid pin chain is, as the name suggests, not a roller chain. As Andy The Chain man explained to me, a chain roller doesn't roll at all, it simply lifts in and out of the sprocket.
Watching the rear chain closely while turning the wheel I saw this is true. Mercedes use these as timing chains, and they last the life of the engine.

I had the single row primary breaking on me the day after I bought my first Triumph, a T110. It had me off with hundreds of people watching.
A painful experience on several levels, but it made me very conscious of chains!

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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi All, Anybody have experience of how long the 3 row primary chain should last T140/TR7 bike?

Ridden rather gently, primary oil changed every 1000 miles.

At 24k miles has 1/8-3/32" elongation in 12". Manual says max is 1/4".

What is the experience of high mileage bike owners?

Does 3 row last longer than 2 row?
Don


You run a filter and Mobil 1 oil and change it every 1000 miles with easy riding? That seems like overkill to me...Yes?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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The chain pins are pressed into the side plates. If there are no rollers around the pins then when the chain bends to wrap around the sprocket the pin rotates which means the pin is rotating in the gullet of the sprocket. With separate rollers the roller (presumably) remains stationary in the sprocket and the pin rotates in the roller. As the chain stretches the next pin will hit the leading face of the next tooth and slide down into the gullet. With a roller (presumably) the roller will rotate as the chain moves into position whereas with none the pin has to slide, wearing the sprocket and pin instead of the pin and roller.
Besides having a good damper and proper tensioner a roller chain needs a supply of oil directed at the rollers. Triumph's have a plate that captures oil flung off the clutch sprocket and plastic pipe which dribbles oil on to the bottom run. Ideally the oil should be a flow before the most highly loaded part of the chain which is before the engine sprocket, but there is no room above the chain in that area or pump to give it a real supply.

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The more powerful the motor the faster the wear, as a rule. Singles beat chains to death because of the huge power pulses. Twins are better, but fours have chains that last forever. My Norton with it's huge torque had it's first chain last for 35K miles before it started spitting rollers. Funny, it never needed adjustment. It just hit the wall, it seems.

I've always used Renold chains, but that's pretty iffy these days as you don't really know what your're getting when you buy one.

For my money, I'd set a mileage limit and just change the chain when it hits that, and maintain it best you can in the meantime.

You would think a three row chain, all other things being equal, would last longer than a two row. I don't know if this is how it works in the real world, though.

Cheers,
Bill


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HT - curious where you get your Reynold chain. I tried contacting a Reynold distributor to buy triplex masterless chain for the primary. They asked what the application was. When I said motorcycle they replied they do not supply chain for motorcycles. They will supply chains for fork lifts, conveyors, all sorts of potentially hazardous applications but not motorcycles. Maybe a liability lawyer got to them? I gave up on them, besides if you look at their specifications, their chain maximum load is usually less than other brands. Maybe they are being conservative or else the quality is not there anymore.

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Reynolds was a better chain when the competition made poor chains..Now there's many sources for chain as good as or better for less money...From my experience with my dual strand primary chain eating land speed racing Triumph,a made in Japan KCM chain is only 40 bucks and as good anything.for twice the money.. I believe they have T140 chains


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by DMadigan
do not supply chain for motorcycles. They will supply chains for fork lifts, conveyors, all sorts of potentially hazardous applications but not motorcycles. Maybe a liability lawyer got to them?

Uh-uh, it isn't the hazard, it's the speed the chain moves. "fork lifts, conveyors," etc. are all 'low-speed' applications; motorcycle drive chains - primary or secondary - are 'high speed' applications; that's what Renold (no "y") don't do now.

Hth.

Regards,

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+1 for the Mercedes Ivis chain - indestructible.

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The last Renold chain I got was NOS and very pricey. I've also heard of folks buying what they think is Renold chain only to find another brand in the box. What's that about? Yes, I understand that Renold says their chain is not made for motorcycles. Their engineer must have picked up a Machinery's handbook. There you will see that no chain produced is specified for this hostile environment.

So, all roller chains on motorcycles are under-spec'd for that type of use. It's a compromise done in engineering all the time. It's down to the owner to watch the wear on the chain and replace it before it fails.

A chain used in the manner it is intended will last until it rusts and falls off. Roller chains are intended to be run in a continuous oil bath. Anything other than that is outside its intended use. As far as the primary chain is concerned, a proper application of the chain would have it running on equal sized and very large sprockets at a specified maximum HP. There is a maximum rotation of each link spec'd but I don't remember what that is. Having it running on two small and unequal sized sprockets is a sin against engineering apparently.

So, we make do and pay attention to our chains or suffer the consequences.

I have no idea why I escaped having a chain punch through a primary case in my early days. I would take a rusty old chain, soak it in used motor oil until it was unfrozen and run blissfully unaware down the highway at 70mph. Lucky, I guess.

One of the major factors in buying chains has always been the fit. The Renold chain was a slimmer construction than, say, Tsubaki or Diamond(which were the big three back when) and they wouldn't rub on parts like chain guards and tires where the other brands gave problems. I had experiences with Renold chains in racing that outperformed the other two 10 to 1 at the minimum in the most hostile environment imaginable (Speedway bike primary chain)
So, I always stuck with them. I've been buying off brand chains lately and watching them closely.

Cheers,
Bill






Last edited by HawaiianTiger; 03/19/18 12:06 am.

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...few months ago I bought a triplex Renold from LP Williams with the exact numbers in the box that the Triumph parts Manual says.
I decided to buy Renold not the Japanese ones or Regina due to I went to their websites and did not have the exact pitch etc of the Renolds; so there are cheaper but not completely exact and I prefer to have the primary right.

What did not work are the Renold that they cut for whatever length you want. Those are ruined in couple thousands of kms.

I use DID for the big chains.

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Hi Dmadigan, Rabers San Jose, CA stocks Renold primary chain. I was there Friday & took my chain in to compare. My chain actually has little wear laid next to new chain. I misspoke. My chain is acutally 1/16-3/23 stretch.

The new Renold had "Renold" stamped on links I purposely looked. I comes in a Renold box. Not NOS is current production Renold. New 3 row comes with grease on it. It is the endless kind. I would use it for sure. Their price was not out of line. See their web site. Type part # into search box is easiest way on their site.

I wanted to buy new Renold 107 link rear chain. Rabers was out of stock. They normally have them. Will be in about 1-2 weeks. This chain comes with the cranked link installed from factory . My bike really needs cranked link. I don't like cranked, but have worked ok so far.

I've been using GL5 75-80w Mobil oil on rear chain. The Renold has held up well for me. I find the gear oil makes chain last longer than chain lube, but is very messy.

I've been involved with Renold chains for various bikes over the last few years. Has always had Renold chain in box.
Don


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Hi All, Regarding Mercedes timing chains, I was technician at Mercedes dealership 35 years. Retired about a year ago.

Visually & link size Mercedes timing chain looks like a Triumph chain. They use a plastic slipper for the chain tensioner similar to Triumph's too. No all models, but many.

The slipper type tensioner blade has a very long life.

We replaced hundreds upon hundreds of chains in that time. Depending on model they can be just awful. Wear so great timing on left bank a full tooth retarded.

We had our share of sprocket problems too. Did you know if you don't harden an idler or balance shaft sprocket it wears out fast?

Always trying to save energy and noise, they went from 2 row to 1 row chain on V-8. How did that work out? I put my daughter through collage converting to 2 row!

102 4cyl. had such problems we installed an oil jet pipe to squirt oil on it. That actually helped a lot. I'd never remove the oil tube for the primary chain.

Oddly 103 motor had a single row & held up fine.

Replacement chains used a common clip type master link, but several years ago they were replaced with a non clip master link we used a crimping tool that replicated a factory crimp exactly. This effectively made it an endless chain.

Now they went to "hy-vo" type chains also known as silent type. The sprockets look rather like a gear. They are tiny to save weight. Time will tell how they hold up...




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Hi Hawaiian Tiger, Mileage limit. What mileage?

I'm serious. What's your mileage when you change yours?
Don


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Hi Hillbilly, It probably is overkill.

What's your thoughts on when is appropriate?

My hope is to prolong engine life. However I know if oil is still good, changing it doesn't actually prolong life.
Don


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Depends on the bike and the chain. I've heard a lot of positive comments on the Jiwis, or Iwis chain (I'm assuming these are the same thing) and that it fits our bikes without interference problems.

I haven't tried one yet, but I would estimate that the life of these would be at least 20k miles if reports are true. Give or take depending on maintenance and abuse. Also, running on worn clutch baskets will dramatically shorten chain life.

So, starting from scratch with new basket, new chain and a sympathetic owner...20K miles seems reasonable to me. I've yet to see a worn out engine sprocket. This is dual row chain. Triple row....30K miles seems reasonable.

I know there are specifications for determining chain wear. I haven't seen one I can put to good use yet. It's the measurement thing. It all seems beyond me to work out....

However, I've been able to asses chain wear in another way and that is lateral movement of the chain. Laid on the bench and moved from side to side. Any significant movement would have me ordering a new chain. A third way is to try to lift a link from the middle of the clutch basket. If you can see air, there is wear.

Cheers,
Bill



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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan

We replaced hundreds upon hundreds of chains in that time. Depending on model they can be just awful. Wear so great timing on left bank a full tooth retarded.


Thanks for sharing this information. Were these IWIS brand chains?
Here I was, thinking "if it's good enough for Mercedes..."

I'll be keeping a close eye on my IWIS Duplex primary chain!

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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Hillbilly, It probably is overkill.

What's your thoughts on when is appropriate?

My hope is to prolong engine life. However I know if oil is still good, changing it doesn't actually prolong life.
Don


I would say at least 2000 miles if your warmer climate and the bike is used for longer rides..You seem to enjoy small details, send an oil sample into Blackstone of another lab for testing........... The Japanese use HyVo or Morse chains on their cam drives and also bikes that use a primary chain like Honda 750's....They are also use in near every US 4x4 transfer case and OHV timing chains... I have no actual experience if they last longer than a roller in the same type service..
I have heard about M/B timing chain wear..Not a good advertisement for German engineering or Iwis chains if it's not done long intervals... grin
Harley Sportsters use a #35 three row primary chain nearly identical to Triumph T140 and T150 (Triumph has .050 larger rollers)...Late model Sportsters have about 60 HP and weight 550 pounds..Modified street Sportsters can make 100 plus HP... and primary chains are not too much of a problem...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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The Iwis big pin version of the Merc chain as sold by Andy the chainman has been used in duplex endless form on 1000cc Laverda Triples successfully for a good few years, the standard chain was triplex. If mercs have an issue with roller chains then in trying to sort it out Iwis have developed a chain that exceeds our requirements without having to re-engineer to HyVo. Once you have one in your hand to compare to the normal chain you can see why it is better.

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The Hy vo chains currently being used as timing chains in motor cars, Merc or otherwise are constantly wearing out. We replace them quite often on late model Ford, Holden, Audi, BMW, Mitsubishi, Mazda....... you get the idea. The biggest issue seems to be with poor quality oil and irregular intervals, combine this with a mechanic who puts the bung in while the oil is still draining to save time and make a little extra charging for more oil than he uses and you have problems.

Rod


And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

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Hi,

Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
I understand that Renold says their chain is not made for motorcycles. Their engineer must have picked up a Machinery's handbook.

Mmmm ... yes and no. One requirement of 'high speed' roller chain is it doesn't have split rollers; otoh, split rollers are ok on 'low speed' chain. Many years ago, when I didn't know that, I was sold a split-roller replacement chain for my first T160; luckily the damage was minimal (rear sprocket and chain guard) when it broke ...

Reason I stopped using certainly Renold final-drive chain decades ago was the last couple were shagged inside 5,000 miles. frown At the time, I lived not far from a business selling Japanese motorcycle parts direct from the original suppliers of the parts to the motorcycle makers; I just bought chains by the likes of DID, Tsubaki, etc. from there and shortened them as required; nowadays, there are any number of businesses in GB - online and bricks-'n'-mortar - selling at least the various makes of Japanese motorcycle chain.

Originally Posted by reverb
I decided to buy Renold not the Japanese ones or Regina due to I went to their websites and did not have the exact pitch etc of the Renolds; so there are cheaper but not completely exact

confused Something lost in translation? Roller chains are either the same "pitch" (and internal width and roller diameter) or they are a different "pitch" or internal width or roller diameter. There is not (should not be) any difference between the pitch, internal width and roller diameter of the same chain (for example, 5/8" x 3/8" or 530 final-drive chain) whether in Imperial or metric units.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

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I believe the main reason for using Hyvo is they are quieter and cheaper to manufacture compared to roller chains...US OHV V-8's most all used a stamped link Hyvo type chain for near 70 years...Typically they last 100K miles with the usual indifferent oil changes by most owners. Most guys building a performance V8 uses a #35 twin row roller timing chain because they arguably stand up better to hard use......If you see a video of a OHV V-8 timing chain that have no guides or tensioner driving a camshaft with 450 psi valve springs ...whipping around at 7000 rpm... you would never believe they could survive 5 minutes of use..

I see old photos of Triumph 500 GP racers with open primary drives...I would think the chain lubrication is not the best and why didn't the chain get overheated and kinked? My double engine Triumph primary uses 428 dual row Harley type chains and a few runs down the 1-1/2 mile track gets the non oil bath chain hotter than it needs to be ..Tom (Koncrete Kid) mentioned some chain drive open primarys using water cooling to extend chain life at Bonneville.You know, no one wants oil on a racing track surface..This would be when a full oil tight enclosure is not practical...
Modern open class dirt bikes can have 60 hp...Drive chains were always an issue no matter what brand...O rings chains have really increased life in dirty conditions... Think about the desert racing in the 50-60's, hundreds of Triumph 650 "Sleds" racing through sand and dust for hours at near 100 MPH at times...That gotta be tough on the chains..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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My Merc triplex cam chain failed after~ 300,000 miles.( in a merc diesel engine).


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...hello Stuart; not the translation but not so clearly from my side trying to use only one word to describe more stuff.

May be are exactly the same but I saw a variation in the numbers so I decided to use the original equipment.

http://finerpt.com/site/DefaultSite...%20Chain/KCM13%20BS%20Roller%20Chain.pdf

http://victorylibrary.com/brit/chain-c.htm

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3/8/' pitch chains are not the same unless they are manufactured to the same standard. ANSI 35-3 chain has 5.08mm rollers and European Standard (BS) have 6.35mm rollers. The width between roller centres is 10.13mm on the ANSI and 10.24mm on the BS. Inside width between plates is 4.68mm on the ANSI and 5.72mm on the BS. So the two 3/8" pitch chains will not interchange. This is from the Renold (without the "y" literature).
An advantage of Hyvo chain is that the pitch line does not change as the chain stretches. It is quieter because it does not have the chordal motion (being lifted up as the roller goes over the top and the next roller hitting the gullet of the next tooth before being lifted itself. There are more link plates between pitches than a roller chain of the same width.
One reason it is not widely used on motorcycle primaries is that the tooth form is proprietary. The sprockets have to be cut by a licensed shop. Cutters are not available in machine tool stores.

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