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I have a 12v coil with 1 and 15 in place of good old + and -
does anyone know which is which on these?
TIA
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Dennis B


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Hi Dennis,

Originally Posted by Dennis B
12v coil with 1 and 15 in place of good old + and -

SIBA coil? In any event, they're German DIN standard - 1 is -ve and 15 is +ve.

Hth.

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Thanks Stuart,
just what I needed
not sure of the brand, but I think it is German
looks near new so I thought I would test it
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Dennis B


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Easy way to remember.... Terminal 1 goes to the distributor (points), which grounds the system. Since most German vehicles are Neg Gnd, 1 is therefore negative.


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Easier— What does a one look like? What does the symbol for negative look like?
John

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what was wrong with + and - ?


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Too obvious for Bosch wink

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it's got to be a german thing.

i used to deliver steel to a german-owned warehouse in chicago. an immense place-- 60-foot high racks of bar, angle, tube, and strap, all shapes and sizes, stored lengthwise in little cubbyholes, hole after hole, rack after rack.

the unloaders would crane the steel off my truck onto a table, and then punch a series of buttons to tell the computer where to pick up the steel, where in the warehouse to take it, and which cubbyhole to shove it into. then the automatic overhead crane would loom into view and take it away.

as i remember, the keypad was about fifteen buttons across and a dozen buttons high. all the buttons were labelled with individual and unique icons to tell the operator which button told what to the computer. but because there were so many functions, the icons were incomprehensible-- squiggles, squares, lightning bolts, zigs, zags, stars, and triangles. the symbols were all unique, but there was no ergonomic symbolism visible anywhere. couldn't tell what the buttons did.

attached to the side the keypad was a manufacturer-supplied key to the buttons in english, with words to tell the operator what crane actions corresponded to what symbol, so he could go to the keypad and punch the correct buttons.

by doing it this way, the germans had to provide each destination country with two sets of instructions-- one universal keypad with the heiroglyphics, and then a matching language-coded sign to interpret the symbols.

nobody in germany ever thought to just put the language-codes (which they had to make up anyway for each country) on the buttons themselves, and then to just skip the icons.


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Our company was bought by a German company, what we though was going to go well quickly became a disaster.

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As a automotive technician I've had the pleasure(or lack of) of working on alot of makes of cars and over the years I have come to a few conclusions. One of them is that German engineers aren't exactly known for elegant solutions to problems, they get the job done but typically done in the most complicated manner. Kind of a shame as the needless complication has a huge negative effect on a relaibility on a otherwise well built product


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Hi Kev,

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
what was wrong with + and - ?

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
it's got to be a german thing.

Doesn't really matter on bikes, but which system - colour-coded wire insulation or numbered terminals - is more easily-expandable? Wiring harness for, say, a modern S-class Merc done with colour-code insulation?

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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Easy way to remember.... Terminal 1 goes to the distributor (points), which grounds the system. Since most German vehicles are Neg Gnd, 1 is therefore negative.


Well John, it's easy for me !! I started my career on VW Beetles in the early 60's. Back then Terminal #1 was connected to a short wire dangling between the coil and the distributor body. It couldn't have been 6 inches long. I always supposed the Germans started the numbering with either the shortest or most important wire !


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thats a good point, stuart. but if a conventional coil is used, there will be only two terminals, and only two ways to hook it up.i dont see an advantage to an intelligent technician in using a numbered system for that component.

batteries also have only two posts. how does mercedes benz identify battery terminals?


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Hi Kev,

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
if a conventional coil is used, there will be only two terminals, and only two ways to hook it up.i dont see an advantage to an intelligent technician in using a numbered system for that component.

Mmmm ... but terminal numbers aren't restricted to ignition coils. Dunno about the US but I've been using, say, numbered relay terminals as long as I've been installing relays, since the early 1980's; even Lucas coded relay terminals on the 6RA relays it supplied to Triumph and BSA from '69 for twin horns. One of the potential advantages of something like the DIN system is, if every component has numbered terminals, you shouldn't end up with, say, coil +ve (#15) connected to relay high input (#30). smile

Talking of relays, there are two different layouts of terminals on the common 4-terminal on/off 'cube' relay, with the positions of terminals #30 and #86 transposed. As #86 is one of the switching terminals while #30 is the switched input, and the terminals are all standard 1/4"-wide male spades in the same positions, at best one type of relay won't work in a socket wired for the other? However, if you have terminal numbers on socket and relay, it's easy to check that the new relay you're about to install has the desired terminal layout? smile

Originally Posted by kevin roberts
batteries also have only two posts. how does mercedes benz identify battery terminals?

Depends on the battery maker. I've never seen one with just numbers by the terminals, but I didn't start using German batteries 'til the mid-1980's; ime certainly then, they could have numbers and + and - beside the terminals.

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i suppose that would work if you're encountering machines of different kinds on a daily basis, like a general-purpose tech would. i always stick a VOM against a relay (or a switch) and work out what is which from first principles. i've always been ignorant of markings systems.

in the end, it's just a code, and whatever people are familiar with is what ought to be maintained. i'm familiar with + and -, but if standardized numbers make sense to people then that is what they should stick with.


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Standards are wonderful things, that's why there are so many different ones. laughing


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Industrial relays and switches are also number coded 11=common, 13 =N/O,14=N/C, A1 and A2 = coil. For relays with more contacts they are then continued 21/23/24, 31/33/34, etc
I remember car coils being labelled CB (contact breaker) and SW (switch) but no indication if positive or negative earth


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Harley dual output coils have no markings on the primary terminals...In the mid 70's I had a 72 Opel 1900 with the numbered markings on the electrical system....Construction electricians use use colors to identify phasing and grounding, but numbers are used on control wires..Might be hundreds of wires in a power plant control panel all with stick on numbers/letters...I rewired bikes and hots rods in one or two colors...Not a big deal because most home mechanics, can't figure out the few wires on a vintage Brit bike despite them being different colors.. grin....


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Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Harley dual output coils have no markings on the primary terminals...

... which probably reflects that, with ignition coils, doesn't really make any difference which way you connect 'em, they still produce an HT spark? wink

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Hook a coil backwards and it will show up on an asilascop sp? Used to use one years ago. They said it lowered the output. Not sure it did though.

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Dual output coils are connected differently internally.
A single output coil has the primary and secondary windings both connected to the terminal that the points connect to. The primary circuit is from the battery, through the coil primary, through the points to earth and back to the battery. The secondary circuit is from the secondary winding, across the spark plug to earth and into the condensor, the condensor then connects to the coil.
In a twin output coil the primary and secondary windings are completely separate. The primary circuit is from the battery, through the coil primary, through the points to earth and back to the battery. The secondary circuit is from the coil secondary winding across a plug, through the head, across the other plug and then return to the other end of the secondary winding.
With a dual output coil it does not matter which way the primary terminals are connected or which HT lead goes to which plug


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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
Dual output coils are connected differently internally.
A single output coil has the primary and secondary windings both connected to the terminal that the points connect to. The primary circuit is from the battery, through the coil primary, through the points to earth and back to the battery. The secondary circuit is from the secondary winding, across the spark plug to earth and into the condensor, the condensor then connects to the coil.
In a twin output coil the primary and secondary windings are completely separate. The primary circuit is from the battery, through the coil primary, through the points to earth and back to the battery. The secondary circuit is from the coil secondary winding across a plug, through the head, across the other plug and then return to the other end of the secondary winding.
With a dual output coil it does not matter which way the primary terminals are connected or which HT lead goes to which plug


The dual output coils from Pazon are marked + and -. The 3-5 ohm Pazon coils appear to me as repackaged Japanese multi cylinder coils...However, with reference to what Andy says above I have no idea if it matters and terminals might be identified just make sure individual wires don't get mixed up.


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In the UK, colour coding for wiring for cars was standardised in the early 1960s under "BS-AU7 Colour Code for Vehicle Wiring", although TVR continued to make wiring harnesses with black cables and collars into the late 1970s.

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Originally Posted by kevin roberts
it's got to be a german thing.

I'd rather have the numbers than a poorly translated manual with some unknown element called a "DC Consent."
I kid you not, that term is in the schematic of a factory Yamaha wiring diagram from the 80's. I could only guess that it's a relay, but a 30 and an 87 terminal would remove all doubt.


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Not totally sure how I got here....
However I find this whole topic very funny. Typical marking of a coil as to german 1 or 15 or others as +/- to me seems a bit strange, specifically ignorant.
on coils there is the low side of the primary as the grounded side through the points. Ground symbol (upside down christmas tree) and "E" for coil drive voltage located at the intermediate primary coil attachment to the HV part of the coil.

So up side down christmas tree is the same and universally correct for + OR - ground systems as coils are unaware and otherwise not responsive to polarity. These symbols should identify the functioal LOCATION within the coil to really identify the true characteristic.

E

ground.jpg

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