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After much time spent in research, I've come up short on how to correct this problem. Here are the symptoms: - Wet, fouled black spark plug. Plug is an NGK B6HS - Slight puff of black smoke when throttle is applied from idle; no smoke upon startup, and idle is smooth after warm-up with spark slightly retarded. - Exhaust note is loud, with hesitation, when throttle is applied. Rather than a increasing rumble, it more resembles a snare drum; it's sharp, snapping and resistant. A few other details: Starting is easy; one or two kicks without any choke. I have a foam air filter fitted over the carburetor. Carburetor is an AMAL 376/40 Main jet: 260 Needle jet: 106 Pilot jet: 25 I'm really just at a loss as to whether this can be corrected with different jetting or if I'd be better off with a whole new carburetor. According to my research, this isn't even the stock carburetor, but the jetting seems correct otherwise. I haven't had any previous experience with Amals and my understanding is that they have a mind of their own sometimes. Any suggestions are appreciated. I haven't taken it out on the street for fear that this is a major problem. I've driven it around my property at less than 10mph and it seems fine with it, but any more than the slightest, slowest application of throttle yields the third symptom. Also, strangely, a slight application of the choke when throttling up seems to make this symptom less apparent, but only with the spark retarded also. With the spark fully advanced, the engine will run fine for a moment, then cut out and spit a cloud of grey smoke from the carburetor.
SpencerAZ
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A 376 on a B33 should be 1 1/16" bore.
No air filter, main jet 260, needle jet .1065, needle position 3. Pilot jet 25
With air filter - 210 main jet, the rest the same.
Coming off idle, if the pilot jet is correct, check float level and slide cut away.check wear on the needle, verify needle is correct length for a 376 carbie.
Modern fuels do affect jetting from 1950's specs, but the change is incremental, not drastic.
Your bike should have a 289, which is a seperate float bowl carbie. But the 376 was used on later B33's
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A 376 on a B33 should be 1 1/16" bore.
No air filter, main jet 260, needle jet .1065, needle position 3. Pilot jet 25
With air filter - 210 main jet, the rest the same.
Coming off idle, if the pilot jet is correct, check float level and slide cut away.check wear on the needle, verify needle is correct length for a 376 carbie.
Modern fuels do affect jetting from 1950's specs, but the change is incremental, not drastic.
Your bike should have a 289, which is a seperate float bowl carbie. But the 376 was used on later B33's Forgive my ignorance, but is my current 106 needle jet the same as ".1065"? I searched the latter and couldn't find any results (unless I'm just looking in the wrong place)
SpencerAZ
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A 376 on a B33 should be 1 1/16" bore.
No air filter, main jet 260, needle jet .1065, needle position 3. Pilot jet 25
With air filter - 210 main jet, the rest the same.
Coming off idle, if the pilot jet is correct, check float level and slide cut away.check wear on the needle, verify needle is correct length for a 376 carbie.
Modern fuels do affect jetting from 1950's specs, but the change is incremental, not drastic.
Your bike should have a 289, which is a seperate float bowl carbie. But the 376 was used on later B33's Forgive my ignorance, but is my current 106 needle jet the same as ".1065"? I searched the latter and couldn't find any results (unless I'm just looking in the wrong place) AMAL's site lists new 376/40s shipping with 106s for needle jets because the 1065 is no longer made, so it looks like I'm good. Lets hope the 210 main does the trick.
SpencerAZ
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What throttle slide cutaway do you have? The book say 3.5
Also is the carb in good condition with little wear?
The .106 needle jet will be slightly leaner than the .1065 and from what you describe isn't therefore the source of your problem.
It might also be useful to take the bike for a run so you get up to normal road speeds and then see how things go.
BSA: '71 B175; '68 B25; '71 A65; '71 A75 Triumph: '87 T140; '72 T150v
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Doh, I forgot to give him the slide cut away. Thanks.
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Try replacing the pilot jet, it may have been cleaned out over enthusiastically and enlarged . What setting is the pilot air adjuster screw at? What slide number?, it sounds like it may be too lean.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Try replacing the pilot jet, it may have been cleaned out over enthusiastically and enlarged . What setting is the pilot air adjuster screw at? What slide number?, it sounds like it may be too lean. All of my symptoms seem to point to a richness issue though, unless I'm sorely mistaken. The pilot jet appears in good order, but I suppose replacing it outright couldn't hurt. The adjuster screw I originally set at 2 1/2 turns out from its seat per some source I read that I can't currently remember.
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What throttle slide cutaway do you have? The book say 3.5
Also is the carb in good condition with little wear?
The .106 needle jet will be slightly leaner than the .1065 and from what you describe isn't therefore the source of your problem.
It might also be useful to take the bike for a run so you get up to normal road speeds and then see how things go. As soon as I've got my replacement primary chain cover gasket. Someone decided to make their own out of Permatex and that had to go.
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2 and a half turns out seems excessive, normally , the correct setting is somewhere around 1 to 1 .5 turns out, this setting must be fine tuned when the engine is warm. At 2.5 turns out with a good pilot jet you would be very lean at idle, given the richness you are experiencing , either your pilot jet has been enlarged or you have other issues like a sinking float or poorly seating float needle valve causing high fuel levels in the float bowl. ,
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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DOPE
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hey it's been awhile, but when i lived in arizona i had to take my old bonneville in for emission testing every year to get it registered. it failed every year, too, but i developed a successful work-around.
anyway, the little paper they gave me when i failed told me the CO ratings, i believe. can you wangle a test at a licensing facility? lots of carbon monoxide means rich, and it might substitute for an A/F gauge. if you bring in a box of doughnuts in the morning, they might do a series at different rpms for you on the rollers.
just an idea.
watermelons, and turnips, and a contaminator
and other stuff
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That's what's so good about the UK, bikes are not tested for emissions  Well only a visual inspection. Is it chucking out smoke? Yes. A lot? No! Pass and advise.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
Now lets all have a beer!
68’ A65 Lightning “clubman” 71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt) 67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration) 68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)
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lots of carbon monoxide means rich, and it might substitute for an A/F gauge. if you bring in a box of doughnuts in the morning, they might do a series at different rpms for you on the rollers. I don't think this would work for a few reasons. To eliminate possible bribes it appears the process leaves no room for an employee to activate the test without first entering the vehicle's VIN at the time they confirm they've placed the payment for the test in the drawer. The test itself is automatic at a fixed road speed so there's no room for getting readings at a variety of rpms. Since for years everything on a car has been controlled by an ECE only old fashioned garages probably still have functional A/F mixture instruments. But, those that do can determine -- no doubt for a fee -- the mixture at idle. You could operate the engine at higher rpm as well, but I'm not sure a no-load reading would be all that beneficial. p.s. Arizona eliminated testing of motorcycles a decade or so ago so the anxiety of pulling into the testing bay with an AMAL-carbureted bike is gone. At least with a Bonneville you had a fighting chance of passing emissions, but with a Trident...
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How does it run without the air filter?
I tried oiled foam filters and concluded that they have to be pretty big, to avoid restriction leading to over-rich mixture.
Last edited by triton thrasher; 12/06/15 12:22 pm.
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How does it run without the air filter?
I tried oiled foam filters and concluded that they have to be pretty big, to avoid restriction leading to over-rich mixture. It ran better without the filter, but riding in Phoenix without an air filter wouldn't be a great idea. I've been trying to find another option, but the clearance between the carb inlet and my oil tank is less than two inches and the carburetor points at about five o'clock so anything round would have to be really small. I tried an offset Vokes style filter and the back plate by itself wouldn't fit. Tried a 90 degree elbow, but then I hit it with my leg and the weight causes it to sag. A full sized sock filter bends upwards and rests on the oil tank and gets oil on the back of my thigh. But I digress. Right now, the filter is thick enough that it fills the gap between the inlet and the oil tank. I'm sure that it's causing the rich mixture condition. Tomorrow my 210 main jet will get here so we'll see where I'm at once I get it fitted.
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I have found that a restrictive filter requires a bigger slide cutaway and an adjustment to the pilot screw and throttle stop.
If that improves running at slow speeds, but it's still rich at over 1/3 throttle, drop the needle by a notch.
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DOPE
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my bonneviile always failed arizona emissions, but at that time if youcame back for a retest and showed a 40? percent improvement you qualified for a waiver.
I would show up on my bike and while I was inline id pull out a screwdriver and richen the idle, then retard the spark a few degrees. I would fail horribly. so I would then go home and put in new plugs and correct the idle and timing.
on my retest I would still fail, but as it was improved the minimum amount they would issue the waiver.
watermelons, and turnips, and a contaminator
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In Jooooisey they stopped the testing of bikes about 5 years ago. Before that there were exemptions for old bikes and even for newish bikes if you went to the right private test station and slipped the guy a tenner you passed anyway. This is Joooisey after all!
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I have found that a restrictive filter requires a bigger slide cutaway and an adjustment to the pilot screw and throttle stop.
If that improves running at slow speeds, but it's still rich at over 1/3 throttle, drop the needle by a notch. Thanks for the tip. I'll keep it in mind tomorrow after I change the main jet and readjust everything.
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Main jet has 0 influence on Idle and just off idle mixture. It is all bout float level, pilot jet, slide cut away and mixture screw setting......
Just sayin'
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Id take the air filter off and try it then.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
Now lets all have a beer!
68’ A65 Lightning “clubman” 71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt) 67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration) 68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)
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Id take the air filter off and try it then. As I've said, Arizona is too dusty to drive without one, and taking it off only reduces the symptoms; it doesn't eliminate them completely.
SpencerAZ
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Main jet has 0 influence on Idle and just off idle mixture. It is all bout float level, pilot jet, slide cut away and mixture screw setting......
Just sayin' That's ask very well. If you'd care to elaborate on a solution, I'm open to suggestions. Everything except my main was as you listed before. So, can a float be adjusted on a Monobloc? Would getting a different pilot jet help? If so, do you have a recommendation? As I said, I've got no previous experience with Amals.
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There is another active thread right now about the Monoblock float jet and float height. Lots of good will info, no sense me repeating. Is there by chance a fiber washer under the needle seat that screws and into the float bowl? Original Monoblocks should not have a fiber washer. An AMAL is like any other motorcycle carb. It has 4 seperate circuits - idle, off idle, mid range, and WOT. That is the simple explanation. In reality, at least in my experience, there is some overlap and other influences. Idle and off idle is your current problem. Idle is controlled by the pilot jet and mixture screw. Off idle is slide cut away with some influence of the idle components. Both are affected by float height. BTW, does your carb have a choke? Is there it on by chance? Is your tickler sticking holding the float down? Just some things I would verify first
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Getting a new pilot jet may help ( its cheap and easy to check, theres a very good chance the old one has been so poked that instead of a tight metering hole it is now oversize and instead of the correct fit it will now be like throwing a sausage up an alleyway) , doing this from thousands of miles away is difficult though,
there are several things already mentioned here which may also cause richness at low throttle openings. Wrong float needle banjo height ( no fibre washer is correct), Sticking float. heavy float ( filling with fuel) Running with choke on, the choke is off with a tight wire, counter-intuitive. Wrong slide cutaway. I dont think you have given us the slide number ( may have missed it though ).
Your issue is not about Main jet size. Not yet any way. You need to be flat out with a wide open to 3/4 open throttle before the MJ has any real effect.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Worn out needle jet will cause a rich condition...I know first hand...
Bill 1974 Norton Commando 1966 Lightning 1965 Lightning Rocket 1966 Norton Atlas 1967 Norton Atlas 1948 Panhead
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You need to be flat out with a wide open to 3/4 open throttle before the MJ has any real effect. I glanced back through the thread and didn't see the following mentioned, but apologies if it has been. The main jet definitely can affect low throttle openings. It can do so by its absence. If the main jet has vibrated out of its holder and dropped to the bottom the bike might still run, but it will run badly due to being too rich. I've only experienced this problem once (with a friend's Matchless G80CS) so I don't know how bikes in general respond. It was a decade ago so I don't remember the details of the symptoms, but I do remember that it started with great difficulty and ran very badly. It's easy to check for -- if the jet falls out when you remove the cover at the bottom you've found the problem.
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Something that is never covered in the Monobloc literature is the importance of making sure the pilot jet is seated in the body. It is the very first thing to check when having problems with this carburetor. If it is not seated, and fuel is leaking past it, the instrument will be very rich at low throttle openings. Probably not the problem but well worth mentioning.
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Forgot its a Monobloc, MagnetoMan, i had encountered the same on a friends 650 AJS with a loose MJ in a Monobloc.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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The jets are all seated fine; I made sure of that when I was checking the numbers on them. I think I will start by replacing them all, then move to rebuilding the float and replacing the slide, etc. If worse comes to worse, i can always buy a new carburetor and end up with a spare for parts. Incidentally, i was examining the carburetor further and noticed that the connection between the carb and the head is as follows: Carb/Paper Gasket/Cork Gasket/Paper Gasket/Head
Is this correct? I have a feeling that someone was over ambitious with stealing leaks in this motor.
Also, there is no washer where the fuel line comes into the float; not upon a visual inspection at any rate. Also, the tickler seems to function normally, but occasionally, fuel not only comes out of the tickler, but out of the intake holes on the carb inlet.
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Alright,I finally got the primary chain cover gasket in the mail and was able to take the bike out for a ride for about ten miles, reaching speeds up to 55mph and here's my report:
Firstly, I installed a 210 main jet. Deceleration and shifting causes popping noises. Also, I have to retard the spark about halfway on the lever or power is almost nonexistent and stalling will occur at idle.
Running at speeds above 50 is pretty smooth running, but below that feels somewhat inconsistent, like ever so slight changes in power. Sitting at idle requires fiddling with the spark or throttle to keep it running, otherwise it seems to miss step for a few seconds before cutting out.
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Deceleration and shifting causes popping noises. That's very likely due to an air leak where the exhaust pipe enters the head. Also, I have to retard the spark about halfway on the lever or power is almost nonexistent and stalling will occur at idle. Which raises the question, retard it from what value? How many degrees BTDC do you have the magneto set when it is fully advanced?
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The carb gasket arrangement is suspicious, paper, cork, paper , it may be you have an air leak at this joint, with the motor running spray WD 40 around this joint and listen for motor changes. its better to have solid phenolic spacer between the two paper gaskets, this acts as an insulator to prevent heat boiling up the fuel in the carb. Magneto man makes two very good points, exhaust leaks wont help and your timing should be a known figure. You still havent told us the slide cutaway number. have you tried adjusting the pilot air screw for a smoother idle once the motor has warmed up? Amals do not have minds of there own, they are inanimate objects. They respond to tuning adjustments like any other carb. They do suffer from ham- fisted owners who overtighten the mounting Fasteners and warp the bodies,this can cause bad things to happen , like the throttle sticking open.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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The slide is a 3-1/2. Also, the needle is on the lowest notch, which I believe it's incorrect. Shouldn't it be something like the second notch down from the top?
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Try raising the needle clip two notches and see what effect it has
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Well, I stripped the carb down, cleaned it out, reassembled it without going crazy tightening it down, raised the needle two notches, eliminated the paper/cork/paper connection and installed a phenolic spacer and gave it a go. It's definitely running better. Throttling up from idle still has a slight hesitation, but idle is smoother and the smoke is gone. I plan on replacing the needle and pilot jets just to cover all my bases, but so far the results look promising. I can't ride it at speed at the moment because I've got a clutch issue that's needs sorting out so I've got it disassembled on the bench. Once I've got that back together I'll take it for a spin and give an update on the results. I should have the new jets by then too, which should eliminate another point of error. Incidentally, the slide and block fit neatly with little play and are not in a poor state. Ditto for the float & needle(s). The mesh fuel filter was dirty, but I've cleaned it out and added a filter between the tank and carb to help things from getting clogged.
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next time you get the motor warmed up , raise the idle speed a little using the throttle stop screw then screw in the pilot air screw a quarter turn at a time , wait around 15 - 30 seconds between each adjustment, the optimum setting is when the idle increases, and steadies. lower the the throttle stop to normal idle speed and try on the road. . Normally the correct pilot air screw setting is around 1.5 turns out. You said it was set at 2.5 turns out earlier.
Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/08/15 7:58 pm. Reason: removed slide guesswork
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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I've been waiting on a new gasket set and jets for this issue. I figured that replacing everything I can will at least rule those things out of this problem persists. The pilot jet got here today and comparing it to the old one, someone clearly did some tampering. On the old jet, the hole drilled trough the sides was obviously drilled out larger. I'm curious to see what differences I'll find when the needle jet arrives.
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I've been waiting on a new gasket set and jets for this issue. I figured that replacing everything I can will at least rule those things out of this problem persists. The pilot jet got here today and comparing it to the old one, someone clearly did some tampering. On the old jet, the hole drilled trough the sides was obviously drilled out larger. I'm curious to see what differences I'll find when the needle jet arrives. Okay, update time: I have replaced all gaskets and jets in this carburetor, keeping the slide and the jet block. I also reused the float and float needle as they were both in fine condition. The main jet is size 210, the needle jet is size 106, and the pilot jet is size 25. The needle is currently in position 3, and the pilot air screw is currently adjusted 2 turns out from the seat. I currently have the foam air filter installed however I got a hold of an alloy elbow which somebody had mentioned on here might work and it will clear the oil tank however the inside diameter of the elbow is too wide to clamp down to the body of my carburetor and the adapter collar that I have is slightly too thick to fit inside of that flange. So some slight modification is going to be required before I can properly mount an air filter to the carburetor. I recently replaced the head pipe and the muffler as well because I discovered that a previous owner had modified the head pipe from a rigid frame to fit this one and also modified where the muffler mounts so that they could put an aftermarket muffler in place of the stock one. The problem I now face is that the new head pipe does not seal properly inside of the exhaust port so I have a substantial exhaust leak which is preventing the engine from running smoothly therefore I cannot check to see if my adjustments to the carburetor and the replacement of all of those parts have corrected my richness issue. I can say though that I was able to get the engine running in three kicks despite the bike having sat unused for several weeks. That in and of itself is promising, however there was a surprising amount of smoke coming out of the pipe and the leak at the exhaust port. I cannot decide if this smoke was due to the exhaust leak or if it was still due to the carburetor not being properly tuned. I'm going to be sealing the exhaust pipe tomorrow and then trying to run the engine again. I'll follow up with an update after I get that issue corrected. Thank you all again for your help it's been appreciated and hopefully I'll be able to get this bike back on the road soon.
SpencerAZ
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You can take the pipe to your friendly exhaust shop that makes up exhaust systemsand ask them to expand the end where it goes into the head to restore the tight fit.' I used to get mine done a little too big and put the cold pipe into a hot head. Seemed to work well with the B40 & B50. Or you can buy an exhaust pipe expander and do it yourself but you must buy a good one. Anything on evilly is crap out of China and will break before the pipe expands.
Next you can take the guess work out of your tuning by fitting a colour tune. They come from a company called Gunsons and work really well as you can see the colour of the actual flame ( check out the video on the web site ). There is a U-Tube video of some one who mounted a video camera to record what was happening as he rode around the block.
It could well be your tuning is better than your timing. A retarded spark will give you sooty plugs , soft acceleration and total lack of any power at wide throttle openings.
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I decided that uploading a video of the bike running might be helpful. the smoke is a recent development I'm not sure if it's because something is worn out and it's developed a new problem or if it's because I drained about half a cup of oil out of the sump before I started it up and there was still some residual oil left in there. Also I should note that after running this bike for a few minutes there is a fairly significant puddle of oil underneath the bike from both of the breather hoses. https://youtu.be/Eu6IlHJkLRA
SpencerAZ
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Good idea with the upload. What's condition of the engine ? Did you take a bike to the normal operating temperature before the film ?
Last edited by Adam M.; 01/14/16 4:37 pm.
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Good idea with the upload. What's condition of the engine ? Did you take a bike to the normal operating temperature before the film ? The motor was warm when I took the video. I believe that it was up to normal operating temperature at the time. As far as the condition of the engine, I'm not entirely certain as I have not taken it apart. I've only owned this motorcycle for a few months and the gentleman that I purchased it from said that he had ridden it, and that everything was fine, but frankly at this point I think this was just a project that he got tired of dealing with and here we are. It was idling a lot smoother when I purchased the bike, but the condition of the Jets leads me to believe that it may have been tuned excessively rich in order to get it to run at all. It may be unfair for me to assume, but I think I've been had. This bike was sold to me as a running drivable motorcycle, but thank goodness I didn't take his word for it because in going over the bike I found nothing but erroneous repairs slapdash customisations and outright failures in nearly every aspect of it.
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Here's the second video with a brief description as well https://youtu.be/LPePBDso2Do
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That really sounds like it is way too retarded. To be 8 stroking as bad as that you would not be able to see through the clouds of black smoke. The really hard bang happens because the exhaust valve is opening when the fuel is only 1/2 way through burning. There are 2 different magneto ends used on BSA's and they are interchangeable . Early pull for advance cable enters at the back and late pull for retard, cable enters near the cylinder. Me thinks you have timmed the engine on full retard.
The excessive oil from the breather can also be due to retarded spark forcing excessive gas flow past the exhaust valve guide down into the sump . Sudden oil leak will be a blown head gasket, or a blocked breather tube on the oil tank ( Mud wasps )
If you have a timing light with an inductive trigger ( clamps to the spark plug ) you can slip the primary cover off and mark the cush drive nut at TDC with a blob of white out. Put this mark at the 12 O' clock position. Rotate the engine and put another one at your timing point , also at 12 O'clock. So now you have 2 marks on the nut about 1/4" to 1/2" apart. Start the bike and look at the marks with the strobe lamp. If timing is near right there will be one dot near the 12 O'clock position and another a little to the left when the light flashes. If you have timmed it full retard then 1 or both of the dots will be to the right of 12 o'clock. Crude rude & unsoficticated but good enough to verify the timing. While you are there play with the advance / retard lever and watch where the dots appear.
When I use to ride the A 10 I had a timing disc glued to a strong magnet which I placed on the cush drive nut to time the engine accurately as it was running 11:1 pistons so if not spot on would self destruct.
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That really sounds like it is way too retarded. To be 8 stroking as bad as that you would not be able to see through the clouds of black smoke. The really hard bang happens because the exhaust valve is opening when the fuel is only 1/2 way through burning. There are 2 different magneto ends used on BSA's and they are interchangeable . Early pull for advance cable enters at the back and late pull for retard, cable enters near the cylinder. Me thinks you have timmed the engine on full retard.
The excessive oil from the breather can also be due to retarded spark forcing excessive gas flow past the exhaust valve guide down into the sump . Sudden oil leak will be a blown head gasket, or a blocked breather tube on the oil tank ( Mud wasps )
If you have a timing light with an inductive trigger ( clamps to the spark plug ) you can slip the primary cover off and mark the cush drive nut at TDC with a blob of white out. Put this mark at the 12 O' clock position. Rotate the engine and put another one at your timing point , also at 12 O'clock. So now you have 2 marks on the nut about 1/4" to 1/2" apart. Start the bike and look at the marks with the strobe lamp. If timing is near right there will be one dot near the 12 O'clock position and another a little to the left when the light flashes. If you have timmed it full retard then 1 or both of the dots will be to the right of 12 o'clock. Crude rude & unsoficticated but good enough to verify the timing. While you are there play with the advance / retard lever and watch where the dots appear.
When I use to ride the A 10 I had a timing disc glued to a strong magnet which I placed on the cush drive nut to time the engine accurately as it was running 11:1 pistons so if not spot on would self destruct.
The magneto is an MO1L and the cable enters from the back side, close to the battery. The way the control works (which I think is backwards), is that pushing the control forward pulls the cable, and pulling toward you, while seated, pushes it back, observed from the points cover. The smoke is grey, so it's certainly oil, but before, the carb was running so rich that black smoke was present, but that has been corrected. Condition of the plug is sooty, but not wet. I have a copy of The Book of BSA, and planned on timing the engine according to the recommended procedure. I am correct assuming that I should time from fully advanced, yes? On the MO1L,this is with the cable fully pushed in (observed from the points cover),correct?
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Should have read the post much more closely. That is an M series magneto with pull or advance, push for retard. So you should be timing with the cable tight ( full advance )
Because there is no key on the timing gear, the timing can slip both when you are doing up the nut on the pinion and if the engine backfires. I don't think any two BSA single owners actually do the timing the same way.
Last edited by BSA_WM20; 01/22/16 10:31 am.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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yes, cable slack is full advance, Because there is no key on the timing gear, the timing can slip both when you are doing up the nut on the pinion and if the engine backfires. I don't think any two BSA single owners actually do the timing the same way. I gather then that re-timing will be a fairly common maintenance practice? In your experience, can timing be achieved with the head in place or do you recommend removing it.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/15/16 11:38 am.
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With a degree wheel on the crank and a wodden skewer down the plug hole I lay a trimming knife ( Stanley to some ) blade flat on the head and make a line in the skewer. Then rotate the engine to firing position and do the same. I now have a timing stick the goes in the tool box on the bike. In the workshop it is the degree wheel on a magnet on the crank.
Very important when doing this is to take the piston back 1/2 way down the cylinder then bring it back up to firing position to account for wear in the drive train to the magneto.
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I'll be setting the timing on Tuesday once the pinion puller gets here and let you know how it goes.
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Well, I set the timing, and then reset the timing, and then re reset the timing, and then as I was kneeling down next to the motor applying some throttle to see if the carburetor was andjusted, as it was still running poorly, I noticed there was smoke coming out from between the head and the barrel, so now I think I've got a blown head gasket, & I need to fix that before I will probably have to retime it yet again. At this point, I'm seriously getting fed up with this bike. It was sold to me as running and drivable from someone who seemed knowledgable and reputable and is even a member on this forum, but I've found nothing but serious problems with it. Every time I fix one thing, I find two other things wrong and without stripping it completely down and starting from scratch, I doubt that I'll ever get it running well enough to ride. Frankly, I didn't pay what I did for a total rebuild. Sorry for venting my frustrations here, but I've invested months and a lot of money and feel like I'm getting no where.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/21/16 8:40 pm.
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After checking my spares catalogue, it doesn't show a head gasket for the B33. Is that really the case? If so, why is smoke and fluid being spat it from the joint? Yes, fluid. Hard to tell if it's fuel or oil, or probably both, but the fin at the joint is wet, and there's spatter on the head pipe.
Is it possible that this is the source of my problems? I'm still getting sharp popping ignition and combinations of black and grey smoke.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/21/16 8:37 pm. Reason: grammar correction and additional information
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Spencer, you are having a bad run with this bike but anyway I will try to help, this is long winded but read on as I feel some advice you have been given is not correct but you have also been given good advice too. Be very careful setting the ignition timeing. Make absolutely sure you know what way you advance or retard the timing with the cable as from reading the previous posts you have been told correctly and incorrectly or else I have read it wrong. On your magneto the cable enters the battery side of the end housing, that means you have to pull the cable (which you have been told) to advance the timing, end of story. It does not matter what way you push or pull the handle bar lever, as long as you tighten the cable by either pushing the lever or pulling the lever you will advance the ignition timing. People get mixed up in this because they fit levers from the right hand side to the left hand side of the handle bars. You have to know if its cable tight advance or cable slack advance and lever toward you advance or lever away from you advance. Another thing, setting the main needle clip in the bottem hole produces a richer setting, not a leaner one. Think about it, you are raising the needle and letting more fuel out for the same throttle setting. If you think any engine is running rich, turn the fuel tap off while it is running and watch closely what happens, does it start to run better or run worse, that will tell you for sure if its rich or lean. Watching your bike run on your video it looks like the timeing is maybe retarded but its not actually running that bad, that could explain the smoke you seen coming from the engine because it will start to run hotter like that, these bikes leak oil from nearly every joint, a bit of oil on the fins under the cylinder head will soon start to smoke, 5 or 6 seconds of retarded ignition and a couple of revs on my bike produces a wisp of smoke from the engine and exhaust pipe, you would think the engine is pulling a load up a hill as it does not want to rev with the ignition retarded. Now, here is how I ignition time my B31, its not 100% accurate but it gets the engine running very very close to correct. Set the advance / retard lever and cable to the full advance position. Kick the bike over slowly until you feel the compression stroke. Remove the spark plug. Bring the piston up slowly to the top so you can see it and set it at T.D.C (top dead centre) taking into account there is a dead spot in the crank at the point where the crank rotates but the piston doesn't move, you have to feel for it. Get a vernier caliper and measure the distance from the edge of the spark plug hole to the piston and whatever it is in Millimetres, add on 13 millimetres. I know the vernier will be pointing at a bit of an angle at the piston but is accurate enough for now. Now rock the engine back and take the piston back down and place a piece of thin cigarette paper between the points, rock the engine forward again and bring the piston up slowly until the piston is the distance you measured plus the 13 mm from T.D.C. That means your piston is now 13 mm from T.D.C. At that point your points should just be starting to open which you can confirm if the paper has been released from between the points. If not you can move the points slightly or if it is completely wrong you will have to remove the right hand side engine timing cover and remove the magneto drive pulley from the taper on the magneto shaft with the special puller that threads into the gear wheel. You will know when you have the ignition timing set right if you have the ignition timing fully advanced with the lever and you kick the bike over compression after priming it without actually trying to start it and the engine kicks back at you, retarding the ignition with the lever will soon show you where it doesn't kick back and that is the sweet spot where my bike starts first kick every time. Retarding it further produces a engine which is impossible to get to fire never name start.
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Spencer, you are having a bad run with this bike but anyway I will try to help, this is long winded but read on as I feel some advice you have been given is not correct but you have also been given good advice too. Be very careful setting the ignition timeing. Make absolutely sure you know what way you advance or retard the timing with the cable as from reading the previous posts you have been told correctly and incorrectly or else I have read it wrong. On your magneto the cable enters the battery side of the end housing, that means you have to pull the cable (which you have been told) to advance the timing, end of story. It does not matter what way you push or pull the handle bar lever, as long as you tighten the cable by either pushing the lever or pulling the lever you will advance the ignition timing. People get mixed up in this because they fit levers from the right hand side to the left hand side of the handle bars. You have to know if its cable tight advance or cable slack advance and lever toward you advance or lever away from you advance. Another thing, setting the main needle clip in the bottem hole produces a richer setting, not a leaner one. Think about it, you are raising the needle and letting more fuel out for the same throttle setting. If you think any engine is running rich, turn the fuel tap off while it is running and watch closely what happens, does it start to run better or run worse, that will tell you for sure if its rich or lean. Watching your bike run on your video it looks like the timeing is maybe retarded but its not actually running that bad, that could explain the smoke you seen coming from the engine because it will start to run hotter like that, these bikes leak oil from nearly every joint, a bit of oil on the fins under the cylinder head will soon start to smoke, 5 or 6 seconds of retarded ignition and a couple of revs on my bike produces a wisp of smoke from the engine and exhaust pipe, you would think the engine is pulling a load up a hill as it does not want to rev with the ignition retarded. Now, here is how I ignition time my B31, its not 100% accurate but it gets the engine running very very close to correct. Set the advance / retard lever and cable to the full advance position. Kick the bike over slowly until you feel the compression stroke. Remove the spark plug. Bring the piston up slowly to the top so you can see it and set it at T.D.C (top dead centre) taking into account there is a dead spot in the crank at the point where the crank rotates but the piston doesn't move, you have to feel for it. Get a vernier caliper and measure the distance from the edge of the spark plug hole to the piston and whatever it is in Millimetres, add on 13 millimetres. I know the vernier will be pointing at a bit of an angle at the piston but is accurate enough for now. Now rock the engine back and take the piston back down and place a piece of thin cigarette paper between the points, rock the engine forward again and bring the piston up slowly until the piston is the distance you measured plus the 13 mm from T.D.C. That means your piston is now 13 mm from T.D.C. At that point your points should just be starting to open which you can confirm if the paper has been released from between the points. If not you can move the points slightly or if it is completely wrong you will have to remove the right hand side engine timing cover and remove the magneto drive pulley from the taper on the magneto shaft with the special puller that threads into the gear wheel. You will know when you have the ignition timing set right if you have the ignition timing fully advanced with the lever and you kick the bike over compression after priming it without actually trying to start it and the engine kicks back at you, retarding the ignition with the lever will soon show you where it doesn't kick back and that is the sweet spot where my bike starts first kick every time. Retarding it further produces a engine which is impossible to get to fire never name start. You clarified some of my confusion. On the magneto, I've been timing it with the cable slack for advance, assuming that tightening it was retarding the timing. If I tighten the cable fully, having timed it as such, the kickstarter kicks back on me when trying to find TDC (on compression stroke, I think, but only one time), but kicks over relatively easily with the cable about midway to fully slack. From the sound of it, I've timed it backwards and should time it instead with the cable tightened fully for advance. The smoke from the head I'm certain is from a leak and not burn off. At idle there is no smoke, but application of the throttle creates a sudden, but slight puff. Also, there is an oily, black residue being spattered onto the exhaust down pipe directly across from where the head and barrel meet. However, if I've timed it poorly, and since there is no gasket, then perhaps this is just a symptom of my error. I also understand that raising the needle, selecting a lower notch, enriches the mixture. The confusion there probably lies with me not being clear enough in my description, but I appreciate the clarification. Currently, the needle is set on the second notch from the top with a 106 needle jet, 210 main, and 25 pilot. The pilot screw is two turns out from being fully seated. This was suggested for use with an air filter. Today, I was able to get the motor idling without constant throttle, but needed to back the pilot screw out almost completely. However again I think this was probably due more to my error in setting the timing. If it's helpful to know, the spark plug was black, sooty, dry at the electrode, but wet around the threads. When I first purchased the bike, the plug would be soaking wet, and between running the motor I had to burn off the fuel with a lighter or outright replace it between tests. For setting the timing, other than having the advance set wrong, I think I've done everything else correctly: I set the points when fully open to between .010 and .012. I put a .002 feeler in the point where it closes at about 7 o'clock, and rotate clockwise, pulling slightly on the feeler until it slips free at roughly 11 o'clock. I use a socket wrench to turn the motor forward and with the tappet cover removed, find the compression stroke. I turn the motor back to the beginning of the stroke and put a square wooden dowel in the plug hole, perfectly upright, and rotate the engine forward until I feel the point where the piston is at TDC, but not yet turned into the power stroke. I then put a pen knife flat on the head and press a mark into it, remove it, measure a point 7/16 above it, mark that with the knife, rotate the engine back to the beginning of the compression stroke, and forward until the notch in the wood meets the edge of my knife. I then put the mag pinion onto the shaft and tap it home with a socket and a mallet, and tighten the nut back on the shaft with slow even pressure until the gear train shows signs of movement, check my settings again and button everything up. If I'm missing a step, please point it out to me. I'm going to try my hand at this again tomorrow morning.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 3:04 am.
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I made a boo boo with the previous posting which I have modified.
You have a pull for advance ( slack retarded ) so you should be setting the timing with the table tight
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Well, I retimed the engine with cable tight for full advance and it's running with a more even sound, but still putting out a lot of smoke and loud, thudding ignition. Also, where the head and barrel meet, I can see bubbles forming, so there's definitely a leak which I'm not sure how to correct. I'm uploading a video of the bike running and I'll put the link here when it finishes. Addendum: Video link: https://youtu.be/qeZJByaO5g0Second video with head removed: https://youtu.be/12VmgMHYL0I
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 4:59 pm.
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Spencer, I read how you are timing your engine and you have it done 100% as good as you can do it. You understand it better than I thought, especially measuring the distance from T.D.C with the dowel rod and using a pen knife to mark the wood for measurement.
After listing what you say about the wisp of smoke from the joint between the head and barrel it is possible you have a leak there, its also possible the four head bolts are not tightened enough, they are not tightened squarely or they could be seized where they are meant to turn so they wont pull the head down tight enough. Its a daft system where you have to tighten the head down to hold the barrel on at the same time with an open ended spanner. In saying that it works actually quite well with no cylinder head gasket.
If you can see something being spattered onto the exhaust in line with the head jiont then it most likely is coming from the head joint. Also the black sooty plug indicates running rich as well as the four stroking sound or it sometimes is as bad as 8 stroking. Wet spark plug threads in my experience is a sign of excessive oil in the combustion chamber from either cylinder bore or valve stems. I did notice you can kick it over relatively easy, on all my B31's I can actually stand on the kick starter and practically jump on it before it will go over compression, I use the decompressor lever all the time to get the engine to where I want it for starting. You can see the oil smoke from the exhaust when its running. Did you try turning the petrol tap off an running the bike until it stops and see what it does? In your video its sounding more like what a British single should sound like but its still running rich.
Lastly this is for BSA_WM20,it takes an honest man to admit he made a boo boo, even a slight one, I take my hat off to you as there are very few honest men left in this world.
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I added a second video just now. I removed the head from the motor to inspect the cylinder piston and valves hopefully that will help shed some light on the situation. I also think that at this point as far as the rich mixture issue is concerned I'm better off just purchasing a brand new carburetor outright and eliminating any fault in the carburetor as a possibility.
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Also I just noticed upon inspection of the cylinder head that the intake valve is larger than the exhaust valve which seems backwards but neither of them are marked.
Correction the exhaust valve is marked g2 with ex on the opposing side
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 5:23 pm.
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Intake valves are generally equal to or larger than exhaust vales in most engines.
The reasons are the intake charge is more dense than the exhaust charge, therefore taking up more physical space, and the exhaust charge is under pressure so that helps it evacuate the cylinder vs the intake charge being under vacuum to get into the cylinder.
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While the head is off, block off the spark plug hole and fill it with fuel. If the valves are making a good seal the fuel should not leak out.
A shot of the top of the piston would be good.
The bolting system is called through bolting and was considered superiour at the time and is a good argueing topic at the pub ( bar to some ). Please get some gaskets and replace all the goo, yuck. The only good thing is, it tells that the last person who put it together was a moron mechanic with little idea of old BSA singles, or just plane bone lazy. The BSA spannar for those through bolts is wider than an normal open ender and there is a flare nut spanner that will fit.
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Intake valves are generally equal to or larger than exhaust vales in most engines.
The reasons are the intake charge is more dense than the exhaust charge, therefore taking up more physical space, and the exhaust charge is under pressure so that helps it evacuate the cylinder vs the intake charge being under vacuum to get into the cylinder. More dense means the same mass takes up less volume.
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Hi, B31 has covered most of the issues, and like him I think that your engine is very easy to kick over !! So poor valve seating, poor bore sealing and or a bad head joint??
The method of sealing the head to the cylinder goes like this,, providing that theres no damage or distortion to the inner and outer joint faces
Remove head and cylinder, clean joint faces as much as possible Put a little fine grinding paste around the inner joint face (spigot) and some coarse on the outer face, rotate the head and cylinder against eash other back and forward (same as lapping in a valve) wipe off and replace the paste often until the faces show an even surface all round The coarse paste will remove a minute amount more than the fine The inner faces provide the seal, and the minute gap allows the clamping force to be applied to the inner
HTH John
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I think lazy is probably right. Or they just wanted to slap it together quickly. I think they also had an aversion to oil leaks, but why they thought a 60 year old BSA shouldn't leak is beyond me.
I'll try that trick with the petrol tomorrow morning.
I'll also get a shot of the piston put up. It was remarkably clean, despite the fluid in the exhaust valve recess. The valves had much more carbon buildup.
SpencerAZ
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Intake valves are generally equal to or larger than exhaust vales in most engines.
The reasons are the intake charge is more dense than the exhaust charge, therefore taking up more physical space, and the exhaust charge is under pressure so that helps it evacuate the cylinder vs the intake charge being under vacuum to get into the cylinder. More dense means the same mass takes up less volume. Well then... Water/steam. Water is more dense, and the steam from that water does indeed take up more space. You are correct. However to move them both the same amount of space in the same amount of time using the same amount of force, the water needs a larger opening to move thru. Irregardless of the form of the matter, the mass is the same. So I guess it comes down to drag coefficients?? It's easier (I guess) to say that intake valves are supposed to be more bigger. I forgot to take my vitamins today.
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Spencer , your motor is clapped, when you were sold a running motor , the seller left out the fact that BSAs will keep running past the point of normal death, one of the great but inconvenient things about them.
Given the extreme richness, leaking head joint and such you have a couple of options. You are 1 minute away from pulling the barrel, do it , with feeler gauges measure the piston skirt clearance at north South east and West, at the lower unworn section and at the top just below the ring travel lip. Wear will be obvious if you can get more feelers in the top than the bottom by 3 thou or so its done. Check the rings are there in one piece and installed correctly, check the big end for vertical play, dont fret about lateral. With the barrel off , and a bare head lap the barrel onto the head with coarse paste, ( Valve grinding paste will do, apply the paste to the inner section and let it work out to the outer, lapping involves placing the head on the barrel and oscillating the rub about 45 degrees , give it 30 cycles and check, an uneven finish means more lapping and a warped head.
Option 2 requires a bucket of hope, believe everything is OK and box it up and try again. This seldom works.
Worry and ask about refitting the barrel later. I suspect the previous owner seldom used the bike , trailer show queen, all show no go. If you want to ride it and feel good , look at the guts and make some tough decisions. its the battle of entropy and enthalpy.
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71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Is that ring that I found between the head and barrel supposed to be there? Upon closer inspection it isn't perfectly round on the outside edge, and the Book of BSA and the spares catalog don't show it. It's at least 1/16 thick, so in addition to creating a leak, could it also be affecting the timing?
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 8:40 pm.
SpencerAZ
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As requested. Piston is marked "020": ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_5670-20160122_135338100967327_zpsm45rsvrw.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_5670-download_20160122_135421-307520777_zpslgqealvy.jpg)
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 8:57 pm.
SpencerAZ
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Spencer, before you lift the barrel off get a cloth rag and put the piston to T.D.C. Ease the barrel up enough to get the rag stuffed in under the barrel in around the mouth of the crank case and the con rod. When you lift the barrel on up if there is any broken compression rings or oil control ring, they now wont fall into the crankcase and cause you more hassle getting them out. Follow Chaterlea25's advice about sealing the head to the barrel, he knows what he is doing. Also intake valves on most engines are bigger than exhaust valves, that's just the way it is. Also your barrel should now be slack the way yours is since you have the head off, like I said in my previous post the head has to be tightened down to hold the barrel on.
With regards your piston its in my opinion the top two ring groove widths are more important than anything, they should be 1 or 2 thou bigger than the piston ring thickness, top groove always wears more than the second groove and the second groove always wears more than the third groove. If the ring isn't a snug fit in the groove then it slaps up and down when the engine is running which wears the aluminium piston groove even more which can lead to broken rings. If you take a compression ring off the piston and place it into the barrel and push the piston against it to square it in the bore you will see what the ring gap is depending on how much the bore is wore and how much the ring is wore, the two ends of the ring should be almost touching each other on a new bore with a new ring, in a worn engine they will open up and allow compression to escape.
In theory no part of the piston should ever touch the bore, its the piston rings only that should touch the bore, in practise there is the odd engine that something goes wrong with and the piston touches the bore, you see the scuff marks on the piston skirt when you pull it apart for a rebuild and you wonder how it didn't seize itself. I have rebuilt Komatsu loading shovel engines with 24,000 hours on them that the pistons looked to the naked eye as shiny and brand new as the first day the engine was built. Apart from some soot on the piston crown and combustion chamber, the only thing wrong with them was the ring grooves were 10 to 15 thou wider than the new rings so they were scraped.
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Just seen you new post and pictures, to answer you question, no there should not be a ring between the head and barrel, if the piston was hitting the head for whatever reason you place a shim under the barrel to rise both barrel and head up. This would be a common thing when putting a Triumph T120 piston into a B31 engine to give you 400 cc as opposed to the standard 349 cc. It takes a 2mm thick shim to do it in the case of the B31.
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I'll be pulling the barrel off tomorrow and I appreciate the tip about the rag. Additional photos and perhaps a video will be provided. Also, I did that petrol test on the head and nothing leaked past the valves.
I know this is just wishful thinking, but is it a possibility, however remote, that the ring in the head is the source of my problem? It would certainly affect timing, compression, and interfere with a clean seal at the head; a combination that would almost certainly prevent an engine from running properly. The condition of piston crown, valve seating and the mild carbon buildup seem to indicate otherwise normal operation. I'm just trying to find my silver lining, haha!
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/22/16 10:40 pm.
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Could you be more specific about inner and outer face? Am I applying this to the head, the barrel or both? Is the fine applied to the flat face and the course to the perpendicular edge? I'm trying to be clear because I'll be taking a crack at this in the morning.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/23/16 2:27 am.
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I had one of these as my first bike about 50 years ago when I replaced rings with out a ring compressor I would individually compress each ring into the cylinder and then position the cylinder and piston on the rod and slide the pin in then fit the remaining circlip ,after you bin that ring between the head and cylinder be sure to reset your tappets from memory they had 3 thou clearance .
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I'm sure this doesn't make much difference, but my motor is stamped "HC" above the serial number. High compression I assume? By how much, I'd like to know, but also wonder if there is anything specific to these engines I should look for in the way of faults or parts.
SpencerAZ
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Here's a link to a photo album for this thread. The piston, rings, and barrel all look good. I measured the barrel N, S, E, & W, top and bottom, with a caliper and the gap is the same. Retested the valve seat with petrol and still does not leak. Found the barrel to case gasket was only partially complete and filled with Permatex. I've ordered a proper gasket set from the UK before I put anything back together. What else do you gents think I should be checking for. Besides that ring that shouldn't be there, I'm not seeing any obvious flaws. http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/SpencerAZBSAbucket/library/Mobile%20Uploads
SpencerAZ
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Carefully take your rings off the piston. Put them in the bore and square them up using the piston then check the end gaps with feeler gauges
BSA B31 500 "Stargazer" Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie" Greeves 350 Greeves 360 GM500 sprint bike "Deofol" Rickman Jawa 500 "Llareggub" '35 & '36 OK Supreme Yamaha RD250B Kawasaki Ninja H2 "Fujin"
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The piston looks pretty fresh + 0.020" , the top ring ( may be dirty oil marks ) has strange black lines on it, the barrel shows a lot of scoring again maybe some oil marks, there is a witness mark from a rusted seizure, how clean was it? Andy is spot on with his ring remarks. Could be all the trouble was the head seal. https://s3.amazonaws.com/hires-avia...5e84858c-5d20-4ec2-aac4-21088ae2253c.jpgI would have the barrel honed and fit fresh rings, gaskets and build it up, the scoring wont really go away and you will burn a little oil but once the rings seat it will be useable. Look out for a plus 40 piston and consider a fresh bore in the future. Using a caliper to get the bore size isnt that great , most wear takes place about an inch down the bore, the calipers will register on the unworn part at the top, check the skirt again about one inch down the bore from the top with feelers compare with the bottom. The HC may mean High Compression, you can check this during assemby, measure the volume of oil the combustion chamber contains at TDC by filling through the spark plug hole with a calibrated syringe, Say 40 cc Chamber , Swept vol , 350 cc. 350 + 40 = 390 total volume, divide by 40 = 39/4 roughly 9.9 to one. After the test pull the head off again and clean up the oil, you dont want a bore full of oil on start up, the rings should be almost dry to seal correctly. The head joint should lap up easily, iron heads are usually pretty stable. I take it you havent done many miles yet, the best thing to do would be ride it, change the oil a few times during the break in and enjoy (hopefully) , then you will know what needs attention.
Last edited by gavin eisler; 01/23/16 9:41 pm.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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The black lines are my greasy fingerprints. There are oil marks and seizure marks, but nothing that I can feel. To the touch, it's smooth as glass.
I'll be checking the fit of the rings tomorrow morning. I haven't ridden it more than ten miles. When I bought it, I changed all the fluids, and adjusted the brakes, test drive it, and found that the clutch was dragging badly. I pulled it apart and fixed it, but took the gearbox cover off and find a bad Permatex seal, as well as a home made kickstarter return bumper glued in with Permatex that had started turning to goo in the case. I cleaned all that out and installed a new bumper and proper gasket and then found the timing was off and the mixture was still too rich after I fitted new gaskets and jets to the carb...and now we're here. I think I'll probably just fit a fresh carburetor to eliminate that as a fault source too.
Whoever put this bike together was in a hurry and too cheap to pay attention to the little things; almost every gasket was a poor reused one glued with too much Permatex, and a lot of the screws were sealed with the stuff too. The guy I bought it from didn't care enough about the bike to find any of the problems I have, or found them, but didn't want to deal with them. I'm trying to justify fixing this bike, but I paid for a running, riding bike and got a barely running rebuild instead. So I'm thousands in the hole already, and now we're talking about machining...
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I added some extra photos to that album that you can link to on the previous page. If you'll notice in one of the pictures the rings are stamped 040 but the piston is stamped 020
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Put each ring in the barrel, one at a time. Square them off with the bottom of the piston same as if your were going to measure the ring gap only this time hold them up to the light. The rings should touch for their full circumference, except at the gap, naturally.
If you can see a lot of light under the rings the moron bastard has filed down an oversized ring to fit. A real cheap & nasty trick but it did get you back on the road, for a while.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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These rings have been corroded, +40 rings on + 20 piston , not good. Do you own feeler gauges? Your bore is probably badly worn, i dont trust your caliper readings. The DPO has left you a bodged up mess. Best of luck.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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These rings have been corroded, +40 rings on + 20 piston , not good. Do you own feeler gauges? Your bore is probably badly worn, i dont trust your caliper readings. The DPO has left you a bodged up mess. Best of luck. Thanks. Just waiting on coffee then I'll be checking the rings for fit. Pictures will be added, naturally.
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Put each ring in the barrel, one at a time. Square them off with the bottom of the piston same as if your were going to measure the ring gap only this time hold them up to the light. The rings should touch for their full circumference, except at the gap, naturally.
If you can see a lot of light under the rings the moron bastard has filed down an oversized ring to fit. A real cheap & nasty trick but it did get you back on the road, for a while. Well, as I said before, whoever threw this thing together was cheap and in a hurry.
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All three rings were squared off with the piston about halfway down the bore and checked with a feeler gauge. No light was visible around any of them, and I could not get a .0015" feeler between the ring and bore. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160124_093606_zpsst6d8ymn.jpg)
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Measure the end gap,it looks too big
BSA B31 500 "Stargazer" Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie" Greeves 350 Greeves 360 GM500 sprint bike "Deofol" Rickman Jawa 500 "Llareggub" '35 & '36 OK Supreme Yamaha RD250B Kawasaki Ninja H2 "Fujin"
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Measure the end gap,it looks too big Scraper ring: .032 Compression rings: .046
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Put the rings near the bottom of the bore and measure them again. The rings are definitely fukced, if the gap when near bottom of bore is much less then the bore is also worn. Max gap is around 0.010-0.015
BSA B31 500 "Stargazer" Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie" Greeves 350 Greeves 360 GM500 sprint bike "Deofol" Rickman Jawa 500 "Llareggub" '35 & '36 OK Supreme Yamaha RD250B Kawasaki Ninja H2 "Fujin"
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Put the rings near the bottom of the bore and measure them again. The rings are definitely fukced, if the gap when near bottom of bore is much less then the bore is also worn. Max gap is around 0.010-0.015
At 3/4" from the bottom of bore: Scraper ring: .024 Compression rings: .040
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You will may just get away with the bore. You definitely need new rings. Personally I would get a rebore and new piston/rings/pin/circlips (especially with the corrosion damage). Then you know it will be right
Last edited by Andy Higham; 01/24/16 2:04 pm.
BSA B31 500 "Stargazer" Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie" Greeves 350 Greeves 360 GM500 sprint bike "Deofol" Rickman Jawa 500 "Llareggub" '35 & '36 OK Supreme Yamaha RD250B Kawasaki Ninja H2 "Fujin"
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You will may just get away with the bore. You definitely need new rings. Personally I would get a rebore and new piston/rings/pin/circlips (especially with the corrosion damage). Then you know it will be right Should I just get it bored for .040 and get the same sized piston and rings then? I've seen cylinder hones before, but I'm not sure if you'd recommend them. I don't know anyone locally that is familiar with these bikes that I'd trust with the work, and I hesitate to mail the barrel anywhere.
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Honing is only to rough out the bore so the rings bed in, it not for taking a worn +20 thou bore out to +40, it needs boring on a machine and then honing to give the crosshatch pattern so the rings bed in to suit the bore. If you hone out a worn bore which is belled out in the middle then it stays belled out when it should be straight.
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Honing is only to rough out the bore so the rings bed in, it not for taking a worn +20 thou bore out to +40, it needs boring on a machine and then honing to give the crosshatch pattern so the rings bed in to suit the bore. If you hone out a worn bore which is belled out in the middle then it stays belled out when it should be straight. Gotcha. A friend of mine who got his KZ750 machined is sending me the info for a local shop he trusts so I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what the damage is. I'm correct that I'll need to go to 040 and get the appropriate piston and rings though, right?
SpencerAZ
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I'm not sure if this is helpful or the best way of doing this, but if I lie the barrel sideways and pave the piston inside without the rings and take a feeler gauge measurement at the 12 o'clock position, here are my readings at the top of the barrel and the bottom: ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160124_131845_zpsxiyu7l9r.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160124_131741_zpsyoje02f5.jpg)
SpencerAZ
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Make SURE to get the piston/rings before you have anything cut.
Make SURE the manufacturer supplies the needed cylinder/piston clearance, and ring gap. These numbers do change from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Members here may have experience with several brands but every brand is different. The OEM specs mean nothing today. Materials have changed so make SURE you have the parts in hand, and the numbers on paper before you head to the machinist, and make SURE he can/will do exactly what you need done. Lots of machinists will rely on what they know or how there machine performs, and disregard what you ask/spec out.
It's obvious that your bike was resurrected to make a fast sale. You have the opportunity to correct all the poor work, and make a very nice bike out of it so attention to the smallest detail is important now.
Now, I am curious as to the condition of the bottom end. Since the bike sat long enough to suffer a rusted bore, chances are not good that the bottom is pristine. You might just want to consider a total rebuild.
What a scope... From poor jetting to a total tear down. Like a gal with make up, wig, padded bra, girdle, high heels, false teeth, contacts. You have no idea what you might have under all that.
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You nearly got the piston clearance right, pistons are wider at the bottom than the top, clearances must be taken round the lower skirt not the top ring area, insert the piston upside down and check the skirt to max wear zone about an inch from the head joint. before you bore out, get the new oversize piston, the machinist needs the new piston in his sweaty palms to get the fresh bore clearance correct. Zombie makes a good point, at this point its " what you dont know cant hurt you, but later it might bight your ass"
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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What a scope... From poor jetting to a total tear down. Like a gal with make up, wig, padded bra, girdle, high heels, false teeth, contacts. You have no idea what you might have under all that.
I know what I paid for her, that's for damned sure. I've got an engine marked HC with a 66-483 connecting rod. My spares book doesn't list this rod though, and I'm not sure if it's long or short. Anyone got a clue? As for the bottom end... The clutch plates needed a lot of grinding, but the bearings were good and is the crank sprocket and primary chain. The timing gear train looks great, and the connecting rod is solid. There's play side to side, but up and down nothing at all. Granted, speculation is no replacement for solid facts, but I'm uncertain whether it's necessary at this point. But i didn't think any of this would be, soooo...
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You nearly got the piston clearance right, pistons are wider at the bottom than the top, clearances must be taken round the lower skirt not the top ring area, insert the piston upside down and check the skirt to max wear zone about an inch from the head joint. And it's clearance front to back.
Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
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You should take measurements from the thrust faces of the bore IE; front & back of bore as it sits on engine. Judging by the rough measurements you have given I would say buy a new +040 piston and get the barrel bored to manufactures spec. I have just rebored a BSA single which when measured at the top & bottom thrust faces looked in spec but when measured with a internal micrometer is was 11 thou oversize in centre of bore. I would take your barrel to engineering shop to get a accurate measure. Also make sure you get the right piston as there are ones for long & short conrods! yours should be long rod but best to check as someone might of changed rod/crank. Dave
1941 BSA WM20 1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT 1957 THUNDERBIRD 1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL 1947 BSA YM21
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The number on the rod is not a part number its a casting number, they are sometimes numerically close to the part number. Generally a con rod part number may include the complete big end and matching crank pin, hence the difference.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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You nearly got the piston clearance right, pistons are wider at the bottom than the top, clearances must be taken round the lower skirt not the top ring area, insert the piston upside down and check the skirt to max wear zone about an inch from the head joint. before you bore out, get the new oversize piston, the machinist needs the new piston in his sweaty palms to get the fresh bore clearance correct. Zombie makes a good point, at this point its " what you dont know cant hurt you, but later it might bight your ass" The gap at the max wear zone at an inch from the top is .0012" and it's the same at the bottom. And that's .0012 front and back.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/24/16 5:55 pm. Reason: correction to data
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The number on the rod is not a part number its a casting number, they are sometimes numerically close to the part number. Generally a con rod part number may include the complete big end and matching crank pin, hence the difference. Don't suppose this helps ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160124_144803_zpsuhanifbt.jpg)
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And you are out by one decimal place. 12 thou is .012" not .0012" No real drama but it is a little confusing and is people do not read the posts carefully they will be thinking the clearences are too small not too big then giving you the appropriate information to what they saw thus further confusing you. If it were me I would get a new + 40 piston then take the barrels to the machine shop. Remind them it is a iron barrel air cooled engine so needs bigger clearences that a water cooled car engine ( they forget and bore them too tight ). Next take the crank to a workshop ( not a shop front ) that does HD's or Ducattis and ask them to check the bottom end for you.
We all feel for you, it has happened to most of us but if you are going to put the time & money into it then get it done properly.
At a head shop get the valve guides checked. These are difficult to check at home but the head shops usually have some really cleaver kit to measure them & the valve stems properly.
By the time you have finished, you willbe very knowledgable about B33's and will be offereing advice to others. Once sorted they will give a very long service life so it is worth the effort to get right the first time.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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Hi Spencer, Your engine has a high compression piston fitted,(7.5:1?) the usual LC were flat topped It has a long rod, easy to spot as the pin is near the bottom ring The bore is toast, I know they will run with grooves and scores but you are never going to be happy doing a half arsed job The +040 rings were a bodged attempt to sort it then sell it on Get the engine shop to remove the valves and check the valve and guides as these are more than likely needing attention as well New valve springs are also advisable Regarding lapping the head, the inner face is the recess in the head and the top of the lip /spigot on the cylinder The outer faces are where the head bolt holes are on the cylinder and head In the video of the bike "running" I can hear a lot of gear noise This is common on B31/33's when the magneto gear is too tiightly meshed with the idler pinion This is caused by wear on the mag platform and magneto body It can be sorted by shimming if not too bad, The magneto strap tends to pull the gears tighter together  Sometimes an alloy strip can be placed between the front strap and magneto body to keep the gears correctly meshed The mesh is correct when a strip of paper can be passed through the gears without it being cut through by the gear teeth Of course the "correct" method of reclamation of this probblem involves welding and remachining the cases and restoring the magneto body to original, mucho $$$$$ In the video you posted the engine is eight stroking and misfiring, and reluctant to rev If this was soley rich mixture there would be clouds of black smoke from the exhaust Not so! I suspect a magneto problem ? I would have the magneto checked out while you have the engine apart. Sorry to be the bearer of all this "bad news" I have both a B31 and B33 engines in the workshop at the moment The B31 was sold to the current owner as "done" He was "done " allright, !!!! the engine was totally worn out but still just about able to run, after a very few miles it packed up The B33 bore was totally worn out on max oversize, It has now been resleeved back to std, I had difficulty finding a Std high comp piston HTH John
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And you are out by one decimal place. 12 thou is .012" not .0012" No real drama but it is a little confusing and is people do not read the posts carefully they will be thinking the clearences are too small not too big then giving you the appropriate information to what they saw thus further confusing you. If it were me I would get a new + 40 piston then take the barrels to the machine shop. Remind them it is a iron barrel air cooled engine so needs bigger clearences that a water cooled car engine ( they forget and bore them too tight ). Next take the crank to a workshop ( not a shop front ) that does HD's or Ducattis and ask them to check the bottom end for you.
We all feel for you, it has happened to most of us but if you are going to put the time & money into it then get it done properly.
At a head shop get the valve guides checked. These are difficult to check at home but the head shops usually have some really cleaver kit to measure them & the valve stems properly.
By the time you have finished, you willbe very knowledgable about B33's and will be offereing advice to others. Once sorted they will give a very long service life so it is worth the effort to get right the first time. I was accurate with my decimal place. The only feeler that would get in there needed help and was my smallest one: .0012" or .03mm Getting it done properly is all I think should be done. I'm interested in this being a regular rider and "just making it work" doesn't fit that end. But now I'm looking at huge costs on a bike I already way over paid for. I mean, I've been seriously bent over a barrel already, and at this point I may as well assume that everything is garbage and rebuild literally the entire bike. Don't get me wrong, I like working on it and I feel confident doing so. Frankly, I expected to be putring in regular work. But the value I paid in purchase will be what it's worth when I'm done, so everything I spend now feels money thrown away, and in spite of my passion for these old singles, that's a hard reality to ignore. But for the sake of arguement, if I'm looking for a piston and ring set, how do I know what to buy? The engine is stamped HC, which research suggests means high-compression. I don't know if the barrel matches the case though and I also don't know what rod I have, long or short. My spares book is not helpful, so does anyone have a suggestion?* *The post above came up as soon as I posted this. Thank you for your advice. And as for bad news, so far there hasn't been good news with anything on this bike. So it's just news at this point, haha!
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/24/16 9:06 pm.
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I need a little more input regarding the piston. I found this: http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=199&id=2988...and it's listed for my year with a long rod. I cannot find a domed piston like the one I pulled from my motor, but since there was a shim fitted between the head and barrel, I'm going to assume that someone tried using an off-stock piston. I could be wrong though. I've been searching for all kinds of B33 pistons online and the only thing that looks close to the one I pulled is a Hepolite Goldstar piston. I'm sure that this piston-the flat topped one in the link-would work fine without any ill effects, but not having a frame of reference, I'm open to suggestions. My spares catalogue doesn't list anything but 65-1244, so I'm assuming now that the long vs short rod might be the reason behind the "HC" stamped on my engine case. The piston I currently have is marked inside "B178" which is about as useful as a truckload of dead rats in a tampon factory (is Top Secret not a brilliant film?), so I'm at a loss. Barring any advice to the contrary, I'll probably opt for the piston in the link.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/25/16 2:34 am. Reason: Better example of piston from different web store
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Chaterlea said "It has a long rod, easy to spot as the pin is near the bottom ring", all of his advice is excellent. +1 on checking the mag. " If your skirt clearance is really only 0.0012" then it is too tight, clearance should be around 4-5 thou for a fresh bore.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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If your skirt clearance is really only 0.0012" then it is too tight, clearance should be around 4-5 thou for a fresh bore. So you have the possibility to get it bored out 3 to 4 thou only and still stay at +20 thou as long as the rust marks etc clear up. Leave it up to the machinist to decide based on his measurements and if he can bore out that amount.
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If your skirt clearance is really only 0.0012" then it is too tight, clearance should be around 4-5 thou for a fresh bore. So you have the possibility to get it bored out 3 to 4 thou only and still stay at +20 thou as long as the rust marks etc clear up. Leave it up to the machinist to decide based on his measurements and if he can bore out that amount. So should I get the machining done and then get a piston, or buy both sizes and return the one I don't use? Zombie recommended that I'll want to bring the piston with me. The piston is pretty tight. Without the rings, it slips into the barrel easily, but if I put the barrel flat on the table and drop the piston in it, it actually builds up pressure and slows down to a gentle tap when it reaches the bottom.
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Chaterlea said "It has a long rod, easy to spot as the pin is near the bottom ring", all of his advice is excellent. +1 on checking the mag. " If your skirt clearance is really only 0.0012" then it is too tight, clearance should be around 4-5 thou for a fresh bore. He and I posted about the same time, so I didn't see his post until after I hit submit. I'll check the mesh too, but I don't think the mesh is too far off. The pinion slips in and out a lot more easily than I would have imagined, but that might just be proof positive for "the right tool for the job". I'll throw the pinion back in today and try that paper test. I'll put up a photo or two also.
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Take your barrel and current piston to the machinist, a good one, you explain what you have measured but want him to confirm your measurements. If they are right and he can clean up the bore and give you 4 to 5 thou clearance with the current piston leave it all with him.
If he says it will not clean up then he stops at that point and does no more for the time being. You buy a new 40 thou piston and then take this back to him, he can measure the piston and bore to suit again giving you 4 to 5 thou clearance.
Do not allow him to bore without first having a piston, he needs to measure the piston to get the right bore size.
Just because your current piston is stamped +20 do not assume its a BSA B33 +20 thou, as you cannot find an exact copy it may be from a different engine. So measure the bore and check its actually B33 +20 (well minus 3 to 4 thou based on the piston clearance).
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Take your barrel and piston to a place that does re-bores, they will check dimensions, if its as tight as you say they should be able to bore to suit the piston, you are lucky it didnt seize in a big way. Someone au fait with B33s will recommend the correct clearance.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Hi Again, If your skirt clearance is really only 0.0012" then it is too tight, clearance should be around 4-5 thou for a fresh bore. That wont work!!! The diffference in size is on the pistons not the bore There are different types of pistons used on B33's Split and solid skirt Splitskirt clearance is 0.001 -0.003 Solid skirt is 0.004- 0.0055 Heres a link to a HC +.040 piston in the USA http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-B34-B33-500-SINGLE-ROBBINS-040-PISTON-PART-M-1230-85MM-PLUS-040-INCH-/311244710832?hash=item4877a163b0:g:efkAAOSwMpZUqhGN Rings are easily available in USA same as Gold Star http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-040-Piston-Ring-Set-B33-B34-M33-Models-Single-Gold-Star-NOS-/231823741389?hash=item35f9c591cd:g:y28AAOSwo0JWLALI Go for it!!! John
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The magneto platform looks a little chewed up; like someone tried to file it even maybe? The base of the magneto itself looks fine though. The pinion was meshed a bit too tight and I think I could get away with shimming the mount. Is there anything special recommended for this? Shims made for this purpose, or something for the whole base, or simply a thin washer around each peg? ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160125_091112_zpsq0lnjku8.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160125_091147_zpsefqsrmgi.jpg)
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It looks a bit like someone strapped it too tightly, perhaps. The pegs clearly left an impression
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Sorry sir. That will take much more than "shimming".
That mag was left loose in there at some point, and wore those slots into whatever you could call those shapes.
The only way out that I see is to fill/weld the slots, and have them re-machined. There is a chance you could build a flat shim to fill the entire mount out of a piece of stainless or other hard metal to hold the alignment but I wouldn't trust that for long.
Let the experts chime in but it looks like more machining to me.
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There is a chance you could build a flat shim to fill the entire mount out of a piece of stainless or other hard metal to hold the alignment but I wouldn't trust that for long.
I have shims on my WM20 made from brass sheet. I took the inlet cam out and left the idler pinion in place then centralised mag armature as best I could looking where the oil seal sits after I had fitted shim and clamped the mag down tight & refitted mag pinion and turned the idler to check mesh for tight spots you could user a thin piece of paper for this between the teeth! Once happy just replace oil seal and put the lot together, bike has done around 9000 miles with no trouble or horrible noises. One you have right shims fitted and you keep the straps tight you shouldnt need to do this again... Dave
1941 BSA WM20 1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT 1957 THUNDERBIRD 1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL 1947 BSA YM21
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Hi Spencer and All, On the base of the magneto the machining marks can be seen This means the magneto base has been skimmed !! It looks as though the crankcases had some weld applied and "fettled" roughly  The mag seems to then have been refitted without shims? That would mean its spindle was sitting too low The spindle centre height from the magneto base should be 45mm Shims can be alloy, brass or stainless one piece of shim the size of the mag base with holes for the pegs In my previous posts I covered this issue of cost reclaiming the cases It really is a piss poor setup  John
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Hi Spencer and All, On the base of the magneto the machining marks can be seen This means the magneto base has been skimmed !! It looks as though the crankcases had some weld applied and "fettled" roughly  The mag seems to then have been refitted without shims? That would mean its spindle was sitting too low The spindle centre height from the magneto base should be 45mm Shims can be alloy, brass or stainless one piece of shim the size of the mag base with holes for the pegs In my previous posts I covered this issue of cost reclaiming the cases It really is a piss poor setup  John It's sounding more and more like this bike had been hacked to pieces and then patched together hastily without any long term use in mind. I don't know what I'm going to do at this point, but I've barely scratched the surface of what this bike needs and for what I've invested already, I could have bought another Royal Enfield. Honestly, I'm hesitant to dig any deeper into this thing for fear I'll find that I'll need to buy a whole bottom end, and it's looking more likely considering the condition of the crankcase. I haven't even dug into the gearbox beyond the outer cover, and given that I found a Permatex kickstarter bumper turned sludge, it's anyone's guess what other bandaids are in there.
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My local magneto guru "Peter Scott Motorcycles " replaes those round pins with real woodruf keys the fill the 1/2 round slots. These hold the magneto square to the case and are well worth the few $ he charges for them.
However if we do them down here in OZ they must be available elsewhere.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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Slick solution! Square peg in a square hole... Who woulda thunk it?
As he shakes his head, walking off into the sunset, the sound "Dohhh" was heard again, and again.
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replaes those round pins with real woodruf keys the fill the 1/2 round slots. These hold the magneto square to the case... While that sounds like a good modification, it won't necessarily solve the problem. The keys have to be narrower than the slots to allow for fore/aft movement (with respect to the engine) to get the correct mesh of the gears so the Woodruff keys can't actually hold the magneto square to the case. Some small amount of twisting motion is possible because of the difference in sizes which means only the front or rear edges, rather than than the flat sides, of the Woodruff keys can make contact with the case if it's not properly bolted down. If that happens they'll "eat" into the case just as the round pegs did. SpencerAZ -- check your PMs.
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Anyone know how to get this clutch sleeve off? I'm trying to get the gearbox out, but hit a dead end. Got the cush drive off easy, but I can't see a solution here. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160125_165722_zpsqx7ym9ov.jpg)
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See the fine threads on the end of it? There is a puller that screws onto it so you can pull it off the taper on the shaft. Check this link out. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/61-3362-BSA-6-SPRING-CLUTCH-EXTRACTOR-TOOL-B31-M20-A10-ETC-/371463089595?hash=item567cecedbb:g:rC4AAOSw37tV~BPi
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See the fine threads on the end of it? There is a puller that screws onto it so you can pull it off the taper on the shaft. Check this link out. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/61-3362-BSA-6-SPRING-CLUTCH-EXTRACTOR-TOOL-B31-M20-A10-ETC-/371463089595?hash=item567cecedbb:g:rC4AAOSw37tV~BPi Ah! It's always a special tool. Am I going to have a similar issue getting the cush drive on? That spring is impressively strong.
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Mr. Spencer, You're gonna want to break my fingers but... What's up with the bronze rod stitching in that case?
I'm positive that the heat generated from that sort of repair attempt has distorted your case. Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials.
My vote is for removing that engine from the frame, and... working overtime for a few months to pay for it.
The hit list of must do's is growing.
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Mr. Spencer, You're gonna want to break my fingers but... What's up with the bronze rod stitching in that case?
I'm positive that the heat generated from that sort of repair attempt has distorted your case. Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials.
My vote is for removing that engine from the frame, and... working overtime for a few months to pay for it.
The hit list of must do's is growing. What's up is that whoever worked on this bike didn't know his ass from page eight. Here's a shot of the whole case. I think it was probably an attempt to salvage rust damage. And that gunk is...go ahead and guess. I'm tired of saying it. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160125_194503_zpsuo2ckwyh.jpg)
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Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials It's not aluminum, it's stamped steel. While not the prettiest brazing job I've ever seen, it's far from the worst. As for distortion, those stamped steel inner and outer covers are never not distorted.
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Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials It's not aluminum, it's stamped steel. While not the prettiest brazing job I've ever seen, it's far from the worst. As for distortion, those stamped steel inner and outer covers are never not distorted. Which is probably why all the mating surfaces, including where felt washers should have been used, were sealed up with everyone's favorite bandaid, Permatex (I've started hating the word). Even the cover gasket-which I've replaced with the proper cork one-was made from a piece of punched out leather strap and glued in with an obscene amount of that stuff.
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Ok. I see it is a stamped steel inner case. I have a fella coming by to break my pinkies, don't I?! 666 Pennsylvania Ave.. I'm the white guy in jeans...
Last edited by Zombie; 01/26/16 1:35 am.
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Ok. I see it is a stamped steel inner case. I have a fella coming by to break my pinkies, don't I?!
666 Pennsylvania Ave.. I'm the white guy in jeans...
Yeah, that narrows it down, heh! At any rate, further inspections are hindered by the lack of a clutch puller, so until that arrives... Maybe I'll luck out and find something not snafu. (Who am I kidding) Perhaps in the interim I'll pull the tires off and see what the rims look like.
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Mr. Spencer, You're gonna want to break my fingers but... What's up with the bronze rod stitching in that case?
I'm positive that the heat generated from that sort of repair attempt has distorted your case. Actually that is the first time I have seen bronze rod used on aluminium, and the only way it could possibly stay attached is by wicking into the crack, and hanging on by interference rather than a melding of materials.
My vote is for removing that engine from the frame, and... working overtime for a few months to pay for it.
The hit list of must do's is growing. That is because it is a steel inner and the killer spring is obviously the pre WWII and M20 single spring clutch which I don't think B series got lumbered with after WW II.
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See the fine threads on the end of it? There is a puller that screws onto it so you can pull it off the taper on the shaft. Check this link out. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/61-3362-BSA-6-SPRING-CLUTCH-EXTRACTOR-TOOL-B31-M20-A10-ETC-/371463089595?hash=item567cecedbb:g:rC4AAOSw37tV~BPi Ah! It's always a special tool. Am I going to have a similar issue getting the cush drive on? That spring is impressively strong. Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike. Or you can assemble the entire clutch , including the hub using a drill press or plain old press or a big vice, or a lenght of all thread and some nuts & big washers. If you use the extractor then the entire clutch can be removed as a single unit and replaced the same. When you use the extractor, remove the clutch pushrod or you will bend it more than it already is. The extractors work well with a rattle gun or you make it really tight then give the end of the tool a smart whack with a big hammer. Now a word of caution here as too hard a smack can break off the thin lip holding the bearings in thus requiring welding & remachining.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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now as you have the single spring clutch and considering the mess the rest of the bike was in, did the clutch have a cover that bolts onto the chain wheel ? If not you will need to get one, or change the clutch as without the "top hat" single spring ( dry ) clutches get oily then cease to work, usually 1/2 way up a really big hill, in heavy trafic , a log way from the nearest help in an area that has no cell phone coverage.
You have the option of staying with the single spring, which is a bitch to assemble & disassemble as you have already found. or fitting a 6 spring which is easy to work on but a right royal bastard to set up or getting the adapter & fitting the Triumph 4 spring clutch which works better and is easy to set up & maintain.
Bike Beesa Trevor
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Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike.
Looks like a 6 spring centre to me!. I normally use a old gearbox sprocket nut from a pre unit A10 screw this onto clutch centre the use a two leg puller with a bit of heat on centre it will pop off.. Dave
1941 BSA WM20 1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT 1957 THUNDERBIRD 1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL 1947 BSA YM21
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Yes Sir you will need the BSA single Spring clutch tool to do it on the bike.
Looks like a 6 spring centre to me!. I normally use a old gearbox sprocket nut from a pre unit A10 screw this onto clutch centre the use a two leg puller with a bit of heat on centre it will pop off.. Dave I already ordered the puller for the clutch sleeve. WM20, the strong spring I was referring to was the cush drive spring on the crank end. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/Mobile%20Uploads/20160126_080343_zpsv5b5umq3.jpg)
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/26/16 11:08 am.
SpencerAZ
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HI Spencer, Hmmmm????? The damage to the inner case as seen is usually caused by missing tubular spacers on the foot rest mountings, there should be tubular spacers between the inner case and engine plates and one with flared ends between the case halves When the footrest is tightened without the correct spacers and washers the inner case is forced inwards and the final drive chain chews away at it http://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.ph.../category/1066-b-c-m-group-plunger-rigidThe spring shown for the cush drive looks "long" to me How many turns on that spring? Whan assembled, the nut must butt up to the sleeve on the crankshaft and be tightened to 65ft lbs Measure the compressed length of the spring , it should be less than the space for it when the nut is fully threaded on It is possible that the wrong spring is fitted ???? John
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Have to say the tale of horror continues inside the primary chain case, I have seen some bodges in my time but this is definitely getting worse. Spencer, you have my sympathies on this one. That's definitely a six spring clutch centre on your gearbox input shaft. Something has seriously went wrong at sometime to end up with a chain case patched up like that, I suspect too the two spacers and cork gaskets have been missing at some stage on the foot rest shaft.
Again im agreeing with chaterlea25 that the cush drive spring looks a little long, any B series bike I worked at I was able to hold the outside nut with the four slots in it with my finger and thumb and push against the spring and get it started onto the thread on the crankshaft, it may have taken a couple of goes and I could have more strength than I realise but it hadn't that much tension that I couldn't push against it with my hand and start the nut onto the crank.
The whole idea of this assembly is to take the sharp direct drive as it were out of the engine where it is driving into the clutch, you want to ride a B series bike with the outer chain cover off and watch down at that cush drive mechanism work as you accelerate and de accelerate, it does some amount of moving in and out against the spring. One other thing I found is you soon know when the nut has slackened off because you can hear the lobes ratcheting over the top of each other when you accelerate. They can not ratchet when correctly assembled and tightened but it can move in and out.
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I should clear things up by saying that I know it has a six spring clutch because I pulled it out already, as well as the foot peg spacer and washers and primary chain. I don't know about turns in the spring, but if looked at in profile, the ends are parallel with two angled "turns(?)" between them. Again, if you look at the brazing, the upper right line goes perfectly with the forward chain guard, there is a spot the size of a dime forward of the drain plug, and a patch at 11 o'clock at the crank end. All that gunk around the crank cutout is clear Permatex that I haven't cleaned off. Personally, I think the brazing was used to fix rust damage, especially considering the patch where the chain guard is and the fact that the cover plate is in remarkably good condition without any warping or obvious damage. Cork washers on the foot rest shaft were replaced by Permatex and rubber O rings. The felt washers were replaced with Permatex and the outer cover plate gasket was a leather strap with heaps of black Permatex for filler. I was able to drive about ten miles or so when I bought the bike (after changing all the fluids and making preliminary adjustments) and discovered the clutch was dragging. I started a thread about it actually. At any rate, I'm dismantling the bike so I can look at everything. I know that the bike is a complete disaster. I've owned nothing but motorcycles for ten years and have nearly 100,000 miles between three different brands. I do all of my own work down to wheel truing and tire changes with levers and a static balancer. Before that I owned a 240Z, 280Z and a Fiat Spyder so I feel reasonably confident in my mechanical aptitude. While this is my first vintage motorcycle, and most definitely a learning experience, my need for assistance here is due to a lack of experience with machines of this ilk, and a desire to do a proper job in repairing what, by rights, is a complete clusterfuck. If it helps for reference, I've also got a copy of the BSA, 1949 to 1952-3 OHV spares catalogue, and Haycraft's Book of the BSA. I just felt like I needed to give you all a little background because I gather that some of you might believe this to be my first time turning a wrench.
Last edited by SpencerAZ; 01/26/16 11:25 pm. Reason: using my phone. ..
SpencerAZ
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Not much left ![[Linked Image]](http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t650/SpencerAZBSAbucket/20160127_112921_zpsdlxvq7zj.jpg)
SpencerAZ
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Has this bike spent anytime Abroad, I see additional chrome and the bodges would suggest maybe India. I have seen similar modifications on other BSA models from that area... Dave
1941 BSA WM20 1958 TRI-BSA 750 PRE UNIT 1957 THUNDERBIRD 1932 R E MODEL GS SPECIAL 1947 BSA YM21
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Has this bike spent anytime Abroad, I see additional chrome and the bodges would suggest maybe India. I have seen similar modifications on other BSA models from that area... Dave I don't think it spent time abroad, but I think someone probably bought cheap parts from India. I see a lot of that crap on eBay and the price would be tempting enough for someone interested in "quick" rather than "right".
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That one looks like he had some professional help. More like JB Weld.
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Its not looking good, what other mysteries await, hmmm. Its hard to F up a BSA gearbox , that might be OK.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
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Its not looking good, what other mysteries await, hmmm. Its hard to F up a BSA gearbox , that might be OK. the gears inside look good. And the patch is soft, so it's certainly Permatex...man, this guy had a hard on for RTV. I'm worried about the lower end of the engine.
SpencerAZ
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Don't worry too much about the lower end. You are this far, go the rest of the way.
The 2 worst thing that can happen to those bottom ends are loose/broken rivets on the crank axles or damaged tapers in the flywheels. Yes it happens, but it tends to happen more on a sporting motor, not a cooking motor,
BSA heavy weight pre-unit single engines are, IMO, fairly well designed and surprisingly robust for the technology used. It will probably need bearing and the crank rebuilt. A bit different than a modern pressed up crank, but the idea is similar.
Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
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Don't worry too much about the lower end. You are this far, go the rest of the way.
The 2 worst thing that can happen to those bottom ends are loose/broken rivets on the crank axles or damaged tapers in the flywheels. Yes it happens, but it tends to happen more on a sporting motor, not a cooking motor,
BSA heavy weight pre-unit single engines are, IMO, fairly well designed and surprisingly robust for the technology used. It will probably need bearing and the crank rebuilt. A bit different than a modern pressed up crank, but the idea is similar. Is this something I can order parts for and fix myself, or is custom fabrication necessary?
SpencerAZ
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Well, today I'll be selling this machine to someone with more means, who can give it the attention it deserves.
Let this post also serve as a warning to anyone here that might ever have dealings with Douglas Scott of Southwest British Restorations LLC in Tucson, AZ. He sold this bike to me, assuring me at the time of sale that this motorcycle was completely functional, that he rode it often, and that it was fully capable of a 40 mile ride home. His friends in Phoenix--where I picked it up with a truck (thank goodness)--also assured me of how great this bike ran, and backed up his reputation for knowledge and honesty. I admit that my lack of experience with motorcycles of this vintage played their part, but I think it is obvious to anyone who reads this thread that I was swindled.
Learn from my mistake.
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I'm very sorry to hear when anyone has such a bad experience that it causes them to abandon a project like this. While some of the photos and descriptions earlier in this thread were pretty dire, every story has two sides and it would be nice to hear the other one from the seller.
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I wouldn't mind hearing his side either. I'm not trying to disparage him unfairly, but as he has a business dealing in vintage motorcycles, I think it's only fair to give my experience. Unfortunately, abandoning this project is my only recourse. I paid a substantial sum, the value of a drivable machine, and I simply can't afford a full restoration. It sounds like the person to whom I'm selling to has the money to devote to this bike, so while I'm disappointed that I won't get to enjoy riding it, I'm at least happy to know that it won't remain a pile of parts.
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i read this with great interest.while not exactly the same bike my '54 b33 suffered from similar maladies including that HORRIBLE mag dyno registering system. thousand i spent and to be sure there is nothing that CANT BE FIXED, it takes heaps of cash and lots of ingenuity. after all that i spent and repaired i didnt like riding it all. and didnt shed a tear when i sold it. as to the case.before you get carried away spending any more money, break it down to bare cases and check the main bearing fit in the cases carefully check for cracks around the main bearing recesses in the case halves and note if there are any punch marks around the bearing recesses (to tighten up a wallowed out bearing bore) if you find any of the above, stop and reread this post. also check and evaluate the the oil pump drive bore for excessive wear,it can wear so bad that the oil pump drive barely meshes. please dont ask how i know this. in my case id have been better off buying a complete ABSAF version and aside from the head and assorted other parts JUNKING THE REST.i dont write this to rain on your parade or cause pain its just i have been down this road.by the way my seller was from arizona as well. and have you at least "eye balled" the frame? if you are interested i dont enjoy telling the aforementioned story,
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