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After the OVBSAOC meet in August I got excited about all of the Victors there and decided to move my locked up bike to the front of the to-do list.

I've had it soaking in Kerosene for a long time and it didnt seem to be working . Yesterday I pulled it out from under the covers to possibly through it on the truck and take it to NYC with me to start taking it apart. For shits and giggles I sat on it and put my foot on the kicker and low and behold- It moved freely in a downward motion! .... I got so excited that I kept on kicking it.... Yeee Haaaw !! Removed all the duct tape from points cover and around the oil cap. Cover has been repaired (see photo) but the oil tank is full of clean new oil... Thats a plus I said to my self.



Lets see if we have spark. Nope !

Got some dangling wires but they look like they should have lead to the headlight? Maybe? See photo



Point are moving . Maybe my ET coil is bad. Dont know ... But I pulled the seat off and found some strange things...

Is this the way a 66 seat mounted?


And the rear mounts?







Is there something missing here. Should there be another screw hole at the button for the round cover. Hard to see in the shadows but there is not a hole like there is at the top


Looks like a student had this bike from new or close to new

Could have even been Wanda who was the previous owner. (She was a babe in her photos at least)

Some PO welded the rear fender mounts it seems. I think my seat mount is bolted, I'll go look later. Yep there should be a screw hole at the bottom of the points cover. I'll look and see how my wires are on my 66 and try and get back to ya. Nice start! Gene

So fender mounts are correct except have been welded?

The slots in the U-shaped bracket on the seat slide over the top shock mounting bolts. That bracket is a little flimsy and with a lard ass rider, fore and aft movement of the seat is prone to crack the seat pan at the captive bolts.

The 3 way block connects the coil under the seat with the points (white/black)and the ET alternator. Seat is from a 67 model. The 66 should have a single saddle which bolts through the vertical tubes welded to the frame loop ahead of the shock mounts. You can also use that twin seat bracket to mount a single saddle to the shock mounts; I've done that on my 68 frame. Rear mudguard mounts are correct for 65,66 &67, but have been re welded. Should be 2 screw holes in the cover each with a pillar bolt to mount the cover screws.

Enjoy!

You only need b/w, b/y and red wires from the stator to run. Brown/blue and brown/green are headlight and taillight.

Hiya,
On a long disused bike the crap and carbon blackening settles to the bottom of the oil tank
So the first time you go to attempt to run the engine all the crap gets sucked into the engine

Drain and clean out the oil tank and crankcase !!!!!

HTH
John

Also I don't think the round lugs or socket head screws on the rear frame loop are supposed to be their. They look like some DIY add on for the seat to rest on.

Larry

I can't see the socket head screws you mention but those tube lugs on the rear loop forward of the shock mounts are bog standard. Fitted to all C15C, B44E and B44EA frames. The bolts go from underneath and screw into the seat base of the short single seat.

The socket head screws look to be on the bracing bar at the rear of the oil tank, this looks to be an addition of a piece of angle iron, no idea if the seat rests on it or not.

I will have to look again but I think the coil and rectifier ect. are mounted to the bar..... I will look agin this weekend.

On '66 & '67 frames, the angled iron brace/bracket is the standard mounting point for the oil tank and coil bracket. On your bike someone used socket head screws to mount the coil (instead of stock bolts).

Thats helpful. I need to look at the workshop manual I have. I assume it will have a wiring diagram as well.

Is there a difference in the side cover and point plate between 66 and other years? I still need to tear into the motor so I might as well put it back together with nice parts if I can find them.

The Points plate (4ca) and sidecover are both the same for '66 & '67. Lots changed in '68 like the sidecover due to a different oil tank and mounting method, and points changed to 6ca that relies on a remote fitted condensor. I've updated my point plate and mounted the points near the coil.
Adam

In case u can't find it...

Awesome Thanks. Does anything ever show the routing of the wires? My wires seem routed in a weird way. As in the wire from the rear break switch goes up to the seat on the outside of the frame toward the coil area, then back to the brake light. Doesnt seem right but its too short to route it any other way . Needs more investigation.

No, that routing is correct. There should be a small hole in the L. side of the fender near the filter housing for the brake wire to be routed inside the fender (and clipped in) to the taillight housing.

Using Shaun's advice of getting in the workshop for a bit at a time, I got a little deeper into the Victor this weekend. That and the boss wasnt around to push me on the kitchen project.

Things I have learned and things I have questions about.


The rear most cover bolt was long and had a nut on the back side. Is that correct or a bodge?

I hadnt noticed that my side cover also had a bodge. Well a repair I should say. Looks like the foot peg went through it at some point and it has a brown epoxy or something sealing it up on the inside. I think I will try to find a better cover for the rebuild...

The clutch basket.... (The large bit that the chain rides on) is very loose. I can rock it laterally and in and out. Seems like something is wrong there as well.



Next question. The left side foot peg on an A65 is reverse threaded. This one is not. Is that correct for the Victor?

And the nut on both sides are the same but a 20mm wrench fits better then a Whitworth. Is that correct?


Lastly . I was getting short on time and as soon as I found myself reaching for a screwdriver to pry the oil pipes off I decided to quit before I damage the surfaces. BUT .... Its not coming off.... I removed the nut and washer and kerosene (from the stuck piston) started leaking out . The pipe moves a tiny bit back and forth but will not pull off. and doesnt move up and down either.... Am I missing something?

The long bolt is correct, it would originally have screwed into a rear chain oiler, its best replace by a nut as it sprays too much oil around.



Either the rollers are worn or more likely the outer clutch inner face worn, I take a few thou off the clutch inner to restore normality.



Should be as A65 until 70 and then the reverse thread was dropped



Yes cycle thread but Whitworth sized heads




Not once the nut and washer are off the stud the oil pipe manifold should pull off, its a leak point until they added O rings to the manifold so suspect gasket goo holding on too well.

[quote]]Should be as A65 until 70 and then the reverse thread was dropped [quote]]


On 66 and 67 frames, the footrests are held on by a long straight through stud with R/H thread on both ends. A L/H thread was not necessary because the flat on the footrest engages with a flat on the frame lug. 68 frames had a L/H threaded short stud and taper fitting footrest on the left side.

Vic is right, had forgot the earlier footrests. The C15 had the A65 setup, why they dropped it for 66/67 and then reinstated it for 68 is a mystery.

The 1966 & 1967 B44 Victor frames are the same as the C15C frames that were used on the C15 scramblers and trials bikes and also on the B40 Enduro Star. Those all used a long bolt to hold on the foot pegs that engaged with the frame with a stepped mounting as in the picture above. Even the earlier goose neck framed C15 dirt bikes had a similar footpeg mount set up. The road bikes used a left side splined stud and differently located peg frame mounting points . In my opinion in 1968 when the Victor switched to the road bike staggered friction footpeg mounts they took a step backward.

Peter

" Lastly . I was getting short on time and as soon as I found myself reaching for a screwdriver to pry the oil pipes off I decided to quit before I damage the surfaces. BUT .... Its not coming off.... I removed the nut and washer and kerosene (from the stuck piston) started leaking out . The pipe moves a tiny bit back and forth but will not pull off. and doesnt move up and down either.... Am I missing something? "

Is it possible that the nut has been overtightened?
That may result in the bolt hole being crushed & gripping the bolt.....

Good point 441. I will keep that in mind when I get back to the project this weekend....

Bill Edwards came to visit last weekend and questioned some things on my Victor.

Rear Brake switch was the first questionable item.
Is this correct?







He also noticed that my left shock is bent



And we both noticed that the rear loop is bent more on the right more then on the left. Is this the was it is supposed to be or has this bike been through the ringer?


He was still questioning these fender brackets as well. He didnt think they looked factory



Does anyone know what other rear rims will fit this hub? Only 66 Victors or all BSA singles or more then that?

The asymmetry of the rear end is shown on the frame drawing that AML provided
.
The foot brake switch looks about what BSA threw together at the time.
What year and what is the frame designation? Your bike is very similar to my C15C.

Don in Nipomo

Its a 66 VE . Looks like my frame may be a bit tweaked then. hopefully not too bad. I plan to strip the whole thing down anyway. Should be able to check it out better then.

No wait --- Thats not the frame that looks bent , its the rear fender loop. Separate piece if I am looking at the photos right. So is that piece asymmetrical?

Your fender support does look tweaked. Frame doesn't to me.

If you look at BSA frames in general, the rear is usually asymmetrical.

You will enjoy it when you are done

The Wipac brake switch is correct for 1966 but I suspect that it shouldd be flipped round so that the switch is facing outwards. All 64 - 70 "C15C" type frames are assymetrical, your rear mudguard loop is bent outwards on the right hand side. The rear mudguard tabs are standard but a crap welder has repaired them at sometime.

Rear rim should be WM3 x 18 but if replacing it, the piercing will need to match the hub (2 X 2 pattern). The hub is a C15 competition hub used on the B44 for 66 only. All later B44s use the Crinkle Hub (1 X 1 piercing pattern).

Other points:- There should be a return spring on the brake pedal between the upright part of the lever and the frame gusset
The chain guide for the bottom run is missing together with the chain guard.

The washers for the bottom shock mounts should be dished and are almost impossible to find.

Nice project, I'd love it - best of luck.

Got a rear wheel thanks to RichB :bigt Complete minus the brake drum. Hope its as nice as the photos. Couldnt sleep till ebay came back online last night

Dished like these?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Progressive-suspension-14-Series-Shock-13-Black-BSA-B44-Victor-1966-1972-/231726816409?hash=item35f3fe9c99:g:eosAAOSwo0JWMSiE&vxp=mtr

Made some progress on the Victor this weekend. Motor is out. Now the fun begins....

Off with its head!

Finally decided that I have too many distractions in PA and brought the motor to NYC where I can work on it at Sixth Street. So today was the day.

Anticipation was really getting to me. The bike looked a mees on the outside and the motor was locked up when I got it. Even though I got it to brake loose eventually I really was expecting the worse once I got into the engine.

Off came the head but I could already see that someone had been into this motor before. But how long ago and to what purpose?

Some one deciding to modify the valve train but lighting it a bit.





Once the barrel was off I was grinning ear to ear.
Pretty clean inside and no rust that a honing didnt take care of in the barrel. 4 thou clearance piston to cylinder wall. and zero up and down movement on the rod.


Piston is Japanese made and is 20 over I believe . Looks like it was polished before being put back together




Used a heat gun to try and remove the rings but it only worked on 2 of them. Top compression ring is really stuck. I will try boiling the piston next


Also found a repaired spark plug hole. Doesnt go all the way through but I might keep it that way. Any opinions ??


Barrel honed and looking great


Like a freshly cleaned shotgun

I think I will change the valves back to standard and get new guides. The drive sprocket is pretty worn so I will replace that along with the seals that go along with that job. Hopefully that will be about it. I may find other issues since I have not taken the primary chain and clutch off yet but I feel pretty stoked about the findings today.

HNY Wade, for the top ring keep alternating heat ( gun, or blow torch) and cold ( ice pack )it will come eventually, the prep on the piston looks good, nice find.
The plug really needs full length threads, two reasons, conducting heat and a carbon build on the end threads will trash the threads on removal.

inlet valve looks a little pocketed , a shallow angle cut to remove the pocket lip will help flow gas.
Cheers
G

A bit late for that Gav.
It looks very much like a helicoil in there already.
If this is the case, it will be prudent to have it removed and a solid insert fitted.
Helicoil ( recoil & similar ) do not make a gas tight seal.

Lighter valve gear is usually a good thing, less stress on cams and valve gear, less chance of valves and piston getting it on when missing a gear.

This looks like it may have been a home made conversion..... Dont know....I say that just because the flat side of those four cone halves seemed to have been hack sawed to make fit the modified valves.

Any other opinions ? Keep the lightened valve train or trade it in on standard????

Its not exactly a high revving engine,, alloy keepers can pull through so I would go back to std.

Did they lighten the rocker arms also or just install
the keepers?

Good question. I will look in the morning . I didn't notice anything but I wasn't looking for it.

Wade,
A lot will differ with me on this but IMO those 441's represent the best BSA had to offer of the sixties classic British bikes. Once sorted they don't have the inherent problems of the A series twins or the plain bearing singles. While not a rocket sled they have enough power to ride on all but the interstates. Parts are very available and inexpensive. They are light and more maneuverable if you want to do some off road riding and you can easily resprocket them for 60-65mph cruising. A little head porting and a 32mm carb and some clutch work they scoot pretty good. You won't outrun any 650 twins but you can stay in reach.

Glad to see that you are resurrecting one an I hope you enjoy I as much as I have mine over the years. I lusted for what you have back in the sixties but between college and a family I never got a 441 till 1979 and I still have it. It is parked along side it's younger sister the B50.

Good luck,
Mr Mike

I'll let you know if I agree Mike. I probably will but then again ... I love them all

Heat gun - Boiled several time frozen then boiled again. Ive gotten the rusted rings out of the piston all exept an 1.5 inch piece of the top ring. Back in the freezer and will try again before I go to bed. Trying not to damaage the ring seats with my jeweler screw drivers that I am prying with.. Pain in the arse !!! But its coming along I guess. Progress is progress

I'd look at a Timesert insert for the plug threads. You might have to go with their BigSert version which is made to replace a failed Helicoil. It looks like you have plenty of room for the BigSert if needed without getting too close to the valve seats. I put a BigSert in a Commando head and it was very close to the seat but seems to be working fine. The inserts are available in different lengths, just measure the length of the plug threads. IMHO the Timeserts are a much more positive locking system than either the helicoil wire or insert systems.

Hi Wade , the freezer is a bit slow, a wet rag and a blow torch will give more thermal Shocks per unit time, if you can pin the free ends of the rings in to the slots with a clamp that will help push the rings out, the last bit is tricky, its tempting to lever hard, Ive snapped rings at this point knowing they were never going back.

The freezer bit worked this time. Was able to get my smallest flathead screw driver under the broken ring. When i turn the screwdriver the ring slowly came out . Dont think I hurt the seat at all so I think I have a good piston here :bigt

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the Timeserts as well. Does it require a machinist or is it a home DIY job?

TimeSert can be a DIY job but the kit is pricey (150$). Since you already have the head off it would probably be cheaper to find someone to do it for you.

A little progress. I traded a cool old flat tracker tank for some shop time at Sixth Street and yesterday I did a little more teardown in the basement of the shop. Got the primary side off down to the clutch hub and so far everything looks good. Of course the clutch puller need is smaller then the usual one so cant continue till I get one of those. But the clutch basket and bearings ext. look good so I am not sure why there was so much play when assembled. Primary chain looks good too but once I had the front sprockets off then I noticed that the chain had been rubbing the inner case as if it was not spaced properly. It had the washer behind it but maybe it needs another shim as well. I guess on reassembly I will check chain alignment . It already "clearanced" itself so what ever gives the best alignment will be the way to go I presume.

Clutch plates are aluminum racing type but look ok so I guess I will run them for now. Would not be my first choice though. So the count so far is standing at :

New seals
New front drive sprocket
Clutch puller
shims?
Valves and keepers
valve guides
spark plug hole repair of some sort (or not)
New rings

Get the motor back together then start on the rest of the bike. Mostly clean up , de-rust and polish there. I know I need a chain guard and proper seat . Probably new wiring as well. Now I just need to work so I can buy all this crap.

I'm surprised (but pleased for you) that a shop in a massively high rental area like New York would let you take up their shop space with a project of your own ....

Back in the 70's I was in good with the local Yamaha shop, and they would let me pull my bike over to one outside corner of their shop and do one-day jobs (lending me special tools sometimes too), but no way could I leave a bike there .....

Lannis

They have always had a reputation for "teaching" , "letting them learn", how to work on your own bike. More often then not , someone has a whole bike in the basement for total strip down and rebuild or just a motor rebuild. Space is limited for sure but it surprisingly works. As long as its a respectful " dont interfere with their day to day business" kind of scenario . Indian Larry started out that way. Except he was Harley Larry when he was building stuff in Hugh's basement.

Paul Cox worked there for a spell as well. Others I am sure, but its a real friendly place. I put the tools back where I found them and he even came down and check on my work. We used a home made drilled plate to get the clutch center off. It took both of us to get it done but with his help we got it that far then decided we better get the right tool for the hub.

Fumi gets paid by the project so I try not to ask him for anything unless I have too. Not for help, but simple questions. And I never borrow his tools .

Hugh even brought me tea while I was working. Now that is the Scottish for ya :bigt

Sounds like a great old-fashioned place. It's great that they can afford to be in it somewhat "for the fun of it" and still make a living, 'cause they're never gonna get rich doing that ... !

So many people would LIKE to do that and then realize they have to eat, and they have to get into some kind of grind and dump all the fun stuff ....

Lannis

Teardown complete ... At least as far as I think it needs to go.


Need to source the seal behind the drive sprocket but I think I have the correct other two (front seal and the window plate seal)


The front drive sprocket is a bit worn but in the name of "limited budget" and the fact that it may not get ridden that hard (no long road trips) I may reuse this one

I need to check my rear wheel to see how worn that sprocket is

Well that sprocket will wear a chain out in short order so buy a few chains or change the sprocket.

+1 on replacing sprocket now. Can't be that much for a new one and after changing the rear chain two or three times you'll wish you did because now the engine has to come apart again to replace it.


Bill B...

Good point.... Save now spend later.....

+1 with Kommando and Boomer.
Only thing to do with that sprocket is to give it to Peter Pan for passing on to Captain Hook!

+1
saving £25 by not replacing the sprocket will fukc up a £50 chain in very few miles

If you intend to ride the bike , not take photos of it then fit new new sprockets and buy at least 3 chains.
When you need to adjust the first, swap it for the second one.
Same with the third.
then swap it with the first one which you have washed properly and lubricated while it was off the bike.
Repeat at infinitum.
You most likely will never need to replace a sprocket for the rest of our life.

You don't have to stop at 3, when I war running the SR 500 for work I bought full rolls of chain ( 100 meters ) and made up as many as I could. Thus I could swap the chains weekly and do a "chain day" every now & then washing the chains, leaving them for a full day to dry properly then boiling up in Duckhams Chain Grease abd again allowing them to drain excess oil off before storeage ready for use.

If it rained heavily then that chain got swapped the next day.
I can not remember what the actual chain life I got out of these chains but I do remember I was getting substantially better milage than my fellow couriers who were buying expensive extra heavy duty motorcycle chain and fairly close to the same as those running O ring chain, from heavy duty industrial chain for about 1/4 the price.

Wow Try that routine on 5 or more running bikes a summer.... Good advice if I decided to ride it more then I normally get to ride... Last few years I am lucky to get 2 or 3 hundred miles on a bike in a summer. Blame the bloody house projects for that. Told the misses that once the kitchen is done then Im done. No more house projects !! :footdown

Made more progress in stripping down the Victor. Also got loads of photos of a restored one at Mid Ohio. Frame is off to the painters now.

yeah, sure sure sure

Mine needs this area reworked before paint




That is a sample I photographed at Mid Ohio.

A lot more photos of that bike in this thread if anyone needs reference photos

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=659670#Post659670

I mean it !!! ( Till I am told differently )

Ready to put this motor back together and just finished reading the Rupert book. How many people have done the Breather upgrades mentioned in his book. Drilling holes through the Primary side crankcase seems like ..... well .... ..... Im not racing this thing .... is it necessary? What other upgrades have you done or not done and why?

Doing the B50 breather modification is not necessary on your 441. My favorite upgrade is to replace the clutch with a B50 clutch that uses a thrust washer. That is perhaps the most useful thing you can do to the engine assuming you have replaced the bearings, oil seals, freshened the bore and rebuilt the head, and have gone through the gear cluster and replaced the rounded off gears first.

Peter

Yep doing those things Peter.

This project is moving slower then I had planned due to cash flow issues. Waiting 90 days or more to get paid sometime puts me so far behind I feel like Im never gonna get caught up.

One mod I may add later (since I dont have the parts) is add the primary chain tensioner..... I think I can do that the next time Im in that side of the motor.... Unless the parts appear sooner then later....

Seems the tensioner only came on Victor Roadster and Shooting Star models..... Not the Enduro

Maybe I'll do the B50 clutch then as well.....

Adding a primary chain tensioner is a great thing to do. Almost all the 66 and 67 (and 1968 I believe) primary covers I come across are trashed on the bottom where the primary chain chewed through the alloy bosses at every case screw mount along the bottom of the cover. Later B44 and B25 covers rarely have the chewed up insides after the introduction of the tensioner. You will have to replace the studs and add a spacer and the tensioner.

I've done the B50 breather mod on my B44 by drilling the holes in the crankcase as mentioned in the RR manual so that the engine can breathe into the chain-case, however I haven't added an external breather pipe to the chain-case cover as per B50.

My feeling about this modification is mixed, on one hand adding the extra breather holes does help relieve crankcase pressure into the chain-case and helps stop oil leaks, on the other hand the engine oil becomes blackened from the clutch plates fairly rapidly. For the sake of drilling a couple of holes into the crankcases its probably worthwhile but I'm not sure its worth going the extra mile and adding the breather hose to the chain-case cover.

As for other mods, modifying the clutch to 5 plates is a good idea as is adding the the thrust washer. Sureflex friction plates are also recommended to help prevent slip.

Some other mods which I can recommend for the B44:-
- pay attention to 'Preparation of Aluminium Castings' as mentioned in the RR book. I found that de-burring gasket faces, counter sinking stud holes and extreme cleanliness paid off, I have virtually no oil leaks.
- use an oil filter in the return oil line, I found that the Norton type filters were a bit too large for the limited oil flow on the B44. I'm now using an Magnefine inline Filter intended for auto transmission applications, this is a small filter & magnet combined and works well.
- for the gearbox output bearing use one with a seal on the outer side. Used in conjunction with the original oil seal, oil leaks from the gearbox sprocket can be eliminated
- fit an alloy sump plate with magnetic drain plug and change the mounting studs for socket caps using helicoil's thread repairs as this is often a common area for leaks. The drain plug is useful for emptying the sump when the bike has been left standing for a while (wet sumping)
- replace all rocker cover studs with socket caps and helicoil the original threads. This will help ensure the rocker cover can be adequately tightened and stop oil leaks.
- make sure you use a copper head gasket which is thick enough (1mm ?) some of the pattern head gaskets are too thin resulting in oil leaks from the cylinder head. Also worth using a tiny smear of high temp silicone on the head gasket to stop leaks around the drain holes and pushrod tunnel.
- if you get a rebore done, make sure the engine shop uses a coarse hone (150-180) as this is needed to help bed in the cast iron rings.

Hope this helps.

Did my first 3 angled valve job on the head the other day. Under Hugh's supervision of course. New valve guides too, to go with the new valves. The gasket set I got from Baxters at the Mid Ohio swap meet was for a square barrel so that stopped me from making progress getting the barrel and piston on. (they did assure me it was the right set when I bought it) Also I accidentally ordered standard rings but needed rings for a .50 japanese piston which I think translates to 20 over. I could drive a truck through the ring gap. So new rings / circlips and base gasket and head gasket arrived at the shop yesterday. I hope to have the top end back together this week if everything is right this time. Once the painter get the frame sorted out then I can start putting this bad boy back together.

Very nice.

That Mid-O bike sure looks nice.

So tuesday I spent some time in the shop working on the motor. Finishing up the head so I'd have it ready when I need to bolt down the cylinder. I had new cups and springs to go with the new valves and guides. Turns out that the bottom cups (made in England) dont fit the new springs or even my old springs. And they wouldn't even fit over the new guides either. So I used the new top cups with my old bottom ones and my old springs which seemed to be OK. So basically I just replaced the things I needed to, to go back to stock valve train instead of the lightened one that was in my motor.



Piston went on really easy without even needing to heat it up. I replaced the clip that I removed with a new one . The one I never took out I left alone.

Then the next task was getting the barrel on .

Top two rings were no problem even with just me fingers. But that freaking oil ring was a nightmare. I think I tried it 300 times . Even once I started using a ring compressor it just would not let me win.





I finally gave up and asked Fumi to help me. He used the same tools as me. He did the same technic as me. He had the same trouble as me. BUT after only 5 tries he got the better of the rings and the barrel slipped over.




Then it was a matter of tightening it all down and moving onto the Rocker cover


First time the rocker cover went on really easy. But while tightening it down I realized that one of the studs was striped out and would need to be fixed. So that was it for me for that day.