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Originally Posted by Jac0b561
I am going to stay with the leaf spring though. I think that takes away from the originality of the bike if you convert it to something else. I might as well give it updated modern lights and maybe a coolant system then (joking).


This is not an "upgrade" in the sense to which you make reference, my friend. This is de-BSAing your Triumph so it will shift correctly like a Triumph should. It's your bike and you are certainly free to do as you wish, but the leaf spring was "bad boogie" from the get go. It was only used 2 years, the remainder of the 80 year history used a plunger and spring. I'm merely suggesting you go with the odds.

Originally Posted by Jac0b561
Until I get it to shift....


...poorly.

:bigt


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I could go with the Christmas special deal, no deposit, pay shipping costs only, plus any damage which has never been an issue. Heck, it went to the UK and a few domestic stops and came home with nary a scratch. Could be there by Friday....


Michael

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Back again. I've tried a lot now. haha I have a question about that outer cover. How tight should the T407 Guide plate be? I've been indexing and indexing and indexing but it seems as though I might not have installed that guide plate properly. I can't seem to find anything on properly installing the guide plate properly.

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...hello; just tight it by hand (with a socket) and just that man. That s not the problem to indexing the box. In fact indexing is just an easy thing that it DO NOT need any special treating name like "indexing". Main problem is the confusion that the manuals provide, then if you check all the threads about indexing all the guys that really know this stuff seems that are in the need of a pedagogic way to explain it; lots of words to explain an easy task so for the rookie is even more confusion.
So I can help if you explain a bit more what you are doing trying to indexing there.

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Originally Posted by reverb
...hello; just tight it by hand (with a socket) and just that man. That s not the problem to indexing the box. In fact indexing is just an easy thing that it DO NOT need any special treating name like "indexing". Main problem is the confusion that the manuals provide, then if you check all the threads about indexing all the guys that really know this stuff seems that are in the need of a pedagogic way to explain it; lots of words to explain an easy task so for the rookie is even more confusion.
So I can help if you explain a bit more what you are doing trying to indexing there.


I figured. But do I need to tighten it down all the way so the guide plate cannot move anymore? Even hand tight without cranking down on it. Does there need to be some kind of movement at all with that piece? I have a feeling I had it too loose where it would always say it was out of index. Then I tried it more tightened down and realized I could actually shift up, but not down. So I thought there might be some sort of sweet spot with that guide plate. Right now I have my gearbox indexed so I can shift up an infinite amount of times....ugh. lol It was doing that before....is it supposed to be shifting continually past 5 forever? Or is it supposed to stop at 5?

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This reminds me of when my mate sold a 68 Bonnie to a young man with no experience with motorcycles before. The buyer trailered it home and soon after he came home with it he called and said he couldn't get the box to shift. My mate went through every possible failure mode with the guy, to no avail.

UNTIL it dawned on him that the guy was dry-shifting the bloody thing in the garage without the engine running or even turning the rear wheel over...

Sorry to digress, that's clearly not the case here.

But listen to the grown-ups, get rid of the leaf spring. My current favorite is a ball tip plunger with a reduced length spring. The 5 speed doesn't rely on the plunger to keep it in gear as much as the 4 speeder, so cutting off 5/16" or 3/8" has worked for me. Very smooth shifting. Easy indexing WITHOUT the tool.

Plunger: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/gk24sailor/m.html?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEFSXS%3AMESOI&_trksid=p2053788.m1543.l2654

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Gotcha. Thanks smile Anyone else?

Last edited by Jac0b561; 08/08/17 3:52 pm.
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Originally Posted by reverb
...hello; just tight it by hand (with a socket) and just that man. That s not the problem to indexing the box. In fact indexing is just an easy thing that it DO NOT need any special treating name like "indexing". Main problem is the confusion that the manuals provide, then if you check all the threads about indexing all the guys that really know this stuff seems that are in the need of a pedagogic way to explain it; lots of words to explain an easy task so for the rookie is even more confusion.
So I can help if you explain a bit more what you are doing trying to indexing there.


Do I need to have the brake on while doing this? Or be turning the wheel constantly? I am finding quick ways of doing this and then I am finding overly complicating ways of doing this. Weird...all I need is the step by step process. None of these lectures of "I thought it was too hard with all my years of experience and I still couldn't do it. So I just say drill, tap it and plunge it." kind of people. Thanks no thanks. It surprises me that people can't just give advice and help people who are learning without sounding like the guy learning needs to know all this stuff already. It's funny how in that jockeyjournal post below I posted the second comment by a guy named "Tattoo" says the same thing as me here "Reading every post on here that asked a question about indexing that really didn't tell you enough other than you should up grade.".

With maybe a few weeks of taking the tranny apart on my own with no one helping. I was able to take apart the transmission and reassemble it. Now I am just at the indexing part. And NO people geez! I am NOT going to do an upgrade.

These are everything I've been following. On top of lunmad's diy on youtube.

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74342

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqrCNTk_iBA

http://www.britbike.com/ubb/bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=006746;p=0

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Originally Posted by Jac0b561
Do I need to have the brake on while doing this? Or be turning the wheel constantly? I am finding quick ways of doing this and then I am finding overly complicating ways of doing this. Weird...all I need is the step by step process. None of these lectures of "I thought it was too hard with all my years of experience and I still couldn't do it. So I just say drill, tap it and plunge it." kind of people. Thanks no thanks. It surprises me that people can't just give advice and help people who are learning without sounding like the guy learning needs to know all this stuff already.


Just an observation, brother, but you seem to be using several paragraphs to complain about people using too many words and veering way off subject ! laughing Understandable based on the varied responses, but that's the internet these days.

Your last question seems to refer backwards to so many previous posts that the actual question is now lost. At least to me. Please give us your question in one concise sentence, and I'll do my best to reply in kind.

If you'll review this thread, you'll see there are 3 types of people responding: the ones with fond gearbox memories, idiots with wild guesses, and those trying to sincerely help you. You needn't respond to anyone that's not leading the conversation where you want it to go.

:bigt


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...hello, you can index that "hand" in whatever notch if you have the camplate in that right notch previously. Its easier due to have a "physical" reference in 1st and top gear. Even easier in the later models with the N switch. In your case with those "leaf springs" is somewhat more difficult and I do not know if you can indexing in all the notches (due to space etc)
So put the camplate in the top gear notch (that I think could be good for those leaf springs) The real problem is the leaf springs rotating more that you want the camplate when you are locating the cover there. That seems to me the only problem. Then looks (but I am not sure) like the other boxes indexing.
This way (in top gear) do you have the stop reference to help you locate those LS knowing in which gear you are actually.
I mean, again, in the other notches when you engage the L springs the possibility to rotate the camplate and get "out" of the desired gear (notch) that you wanted is high so is easier in my opinion to do it in one that have some kind of reference (like in top gear)

-Then when you are at about 1/4 or so just introduce that "hand" touching the top part of the cover you will see that you need to move it a bit (may be 1/8 max) to really engage it properly.

-Do you know what notch is top gear? If not, is the one "besides" one of those "stops" (kind of ears) in the camplate. You will see 2 of these. If you rebuilt the gbox in N (notch) the closer notch is First gear then the other "stop", so if you start to count the notches to the other side that last one before the other "stop" is the top gear notch.

--
Hope you can understand.


--If for a moment you thought about change for a plunger type I think that is easier to do the conversion if the engine is out of the frame; seems a bit difficult (but possible) to do it installed.

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Originally Posted by reverb
..

--If for a moment you thought about change for a plunger type I think that is easier to do the conversion if the engine is out of the frame; seems a bit difficult (but possible) to do it installed.


I did my 72 in frame. Some did also but loosened/removed some motor mounts so unit could be rotated a bit to gain clearance.


Michael

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Originally Posted by reverb
...hello, you can index that "hand" in whatever notch if you have the camplate in that right notch previously. Its easier due to have a "physical" reference in 1st and top gear. Even easier in the later models with the N switch. In your case with those "leaf springs" is somewhat more difficult and I do not know if you can indexing in all the notches (due to space etc)
So put the camplate in the top gear notch (that I think could be good for those leaf springs) The real problem is the leaf springs rotating more that you want the camplate when you are locating the cover there. That seems to me the only problem. Then looks (but I am not sure) like the other boxes indexing.
This way (in top gear) do you have the stop reference to help you locate those LS knowing in which gear you are actually.
I mean, again, in the other notches when you engage the L springs the possibility to rotate the camplate and get "out" of the desired gear (notch) that you wanted is high so is easier in my opinion to do it in one that have some kind of reference (like in top gear)

-Then when you are at about 1/4 or so just introduce that "hand" touching the top part of the cover you will see that you need to move it a bit (may be 1/8 max) to really engage it properly.

-Do you know what notch is top gear? If not, is the one "besides" one of those "stops" (kind of ears) in the camplate. You will see 2 of these. If you rebuilt the gbox in N (notch) the closer notch is First gear then the other "stop", so if you start to count the notches to the other side that last one before the other "stop" is the top gear notch.

--
Hope you can understand.


--If for a moment you thought about change for a plunger type I think that is easier to do the conversion if the engine is out of the frame; seems a bit difficult (but possible) to do it installed.

According to here.

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74342

It pretty much rotates itself into first gear when the spring gets shoved under the camplate. I can confirm that much. I even made sure that the first gear itself would stay engaged while shoving the inner cover on the rest of the way. I am not totally sure on any of these N switches and L springs that you mentioned. I might just need to stick with simpler terms for right now lol

My question is simply do I need to rotate the rear wheel constantly while shifting to see if it is truly engaged? Or do I need to apply the rear brake for this same operation? Or can I get away with just pulling the inner cover off and on moving it slightly up and down engaging the teeth in different spots until it clicks in the right spot?

I noticed I had the guide plate extremely loose. Because the old one was when I disassembled it. Which is why I'm also back here asking about that thinking maybe that guide plate needed to be tightened to the right spot in order to engage the gear selector. I was getting different results with it (guide plate) being loose and really tightened. I think from what I read and watched videos on now is pretty much tighten it down all the way just by hand and not crank down on it. Also maybe even giving it a quarter turn backwards from what one person explained before I believe.

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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Originally Posted by Jac0b561
Do I need to have the brake on while doing this? Or be turning the wheel constantly? I am finding quick ways of doing this and then I am finding overly complicating ways of doing this. Weird...all I need is the step by step process. None of these lectures of "I thought it was too hard with all my years of experience and I still couldn't do it. So I just say drill, tap it and plunge it." kind of people. Thanks no thanks. It surprises me that people can't just give advice and help people who are learning without sounding like the guy learning needs to know all this stuff already.


Just an observation, brother, but you seem to be using several paragraphs to complain about people using too many words and veering way off subject ! laughing Understandable based on the varied responses, but that's the internet these days.

Your last question seems to refer backwards to so many previous posts that the actual question is now lost. At least to me. Please give us your question in one concise sentence, and I'll do my best to reply in kind.

If you'll review this thread, you'll see there are 3 types of people responding: the ones with fond gearbox memories, idiots with wild guesses, and those trying to sincerely help you. You needn't respond to anyone that's not leading the conversation where you want it to go.

:bigt


Yah rants over. lol

I was on a few different forums where I asked about this and other motorcycle things. As I have a chopper I am also making from complete scratch. Plan on using a 67 TR6R engine for it someone just had sitting out in his yard for years. That will have the plunger method instead, as it already is capable of using it especially for that year. I should be used to all of the random comments from people saying stuff like "How do you not already know everything motorcycle wise now bruh?! lol"

Despite the negative stuff from random people I am truly learning a lot, by asking a lot questions that may seem "simple" or even "dumb" to the more knowledgeable individual on this subject.

My last post before this has my questions.

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...man, if you have the inner cover fitted you need to remove it, if not is like playing Russian roulette.
Then proceed as mentioned and just that.
LS= leaf spring
N switch= neutral switch (in later T140 models)

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Originally Posted by reverb
...man, if you have the inner cover fitted you need to remove it, if not is like playing Russian roulette.
Then proceed as mentioned and just that.
LS= leaf spring
N switch= neutral switch (in later T140 models)


I'm working on a T120. And how would I index it without the inner cover being on? Just go and read this and you'll see what I'm talking about how I've been going about it.

http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74342

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There's no rotation of the shifter cam in first gear. That's why 1st gear was chosen to use with the "5-speed tool". The tool holds the quadrant stationary, and the shifter cam is being held stationary by the fact that it can't go anywhere from 1st while the spring is pushing on it.

If you want to check the g/b timing, then you roll the rear wheel with your left hand while you yank on the g/s lever with the right. That's the only wheel turning that's needed.


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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
There's no rotation of the shifter cam in first gear. That's why 1st gear was chosen to use with the "5-speed tool". The tool holds the quadrant stationary, and the shifter cam is being held stationary by the fact that it can't go anywhere from 1st while the spring is pushing on it.

If you want to check the g/b timing, then you roll the rear wheel with your left hand while you yank on the g/s lever with the right. That's the only wheel turning that's needed.


Gotcha. Should I just keep pulling the inner cover out and pushing it back in to try to catch that sweet spot then?

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...the photo in that post do not work anymore due to the photobucket crappyness.
I know that you are working on a T120 man, I put that N etc stuff because you asked.

-Do what I mentioned and just that; no more problems.

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Sometimes I get everything lined up on the first try. Sometimes I'm still trying after a hundred tries. It's all Voodoo, smoke and mirrors and luck. It is the greatest test of patience.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
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Assemble the 5 speed box in 5th gear.

Rotate the cam plate (facing from the back of the motorcycle) counter clockwise just a bit toward 4th gear position so the 5th gear cam plate notch will be at the same level as the front edge of the spring will be as you are offering the inner cover.

In this position the "V" portion of the tip of the spring will engage 5th gear notch, and as you slide the inner cover in, it will rotate the cam plate into 5th.

You are half way there!!!

So here is where you have to be able to "walk and chew gum."

In 5th the gear, the top tooth of shifting quadrant (that's the thing that rocks in the inner cover) will need to be almost to the top of the gearbox. In fact as you offer the inner cover you hold your thumb on the outside portion of the quadrant and push it down. This will cause the top tooth to slide along the roof of the transmission casting. In fact if you were to continue sliding the inner cover on the quadrant and cam plate will engage each other — remember I said almost, BUT in fact you are one tooth off having the gear box timed.

At this point you are almost done. :bigt

All you need to do is draw back the inner cover while holding the quadrant with your thumb against the top of the gearbox. While you are drawing the inner cover back you want to find the point where the cam plate and quadrant teeth just come apart. You do this by taking some of the thumb pressure from the quadrant letting it "fall" of its own weight. Fall, but only a littel - one tooth to be exact. You do this until the cam plate and quadrant teeth just clear each other. Then all you have to do is drop the quadrant one tooth (we are talking abut the relations ship of the quadrant and cam plate teeth here) push the inner cover home, tidy up the outer cover fixings and go get a beer. beerchug

Job, well done! clap

With any practice you will be able to do this blind folded and impress your "best friend" being it either the cat or dog. facepalm

The plate that retains the outer cover plungers goes with the two beveled surfaces facing the plungers.

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Originally Posted by Buckshot1
Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Excerpt from my 2010 GABMA tech article on the 'Leaf Spring Conversion', which is now missing....

To make your reservation in the USA, write Mike a letter. Please include your name, address
and a money order for $140. This includes $40 for using the kit and $100 for the fully
refundable deposit. Mike's address is:

Mike Horton
PO Box 310
Diamond Springs, CA 95619

Mike will send you the kit, the instructions and his phone number in case you have questions.
Added: The response to this tool has been so overwhelming that a new second tool is now
available in the UK and Europe by contacting:

Kelvin Tonkin
23 Agar Road
Newquay, Cornwall TR7 2EW
UK
User name “kellyt” on BritBike.Com and RAT Forum

This is what happens when you put people who think wiping your seat down with ArmourAll is "working on your bike" in charge of the club web site.

mad




Some new/updated info regarding the plunger mod kit: I decided to waive the rental fee. A donation to the forum would be cool. Latest cost of fat rate box +insurance is about $17, I think. I need to get that + $100 deposit which everyone has had refunded in full.

Send me a PM unless you like gambling on when I might go to the post office to pick up mail. VERY irregular, though I try to get there at least once a month. Include your email address in PM so I can send the doc file with what you'll need to know.

Forget Kelvin if in UK. Can't be contacted.


Hi Mike,
Trying to send you a PM but your inbox is full. I'm very interested in renting your kit, I just want to verify the rental is still up and running.

Thanks: Mike


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Just cleaned out some PMs. Try again or email 'ebodycuda' which is a yahoo address.


Michael

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Originally Posted by Buckshot1
Just cleaned out some PMs. Try again or email 'ebodycuda' which is a yahoo address.


Thanks Michael,
Email sent.

: Mike


"An ill-assorted collection of poorly-matching parts, forming a distressing whole."
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