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#602312 06/01/15 8:20 am
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Hi all,

I am putting stock exhaust on my bike, and the header pipes don't fit tightly into the head. I'm wondering if there is supposed to be some sort of spacer that fits between the head and the header pipe. My concern is that cold air could get drawn in if the pipe isn't seated tightly...

Another issue I'm having is getting the tips to line up in the back. Once I tighten everything down, the right tip is higher and sticking out to the right side. I tried adjusting the tips, but I figured out that the header pipe support on the right side (the one that attaches to the engine), was too short, which placed the end of the header pipe too close to the bike, and made the tip stick out; as there is no side to side adjustment for the exhaust.

I should also note that I have the exhaust without the connector pipe.

Thanks folks, I appreciate the help.

Matt


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1 That's the way the pipes fit into the head there is no spacer

2 I suspect a large part of the problem is the you have do not have a the crossover pipe. Another is the pipe could be aligned or bent incorrectly.

K


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Originally Posted by ashbroom
I am putting stock exhaust on my bike, and the header pipes don't fit tightly into the head. I'm wondering if there is supposed to be some sort of spacer that fits between the head and the header pipe.


If it is the standard push-in type, then there's no spacer although "push-in" generally means knock-in with a rawhide mallet.


Originally Posted by ashbroom
My concern is that cold air could get drawn in if the pipe isn't seated tightly...


Apply clear slicone sealant before assembly.


Originally Posted by ashbroom
I am putting stock exhaust on my bike,

I should also note that I have the exhaust without the connector pipe.


Well, it can't exactly be "stock" if there's no connector/balance pipe?

ashbroom #602327 06/01/15 10:02 am
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There was no knocking it in, it just fits in with about 1/16" to 1/8" of wiggle room... So it should fit snugly, not loose... Which means that the pipe is the wrong size... I'll get a pic of it tonight when I get home... I see in the parts manual that where the header pipe fits into the head, the pipe is flared, which would require a few taps to get it in the head, mine has no flare, just straight pipe...

I would rather not use silicone, unless it's the standard way of installing it. I don't see that in the repair manual, however the paragraph and a half on the exhaust isn't terribly descriptive...

I was under the impression that the bike was sold both ways, with and without the connector pipe, no?


Matt

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ashbroom #602332 06/01/15 10:39 am
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Originally Posted by ashbroom
I see in the parts manual that where the header pipe fits into the head, the pipe is flared, which would require a few taps to get it in the head, mine has no flare, just straight pipe...


I wouldn't pay too much attention to the fine detail of the parts book drawing, the push-in pipes are normally straight 1.3/8" O/D tube.

http://britishbikebits.com/catalog/product/gallery/id/825/image/1591/

http://www.SteadfastCycles.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6234

Originally Posted by ashbroom
I would rather not use silicone, unless it's the standard way of installing it. I don't see that in the repair manual


OK, fair enough, I know it's not in the manual-so assemble without sealant by all means, but if you get fed up with the backfiring on the overrun at least you'll know what to do to stop it. (I'd use it on the pipe-silencer joints too)

Originally Posted by ashbroom
I was under the impression that the bike was sold both ways, with and without the connector pipe, no?


No, not to my knowledge. Do you see any alternative exhaust listed in the parts book?


Last edited by L.A.B.; 06/01/15 10:54 am.
ashbroom #602340 06/01/15 11:04 am
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what bike are we talking about?

L.A.B. #602345 06/01/15 11:18 am
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
OK, fair enough, I know it's not in the manual-so assemble without sealant by all means, but if you get fed up with the backfiring on the overrun at least you'll know what to do to stop it. (I'd use it on the pipe-silencer joints too)

I assume that, since you said that, there will be backfiring without the silicone? smile If that's the case, I'll get some.

Originally Posted by L.A.B.
No, not to my knowledge. Do you see any alternative exhaust listed in the parts book?

Very good point L.A.B., I do not see the parts in the book...

Anglo, I have a '77 Tiger.


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ash -

When I reinstall my exhaust system (stock w/crossover), I freeze the header pipes, then when I'm ready to install, gently heat the head around the exhaust ports....after everything is in place (headers/crossover/silencers) I tighten from back to front. Before I tighten the L-brackets on the headers, I drive them into the ports with a large rubber mallet. I tighten the crossover pipe last.

If you have popping on the overrun, you could always loosen the cooling fins on the pipe and run a bead of silicone around the ports/pipes after the fact. Use the clear stuff tighten the cooling fins and no one will know it's there except you. wink

Steve


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ashbroom #602352 06/01/15 11:44 am
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Just put mine back on a few weeks ago - one side was a loose fit and over the last riding season had deposited a fair amount of soot around the head fins 77 Bonneville

I used silicone that was silver in color -- and after snugging up the round clamp -- the one that doesn't do anything but sit there - you can barely see the silicone - and it's air tight -- no more exhaust leak.

I do have a balance pipe and it does do a lot in terms of making a solid connection of the pipes to the head.

I think of the whole exhaust and the frame hangers as one structure which you assemble and then tighten onto the head by tapping it into place with a rubber mallet here and then there until it wont' tighten any more, is seated in the spigots (the sound of the mallet changes when it seats), and lined up with all the hangers. The you tighten up all the clamps and nuts and hangers so that nothing can move and the whole exhaust system is in effect clamped onto the motor.

If it had been installed this way every time, the vibration might not have taken hold and hollowed out the spigots. But it sounds like it wasn't -- Silicone should fix that.

I've broken exhaust mounts because the pipes and muffler were loose. I don't know whether you can get them tight enough without the balance pipe.

Aren't there different types of spigots that can be put on by a machinist that make a stronger connection?


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I'm going to have to get a picture. There is no tapping to get the pipes in the head, just just go in... There is literally maybe an 1/8" gap...

Originally Posted by Pete J 77T140
Aren't there different types of spigots that can be put on by a machinist that make a stronger connection?

Spigots?


Matt

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ashbroom #602359 06/01/15 12:13 pm
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Originally Posted by ashbroom
Originally Posted by Pete J 77T140
Aren't there different types of spigots that can be put on by a machinist that make a stronger connection?

Spigots?


There are modifications to fix the push-in pipe arrangement, or adapt it to push-over pipes (or the head can be machined to take the push-over exhaust pipe stubs which is what the factory eventually went back to for 1980 smile ) although it could mean buying another set of push-over pipes and exhaust rings.


http://triumphbonneville.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product13.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-750...08915911?vxp=mtr&hash=item541fb088c7

ashbroom #602364 06/01/15 12:33 pm
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The ebay item may be what I need. I need to get measurements first, to make sure I am getting the right adaptor... I mean spigot. I'm using the word spigot for that part from now on smile


Matt

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Your bike should have the crossover pipe.
This improves the performance by allowing both pipes to function on both cylinders
The cross pipe also braces both sides and holds the pipes together.

Your head may be worn by badly fitted pipes in the past. What you can do is fit spigots which is an engineering solution, or fit the T140 shop seals that use a collar tapped into the cylinders. There is a copper olive as a seal

Or use silicone as suggested, with the possibility of gently making the ends of your pipe slightly larger

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In order to use the E-bay item you will need to purchase new pipes as they WILL NOT FIT the pipes you are using. Those spigots are intended to reduce a pipe end as on a T120 or VERY late T140 that fits over the threaded insert. If you purchase new pipes get them for the 1980 up T140. T120 650 pipes can be used but they will hit the right passenger footrest area. Regardless you will still have the leak with the spigots. This stuff (spigots) was Crap when I was selling it 30 plus years ago its still crap.

The ONLY real fix is to have threaded inserts done to the head with late model pipes.

Do as you like its your scoot.

K


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Originally Posted by AngloBike
Your head may be worn by badly fitted pipes in the past. What you can do is fit spigots which is an engineering solution, or fit the T140 shop seals that use a collar tapped into the cylinders. There is a copper olive as a seal

I think the head is fine. There were spigots attaching the aftermarket exhaust (I believe it was either 1-3/4" or 2" pipes, going into a single drag pipe on the right side), and they were in there pretty snuggly, though made of aluminum.

Also, shop seals/collar? That would work fine, that's what I've seen on other bikes ('73 Yamaha). Whats a copper olive?

Originally Posted by KADUTZ
In order to use the E-bay item you will need to purchase new pipes as they WILL NOT FIT the pipes you are using. Those spigots are intended to reduce a pipe end as on a T120 or VERY late T140 that fits over the threaded insert.

I have new pipes that I'm trying to fit up now. I believe they are 1-3/8" pipes, and like I said, there is something like an 1/8" gap, that really doesn't look correct...

This is where I ordered the pipes from:

http://www.classicenglishmotorcycles.com/header-pipes-without-cross-over-pipe-71-3755-71-3758/

Though, their website is different now than when I ordered the pipes a few months ago. The pipes I have look exactly like the pictured pipes, I believe they are the push in 1-3/8" pipes.


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http://triumphbonneville.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/Bonneville%20Exhaust%20pipe.html

An olive is a sacrificial gland that is deformed in use and seals a gap.
If you have ever used a compression fitting in plumbing or some hydraulics then you will be familiar with a fitting, a soft metal ring, and a sealing nut.

I would suggest measuring your head and pipes as it is possible that your pipes are just wrong, or you are expecting too good a seal.

I have used gun gum exhaust putty in the past but now use silicone and it is fine. When you fit the roses the silicone is not visible and it is far easier to remove than exhaust putty

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That's not what I thought it was... I see, that is what L.A.B. posted, I just didn't realize it was called that; I'm bad with terms. I get it from my dad, who is a truck driver, constantly calls his swing arm a fifth wheel...

This is what I was thinking of:

https://www.mikesxs.net/product/43-1875.html


I would rather have custom pipes made than to tap my heads, especially for $120 plus shipping over the pond.

I'll post pics a little later today.

Last edited by ashbroom; 06/01/15 3:02 pm.

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[Linked Image]

Here is the gap I was talking about. It's the same on both sides. I supposed I could fill it with silicone, but I would think that having a way to center it in the head would be preferable.

Do you think I could mic the head and get the pipe flared on the end to fit? What would that do to the chrome?


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I've never found that push-in pipes need knocking in with anything, they've always just slid into the ports. But 1/8" clearance does seem excessive. No harm at all in using clear silicone as a sealant. If you've got the standard finned 'clamps', they'll cover any excess silicone that squishes out (if you can;t be bothered to trim it off).

I wouldn't worry about losing the balance pipe. The principal effect of these was merely to help keep exhaust noise down, they didn't give any performance benefit (in fact they may have slightly reduced performance if similar items on round-fin Guzzis is anything to go by, though a few owners swore blind the balance pipes were essential). A side effect was that they helped keep the pipes rigid, so without one, you'll need to take extra care over your downpipe fixing brackets and silencer brackets.


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You can take your pipes to an exhaust shop, and have them stretched/ expanded until they fit the head better. It's a fast and cheap process.

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What does that do to the chrome? That was my thought, take it and make it fit snuggly.

Since I need it ready for Road America this weekend, I'm going to silicone it for now, and have it fixed properly once I get back, but before Vintage Motorcycle days. laugh



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a 77 would have had a push in pipe, balance pipe, brackets to hold it to the front engine mounts and the silences on their mounts, keeping it all solid.

I will measure an old set of pipes at home from my 79 for comparison with yours, hopefully i will remember

I would have thought that 1/16 on each side wasn't too bad. But you do need a filler material and a rose to hide it.
I don't know if somehow connecting the roses by using the bottom adjusters facing inwards and a tie-rod to join them would be a possibility

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That is an accurate description of what would have been stock.

Based on this thread, the filler material will be silicone, until I get the pipes flared properly.

I have the rose, it just isn't shown in the pic, it's been slid down the pipe. I could make a joiner between the roses, however, I don't know how much strength it would give them, as the screw that tightens the rose on the pipe is a #10. May be worth a shot though.


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Quote
Another issue I'm having is getting the tips to line up in the back.


The pipe bracket 70-6857 comes in two conditions. The one for the 650 the long leg is 3 1/2" to the center of the hole and the 750, with the smaller diameter pipe, is 3 3/4"" (both parts sold under same part number). Fitting the wrong bracket will change how the pipes align to the motorcycle.

It is common for the hole in the cylinder head to wear on high mileage bikes where the pipe was a loose fit in the head. Curiously there is no evidence of exhaust gas leaking on your head!!! When exhaust gases leak here the face of teh head where the rose sits is covered with carbon.

Many of these heads have a chamfer at the leading edge. Often they are off center making it look like the hole is over size. Before you head off to the muffler shop accurately measure the pipe and the head. If you just charge ahead and stretch the pipes you could end up with more problems than you presently have. "Measure twice - cut once!"

The rose is for decoration and has no mechanical function. They break easily!

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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

So I got everything bolted up, I was about to silicone seal it, but I thought, hey, let's see how it sounds, let me kick it over once. Well, the effing kickstarter lever hits my new exhaust, and scratched it......... WTF!?!?!?

What's going on? Anyone? The company I bought it from isn't responding.....

I'm pretty upset right now... Help.... Please...


Matt

'77 Triumph Tiger
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