Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Bsa bulletin board Still burning oil - considering parking it

A while back I posted in regards to the oil consumption by my 68 Spitfire. Well, I tore into the motor and verified that the breather is intact and functional. I replaced the seal behind the alternator rotor, had the cylinders measured and honed, and fit a new set of Hastings rings, new head gasket, new Champion plugs, and filled with 30w mineral oil (Joe Gibbs Driven br-30).

On start up, the prognosis looked good. I was able to set the timing quickly and headed out for a quick warm up ride. I noticed a bit of smoke when taking of from a stop but assumed it was all part of bedding in the rings. As I rode the smoking on the right side became especially noticeable on closed-throttle deceleration. Within 15 miles, the right plug fouled and the bike started sputtering really bad at higher rpm (over 3500). Put in a NGK plug I had on hand and started heading back. Within a dozen miles, the NGK plug started fouling.

I'm so frustrated that I'm thinking of draining the fluids and parking it in a corner indefinitely.

If not a crankcase pressure or ring issue, what else could cause this?
What else would cause an issue this bad on only one side (plug on the left looks perfect)?
Too much oil pressure at the head? (guides and valves were done last year)
A plugged up oil tank vent?
A right-side rod with the oiling hole? (unlikely, since Carrillo rods are used)
Leaky head gasket? (head and barrel were milled last year, but maybe a bolt is bottoming out)

I'm looking for any simple thing I might have overlooked, because if I have to pull the jugs off that thing one more time it's getting turned into a couch in the corner of my basement.

Smoking on deceleration usually means the oil is coming down through a valve guide. The valve guide or guides could be worn, or oil return passages are blocked such that a lot of oil is pooling around the valves.

Most likely oil is seeping between the outside of the valve guide an the head.Either intake or exhaust guides can do this.It's normally caused by removing dirty guides without cleaning them first,and damaging the head in the process.
The smoking usually becomes noticable about a minute after start up.

You can use some sealant under the valve spring seats and around the guides,to stop oil leaking through the head.

Did you use sealer around the drain holes in the head gasket? Composition or copper?

Hi

When you check the exhaust valve oil drain holes are not blocked, have a look at where the drain starts in the head, I've seen some which are quite high. This can cause the oil level to be high before it even start to drain. In the past I've used dremmel type tools to lower the drain point to the bottom of the spring chamber.

John

I'd say valve guides. I found my only to smoke whe pulling way from a standstill when the guides were worn.

I'd send the head away and have it properly overhauled. Saves trying the small stuff and wasting a lot of time.

Another possibility, if the oil pump is leaking at the join it would probably wet sump after a while but also it could pump/spray oil into the T/side over oiling the R/h piston. The case has a deflector I imagine to restrict the oil coming out the bush over oiling the R/H bore, more oil getting thrown up could cause smoking like when they wet sump but primarily it would effect the R/H cyl.

Thanks for the input. I guess I'll be taking the head off tonight and checking the drain holes. I don't have a tool to remove the valve springs so I'll have to borrow one.

The things I've done, related to the head, to try and address this are (it's been ongoing for a couple of years):

Valves and guides replaced (done professionally which, I assume, means done right)
Head and barrel resurfaced
Head gasket with and without o-rings
Head gasket with and without copper sealant (the spray-on copper coating)
Motor with and without oil filter (head oiling was bypassing the filter)

Is there a simple way to eliminate the guides as a potential suspect? I don't mind the smoking (within reason) but the fouling spark plugs makes the bike unrideable. As I mentioned before, I'm so frustrated with it that I'm no longer willing to keep trying things at random, then parking it for a month when that fails, then trying something else. With the money I've spent on this thing without success I could have probably picked up a nice Ironhead Sportster project.

The only thing you did not mention is what grade of plugs you were using.
Modern fuel ( which is not petrol) usually requires a hotter plug, up at least 1 grade if not two .
I had a funny one on the way back from the (Aust ) BSA national rally, on a long fast sweeping bend I backed of the M20 ( so timing would have been wrong ) for about 300 meters and when I reopened the throttle, nothing motor was stone dead.
We did not look at it just tossed it onto the trailer. Problem, fouled plug and that was after about 300 km so it & the motor were quite hot.
Smoke on deceleration is generally oil being sucked into the cylinder ( as already mentioned ).
It can be coming down the guide or around the guide or even through a crack and I have even seen one sucking oil from the head gasket

my newly done A10 motor did similar ... really drove me nuts ... eventually I determined that the wonderful NEW rings (oil) were actually out of round and not scraping the oil off the cylinder properly ,, I determined this because there was no other explanation and the bike was going real well.


... rather than tear it down again I just decided that I would get some miles on it first and see if it improved ... it gradually started smoking less but continued to foul plugs (after 800 or so miles), man I was pleased I has a gas torch to burn the plugs clean rather than buy new ones every time ...recon I would have literally used 40 plugs!.. like every time I went on the A10 I took 4 plugs and a plug spanner.

I put in NGK number BH5 (a way hotter plug) and at least he fouling has stopped (touch wood)

If I were you I would try 2 grade hotter plugs first and see if that helps.

Clean around the top of the guide with brake cleaner,and put some silicone sealant around the guide under the spring collar.

While you're in there,sharpen the tops of the guides like a pencil (about 120 degrees included angle) to remove any chamfer on the guide bores.A chamfer will collect oil,and the oil will leak down the guide and valve stem (which you don't want).

You wouldn't be the first one to have guides professionally replaced,but leaking between the guide and head.

It's funny you mention that because that's what I've told my wife: except for the smoke, man that bike runs good.


I've tried Champion N3C and, most recently, N4C but I believe that's actually a colder plug. I'll need to research that. The NGK I ran temporarily on the right side was the B8ES.

I'm thinking one I get the spring out I'll plug the drain hole and fill the cavity with Marvel Mystery Oil; not high enough to go down the guide, but it's thin enough that if it's leaking there it will show.

On a related note, I can see that the exhaust valve will be dirty from the burning oil even if it's not the one leaking. What about the intake valve? I'm assuming if it's not leaking the valve will be relatively clean. Am I mistaken? Is there enough overlap from exhaust to intake that it would dirty the intake valve as well?

If it is the guides or a crack in the head maybe what you could try, is temporarily stopping the oil supply to the head by clamping the rubber feed tube. Don't do this for more than a minute or so or damage may occur. With the oil feed suspended, if the smoke reduces then this shows the problem is related to guides or a crack in the head.

IM also wondering if you have the rocker box oil feed reducing split pin fitted? This should be visible just after the rocker oil feed inlet and is designed to reduce oil supply to the rocker box.

Some other areas to think about:-
- although you have new Hastings rings, have they bedded in and what plateau finish was used on the cylinder walls? When running in there is a small window of opportunity to get it done, immediately after first start-up. The procedure should be a to run the bike up a steep hill several times with a big handful of throttle. This procedure causes high cylinder pressures and forces the rings against the cylinder walls resulting in a good seal. Anything less such as idling for long periods before a good blast may cause glazing, a poor seal and high oil consumption.
- I wonder if your sump is filling with oil and not being completely scavenged? I recently had a similar smoking issue on my A65 which was cured after I drained the oil from the sump via the magnetic drain plug. I found the magnet to be completely covered with ferrous sludge which may have obscured the oil scavenge. Its also possible that the magnet prevented the scavenge ball valve from fully opening.

Anyway just my tuppence worth.

+1 for rings not seated, or bent during installation.

The reason I'm doubtful of rings is that this is the third or fourth set of rings since this all started (I lost count) and that I'll never be able to get them to seat if the plugs foul out every 15 miles. There's no way that's normal for bedding in rings.

my added thoughts to the good advise given ... When piston reassembly, insure you are not slathering both with oil. If you do this some of the oil is trapped between the rings which bakes to a sluidge or carbon 'glaze' preventing proper ring seating.

Always insure you are correctly fitting the rings. John Healy had a good explanation of this in a recent issue of the Vintage News. All of us need to subscibe for the important tid bits of knowledge you'll pick up in this great publication.

The correct assembly procedure is to lightly oil the bore and then with a clean 'dry' cloth wipe as much oil off the cylinder as possible. With the rings dry smear a small amount of lube on the the piston skirt.
Then follow Gunners correct advise on breaking in. Do Not allow the newly assembled engine to idle too long on first start up thinking you are 'being kind' to the engine.
These are merely not my ideas, but proven by many many engine builders. Do it right and you'll never have a wiff of oil smoke in the exhaust.

MarcB
man that does sound excessive... if you've had 4 sets of rings in there then perhaps the bore itself is not 100% true ? does the bore show any uneven wear pattern ? In the case of out of round bore you would get longitudinal "sections" which differ in "pattern" ie you might have a stip(s) with is more shiny than the rest or strips that show more of the honing pattern ?

the only real way to tell is do a series of accurate measurements looking for ovality. And or put piston and just oil rings into bore and shine a real strong light under it ... if you can see light there's your prob, repeat with just one comp ring on no oil ring etc

what is the compression like hot? how many mile total has that bore done, since a rebore not just a hone?

sorry to say but 4 sets of rings in one bore (even if honed between sets) does raise alarm bells

it does sound worse than what I described with my A10 as at least with the problematic A10 once it was up and running it didn't foul , one run was 180 miles without incident and $%^%&*ing thing fouled on start up the next #$%^^ing day

still recon way hotter plugs is worth a shot, and way easier than another pull down

a valve guide would need to be REALY bad to cause the problem to the extent you have said

There's a very good (but long) thread discussing rings, honing and break in procedures, see This Link , hopefully reading through this should help you find answer to your oil consumption problem and it certainly has some good advise.

My

As I mentioned some weeks ago I found some damage to my piston bore ( left pot) from cold it ended up consuming so much oil it looked worse than a 2 stroke, and the more miles I did the worse it got, it had consumed about 2 litres of oil over 200 miles!!! Once warm it didn't burn any more and ran a lot cleaner.

Anyway for various reasons I got another barrel instead of having mine rebored. Not done any mileage as such yet but there is no smoke at all now.

It's worth mentioning that too rich of mixture can wash the bores clean and give premature bore life, using the wrong grade of oils ( those with friction modifiers) will glaze the bore before the rings bed into it.

Your smoke, it it blue or black (/grey) ?? Blue is oil, black is rich fuel mixture.

Using the wrong grade of plug is no cure for anything, using something like an N5 where an N3 should be fitted is not going to fix the problem, it might burn a little cleaner... It might also cause pinging and poor running. I've found poor running first off, and never give it chance to ping.

To cure the problem you need to fix the problem. Take the head off, send the pistons to BDC ( bottom dead centre) and look at the bore in the day light, what colour is it? Uniform grey ?- then it's run in well and don't touch it.
Straw coloured yellow? - then that's glazed my friend and all that yellow is baked on oil, you need a hone in the least and possibly new rings.
Are the rings good?? Do they show signs of buring, or any other markings?

If the bore and rings are good, check the head gasket surface is flat with a (good and clean) steel rule. Both these are known to warp. If those are good the it might be time to look at valves and guides. A good cylinder head shop can do wonders :bigt

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'sump level will be high'. How do I check this, and how high is high? I've never drained more than, I don't know, a cup out of the sump. Usually a bit dribbles out after the plate breaks loose, then whatever is left in the plate makes up about a cup, I'd say.

Would wet sumping affect the right side more than the left? I'm guessing that's possible since the oil flow terminates on the left so that side may be designed to expect more oil that the pump side.

I will say that the first few times I've ran the bike low on oil I fully expected to drain a quart or more out of the bottom end. But that never happened. It was all lost to the atmosphere.

Oil leaking around an exhaust guide can get sucked into the intake port during valve overlap,especially at idle when there is high vacuum in the intake port.
Just seal all the valve guides.

Just in case you're still looking for that valve spring compressor here's one I made earlier....

(Note, remove corks from all required bottles of wine before starting!)



Cheers,
Bernie

Ha! I've used tools to open up bottles in the past, but never the other way around.

Allan Gill ..."Using the wrong grade of plug is no cure for anything, using something like an N5 where an N3 should be fitted is not going to fix the problem, it might burn a little cleaner... It might also cause pinging and poor running. I've found poor running first off, and never give it chance to ping. "

All I can say is that using 2 grade hotter plugs has stopped them fouling on my A10... it is running very well and very slowly the rings are bedding in and the smoke is lessening, infact it has almost stopped now with a couple of additional reasonably long runs. Mind you the A10 is only 6.5:1


Bernie... your a genius... looking for that cork screw as we speak, I take it you are just using a long piece of bar or similar held in the chuck to bear on the valve head?

From the looks of it, the ring of the corkscrew is forced down against the top of the spring, freeing up the retainers (keepers). Ingenious.

I also love that the remnants of the corkscrew are pictured, for reuse later (without the missus finding out).

Replacing them is one thing but has the correct hone, oil and run in procedure been used?

If you follow the link I posted earlier, John Healey has some excellent advise on all of this, the main points being:-
- if you use original grey cast iron rings (e.g. hepolite), the cylinder must be honed using a grit between 150 to 220. This is coarse enough to allow the rings to bed in.
- modern rebore shops often dont understand this and use a much finer finish which results in poor seating.
- you should use a running in oil or oil with an API grade of SF or less. Modern oils and synthetics are too slippery to allow bedding in of rings.
- dont cover the rings and piston in oil when assembling, just a very slight smear on the cylinder is sufficient
- running in should be performed immediately after first start-up by a good hard ride, dont idle the engine or ride gently it needs a hard run to seat the rings.

I once rebuilt a B44 which experienced similar plug fouling and very smoky exhaust. For the initial build I used synthetic oil and tried gentle running in which was a mistake. I changed the rings several times using JCC and Hepolite to no avail. It was only after I rehoned the bore with 150 grit, used a dry assembly on the rings, classic 20w50 oil and performed a hard run in that I managed to get the rings to seat.

[RANT]
Guys, I'm done replacing rings. I tried Hastings and Total Seal rings. I had the cylinders checked and re-honed by a very knowledgeable local guy (he used to do the cylinders for Don Hutchinson). I cleaned and scrubbed them until I could eat off of them. I put just a dab of oil on the piston skirts. I filled it with 30w break-in mineral oil. Still, it burns enough oil as to be un-usable.

Unless someone is willing to replace the rings and do all the work for free to prove that I'm not doing it incorrectly, it's not the damn rings. I'm not trying to be an a** but I find it hard to believe that, unless all the stars are aligned on the second full moon of a summer month, then the rings won't seat. If that were true there would be way more A65s ending up with fouled plugs every 15 miles. People honing by hand with ScothBrite and using paper clips for rings are having more luck than I am. It's not the damn rings.
[/RANT]


So, if not the rings then what?

Valve guides? That is a possibility. I'm trying to devise a way to test that so as not to have to throw any money at it. Other than sealing around the guides and hope for the best, any other ideas?

Wet sumping? Can't think of a good way to check that? Run it without the plate in place?

Anything else?

Don't forget to sharpen the tops of the guides like a pencil,to remove any trace of a chamfer on the guide bore.
Other than that,you can only fit size 010 Viton O-rings into the top spring collar before you drop the collets in.That will stop oil draining through the spring collar,and down the valve stem.

rather than rebuilding you own head,see if you can find another decent used head ,as long as its surface is flat & has useable valves just fit it & see if it cures it or its the same.if its the same maybe you are being a bit gentle running it in ,i had a similar issue with blow by on my a 65.i honed it with a course oilstone hone & assembled it dry .started it & went for a run not caning it but riding normaly not shifting early etc.it fixed it .now there a bit precious we are being a bit overly gentle on them sometimes.
or if your truly sick of it ,box it up & i will gladly pay for shipping it over to me ,maybe its getting homesick HAHA

MarcB..... "From the looks of it, the ring of the corkscrew is forced down against the top of the spring, freeing up the retainers (keepers). Ingenious."

Yep I see that but I was wondering if he had a bar or something bearing on the valve head , or what he was using to stop the whole head moving when he cranked against the spring? as he whole thing would be sitting on an angle ...a couple of wooden wedges would do it I guess .


if you've had the bore checked over and ok by expert that seems to answer that ...

you would need to be real unlucky to get 4 out of round ring sets in a row so we can probably forget that one.

when you got the new guides fitted maybe they damaged (or cracked) the bore they locate in? One thing for sure it would need to be a major prob with guides to give the amount of smoke you are talking about.

Having just reread the thread I noticed you mentioned you are using Joe Gibbs BR30 break in oil. I checked on the web and this oil is actually a 5W30 multigrade which strikes me as being very thin for use on an A65 especially when cold.

Whether this is an issue or not is debatable but I can envisage a scenario where a very thin 5w30 oil is sucked into the cylinders on the overrun especially if the oil has not reached full operating temp at around 90c.

Maybe you could try using straight 40 or 50 weight oil and see if that helps?

While you may be frustrated, let's look at a few things;

First Total Seal rings have a learning curve, and for some people it can be steep. I watched a noted "Triumph tuner", at least that is what he calls himself, struggle trying to come to grips with Total Seal rings. Because they seal they create a lot of vacuum on the over run and will physically suck oil past the rings and by the intake valves stems. I think it took him a couple of racing seasons before he had no oil coming out of the exhaust pipe on the over run.

Because the intake valve stem is under the most vacuum is there any oil around the valve stem, or inlet guide? Oil can be coming down the stem or past the outside of the guide. When it comes out past the outside of the guide it will usually leave a track you can trace back to the problem area.

Is there oil collecting behind the intake valve?

Is there oil on the top of the piston?

Is there oil collecting in the exhaust pipe?

Is the cylinder bore glazed?

Rings can tell you a lot. If you put a ring in upside down (and with hastings the dot goes up) it will pump oil. When you take the rings out and check the contact face of the ring. If the ring is tapered faced the ring should show a full 360° contact ring starting at the bottom of the ring and going up the face ring about 1/3 of the way.

If the worn (broken in) contact area is at the top, the ring was put in upside down. Also the narrow contact area should be 360° and show full contact. If there are blotches of unworn ring showing anywhere around what should be a shiny contact area the ring was either bent during installation or the cylinder glazed before the ring could seat. To seal the face of the ring must not show any areas where the ring didn't break-in.

Got to go home!

the guides were replaced in an attempt to curb the oil consumption. That's not to say they weren't bad before and made worse by the replacement.

the switch to br30 was an attempt to help the rings seat and curb the oil consumption. Prior attempts were made with straight 50w dyno oil from Drag Specialty.

the use of Total Seal rings was an attempt to curb oil consumption. I've since gone back to Hastings (same as the first set I tried when I suspected the rings originally installed on the NOS pistons were to blame).

One thing to note: the Hastings ring are clearly marked for the top and middle rings, but the oil control ring has no markings for top and bottom. At first, it appears symmetrical across the horizontal line, but a closer look shows that it's not 100% so. I took them back to the guy I bought them from and he stated that it didn't matter which way they went. Any input on that, John?

You may be on to something. These old Brit bikes always seem to run best on those miserable dreary gray days. Once the sun shines they get moody.

This is interesting as this oil has an API grade of SL. In other words, it will contain friction modifiers which wont help bedding in. I believe the general consensus for classic bikes is to use oils which are now considered obsolete with an API grade no higher than SG.

I know how frustrating these issues are and I have been there myself. You just have to keep at it and the forum is here to help.

Would be useful if you had some photos of the head, barrel, pistons, rings etc. Another set of eyes is always handy with this kind of annoying problem.

If you have not tried clamping the feed to the head you are missing a zero cost easy test for identifying the source of the problem.It will take a few miles to burn up oil residues in the motor and exhaust. In the old days motors ran with no oil feed to valves and you are unlikely to cause any damage in 5 miles.If the smoke reduces i would seal around the guides as suggested.Also try running a 40 monograde.

Doesn't the head oiling also server the camshaft? At this point, it's essentially unrideable anyways so it's worth a shot. Won't have a chance to try it until the weekend, but will report if this helped.

I think the oil from the head lubricates the cam followers and, by running through the small holes at the bottom of the recess in the casting, the cam follower/cam lobe interface but I think that cutting the supply for a short while to see if it reduces the smoking sounds like a plan.

Seems in the original service sheets that it was also emphasised to use the right size of split pin in the inlet oilway to regulate the flow correctly - maybe worth checking as if this is missing it could result in over-oiling the inlet rocker and starving the exhaust?

As for the corkscrew, yes I had a plain ended bar (or old valve) in the chuck to bear against the valve face. Once aligned the head can rotate feely whilst the spring is compressed but I found I could hold it fine with just a rag under it to cushion it from the lathe bed bars.

Cheers,
Bernie

The cam and followers are mainly lubricated by the oil slung off the flywheel. There is not enough flow to the rocker feeds to lubricate the cam or followers.

(or at least there shouldn't be)

Also you can check the flow from your head feed when you do this test. If you get anything more than a drip-drip-drip, you're getting too much oil from the line.

Finally, you have checked that the jiggle pin (cotter) is in its hole in the head, right?

Finally got the chance (or will, rather. Not much enthusiasm at this point) for a couple of tests.

1. Pinched the oil line to the head and verified that nothing was flowing that way. Did a 5 mile stint the long way around the block. Results: no difference.

2. Drained the sump once home to check for wet sumping. Results: ~1 ounce of oil in the sump.

One thing to note. I had enough clear road tonight to spend some time looking backward to the left and right side while I rode. The right side *may* be smoking while cruising but the left side doesn't appear to be at all. Cruising at 4000 RPM and rolling off, then back on when it reaches 2500 RPM, both sides send a billow of smoke. Right side is worse, but both sides do it. Only right side has fouled up plugs to date, though.

That break in oil you used says it chemically assists ring bedding in, sounds like it just does not like cast iron rings. The smoking on acceleration is classic ring bypass, I would rehone, new rings and use a cheap 20/50W supermarket oil. That breaking in oil you used sounds good on paper but looks like its not suited to these bikes. If its smoking on deceleration then I would be looking at the top end.

That's funny; I've read the exact opposite. That, if you blip the throttle after decelerating and you get a cloud of smoke, it's valve guides. Now granted I don't think that's the case here because of the fact that I wasn't oiling the head at all tonight and it smoked just as bad as before. My point though, is that for everyone who's 100% sure one thing means one thing, someone swears is the opposite.

My Commando was smoking badly on the left side under acceleration, new rings and a hone cured it completely.



Guides is top end, when I say top end its the head I am referring to.

Oh, I understand that. My point was that I read that the type of smoke I described, where it's mostly obvious after decelerating and blipping the throttle, indicates valve guides. In my case, the behavior I see seems to point at the top end, which is disproved by the fact that the top end wasn't oiled at all during the latest test.

So, going back to the type of oil used. I find this somewhat irrelevant and here's why. I've talked with three local experts about this. 2 British mechanics and my local indy Harley guy (he's the guy I mentioned before who used to do machine work for Don Hutchinson; he did the last hone for me). When pushed for which oil to used for break-in, all seemed surprised at the question and the answer was anything off the shelf that isn't synthetic.

Assuming they are all wrong or they're lying to me, is the outcome of improper ring seating the complete inability to use the machine from fouling of plugs?

They are not wrong, you never use synthetic oil for running in as its just too slippy, the oil you used refers to a chemical additive for ring bedding in, its a guess that this has caused a problem as cast iron rings are ancient and could have been ignored when this oil for formulated. You would only know by ringing up the oil maker and ask them direct.



One of the outcomes yes.

hone it rebuild it dry use a normal cheapo oil & ride it normally ,dont labour it ,let it rev.
whilst you have the barrels off check the ring land dimensions & make sure the rings dont have excessive up & down play.this can cause oil pumping & lots of smoke.has the barrel had new liners ,is one cracked .warm the cylinder up with a blowlamp & watch for a crack or oil seeping from a bore.
these are grasping at straws ideas.if it still smokes just use it hard .it will either bed in or not.

N3C = NGK B8ES Colder
N4C = NGK B7ES Just right
N5C = NGK B6ES Hotter

With Champion plugs between the same plug the higher the number the hotter the plug. NGK goes in reverse for reasons known only to them.

Break in oil: Beno Rodi (factory trained BSA mechanic) uses Walmart Tech 20W50 in the blue jug for break in on all his road bikes. I think he uses Castrol R on his race bikes (judging from the cool smell )

Take the head off and look at what colour the bores are. That will tell you if it's rings without going any further.

Has the head or barrel surface been skimmed and a good annealed head gasket been used?

Shutting down on the throttle will get the engine seeking for something to fill the void, creating a vacuum and pulling oil in from guides, poor head joints and depending on how good your breathing system is, possibly past the rings too. The engine not breathing at the right time will not only increase chances of oil leaks but may hinder the seating of rings.

You could also take the bike to a local garage and as them to perform a leak down test. It will tell if there is good combustion sealing and give an idea where any leak is coming from.


There seems to be a lot of advice and no real effort to sort the problem. So to sound harsh on that but that's what it looks like.

You will never know the answer until you tear it down. To measure is to know. Only John Healy has given this thread any sense of reality.
The fact is the darn thing burns oil like a fry chef on Friday Night.

That's the next step. I was hoping to run as many tests as possible without tearing into it again (or spending any more money) but I'm out of ideas.


Both the head and barrel were planed. Head gasket replaced and annealed / re-annealed multiple times. Plain copper and composite gaskets tried. With and without copper coat sealant. With and without o-rings.


You have to understand that I've been chasing this for 3 years. What may sound like "no real effort" to you becomes a chore when it's the 10th time you've pulled the head (that's 20 re-torque), including one complete teardown to check the breather disk.

Each attempt has the chance of encountering some unforeseen issue while pulling the tank, removing the carbs, etc. Small things like a broken rocker arm spring washer or stripped rocker spindle nut are minor inconveniences on the surface but become frustrating as they can delay completing the work by a week or more.

Add that to the cost of yet another head gasket, possible rocker cover gasket, cylinder base gasket, and pretty quickly the thing takes a backseat to everything else in my life. Re-use those gaskets, you say? The first thing someone will say when I finish the job and the smoking persists is "shouldn't have reused that head gasket".

Interestingly, I called my dad last night for Father's day. He was the original owner of this thing, and he told me he always thought the bike was rotten. He always had more issues with this Spitfire than with any previous or since. I think it may be doomed to spend its remaining days as a piece of art in a corner somewhere. That ironhead sporty is looking better and better.

Strip it and take copious hi res pics of everything, post them all, our eyes see better than our reading ability.

And copper head gaskets can be used numerous times as long as they are annealed each time.

I understand your frustration but the solution is not gonna happen without a tear down. You may have a crack in the barrel, you may have an uneven bore that started at the factory. You may have a re-sleeved cylinder. You may have a crack in the head at the valve guide. The list can go on and on.
Might even be something simple like a loose return spigot in the crank case.
Only a qualified individual can find some of these things. You may have to just turn it over to someone else.

Kommando has good advice: Send us photos.

I have the feeling that you are suffering from too many "experts." You don't need any more expert advice. You need someone who knows what they are doing. Seems simple, but in our current digital world, where diagnosis is done with computer and error codes, the guys that had to actually diagnose these problems using their senses are getting to be few, and far, between.

There are people on this site that KNOW what they are doing and a picture would work wonders.

If you used the machine shop in New Bedford, than you used the same shop as Don is currently using. Other wise you used the one he used to use... He didn't change shops because New Bedford was more convenient.

There is a lot of talk about doing this and doing that, but has anyone who knows what they are doing actually look at the wear pattern on the face of the rings? Has anyone advised you whether the bore was glazed? Has anyone actually looked in the port to see if there is any oil tracking by the guide? Was there oil on the top of the cylinder.

Who advised you to plane the head and cylinder? Did he have a boat payment overdue?

I'm going to derail my own thread because I think this needs to be said. I was going to post privately, but John Healy is over his private PM quota:
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Mr Healy, in a single post you managed to bring into question the abilities of one man, the integrity of another, and the intelligence of a third (myself). Posts like these make guys like me wrap the whole thing under a blanket, put it in a corner, and forget about it for 10 years.

I recently attended the British Motorcycle Meet put on by the BSA Owners Club of New England and, I have to tell you, the BSA showing was piss poor. And, while I'm nearing 40 years old, I was one of the young guys there. I started riding at the age of 23; my first bike was a 1967 Lightning cobbled from mismatched parts of differing years. I joined this forum in 2002... before that I participated in the BRIT-IRON mailing list.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you relate to my 65-year-old father more than you do to me. I'm wouldn't be surprised if, in 10 years when I decide to finally roll out the BSA he passed down to me and that's been collecting dust for longer than it saw sunlight, that the vast knowledge that you hold in your head may no longer be available for my 50-year-old self to get at. And if younger guys like me, what few there are of us, don't gain that knowledge there will be even fewer 40, 30, and 20-year-olds with the ability to keep their grandfather's bikes running the way they were meant to.

Forums like these are treasure troves of valuable information, but they are also a community, and a community needs members to participate if it wants to stay vibrant and relevant. If members stop participating, as I was considering doing after reading your post, the community dies.

I hope you will consider editing the post above to be a bit more constructive, or remove it altogether. If you do, I will remove this as well.
______________________________________________________________________________________________



For those still interested, I've snapped some pictures of the valves, pistons, and cylinder bores. My camera ran out of battery before I could snap shots of the head gasket surfaces and combustion chambers, but I may add those by the time you read this. The right-side valve looks awful, and the head gasket was relatively wet with oil in a few spots (hard to see in pictures). I'm wondering if it's sucking in from there. Any chances that getting the head/barrel milled caused the head bolts to bottom out? Let me know if there's anything specific you'd like pictures of. I haven't taken the barrel off to check the rings because I know that will mean another hone plus rings.

I don't know what JH said that was so bad.

If your bike has a fault, someone did something wrong.

And although John has said some not flattering things about my judgements in the past, he is to a large extent correct.
the biggest problem with open forums is that every one has their own "pet" cure that they search for potential problems that it fits.
And in honesty I must include myself in the above criticism .

He is also correct that the only way to properly ascertain exactly what is the problem is a thorough examination of the offending engine not what the engine is doing.
Otherwise we are just like the GP ( doctor) who listens to you interpretation of your symptoms without bothering to do the basic physical examination then treats you according to past cases.
While this method will suffice most of the times, some times the patient really is chronically ill.

Just about every thing that has been said is good and reasonably correct general information, just how much is relevant to your particular engine is another matter.

If you are going to play with old Pommie iron there are a few tools that you will need which will make your life much easier and No 1 in this case is a compression tester. Wet & dry, hot and cold reading will tell you a lot about how well the rings have bedded in.
IF you can get your hands on an old OXY gauge,they make great leak down testers

I am sure that I am not the only person who has stuffed a ring by twisting it that tiny little bit too much when trying to get it on a piston but it took a long time for me to admit to myself that I was ME and NOT THE RINGS so I graduated to a converted set of external snap ring pliers ( that the tips had broken off ) for fitting rings and my success rate increased greatly. Now that I am a bit older and better educated ( as distinct from being wiser ) I have forked out for a couple of sets of real ring expanders and some real ring compressors ( which I still have not found since the move ) and since doing so ( and gone to dry fitting ) my success rate on re-ring jobs is about 99% ( I still make mistakes ) .
So while you have told us that you have fitted 3 sets of rings, you have not told us HOW you fitted the rings, which is very important.

Way back in the past I used to drop the barrels onto the rings and even with a good pair of ring compressors it was a bit of a hit & miss affair . Then an old racer showed me how to wind the piston up into the barrel, worked much, much better. You can do ( and I have done ) a lot of damage to both the rings & the groves by even the smallest amount of twisting or jambing when dropping the barrels onto the pistons.
Oddly enough there is a video around the traps shot in the BSA factory which shows the engine line and a worker doing just this, winding the piston up into the barrel.

As for casting aspersions on others, I am yet to find a BSA twin that actually needed the barrels decked but there have been a lot where even good decking has given the owners no end of grief and I am not even going to think about how meany perfectly good alloy heads I have seen totally stuffed by way too much good machining let alone those that were a tad off plumb.

Oh and Brit-iron is still around is you are interested and Mike who took over from Falco has started the transition from the listserver to Facebook. And I have been on that list since the late 90's.

"Winding the piston into the barrel." New one on me. Can you explain more fully? That factory video would be great. Maybe this should be a new thread.

I have looked carefully through this thread and see absolutely no justification for the criticism of JH.
In my view he said what he thought. If that offends you then --tough [***]--we are living here in a real Brit bike world.
Think of it as a group of motorcycle enthusiasts having a few pints in the pub---down to earth expressions, stark views but all in a friendly way.
You are fortunate in being able via this forum to access some of the world experts in Brit bikes.
One of the things you have to do is read the responses and then judge their applicability to YOUR problem with YOUR bike.
And on a footnote---from your location you live in MA--you are not too far from where John lives.
Put the bike or the relevant parts in a truck/car and take them over to him.
Talk to him nicely, take a bottle of Bushmills with you and I am sure he will look at the bike/parts and give you his honest view.
A much better way forwards than slagging off someone who is only trying to help?
HTH

Looking at the pics one inlet valve is wet, looking like the guide is leaking oil or oil leaking into the inlet tract. The cross-hatching seems shallow angled but could be the angle the pics are taken from, there are also vertical marks in the barrel bores which look to be wear marks, are you running without air filters?

That's good advice there..
I'm glad to know Mr. Healy likes the Bushmills!
Sure sign of good taste.

Don in Nipomo

Definitely running air filters... could those vertical lines be due to the dry start? I'm not sure how the walls should look after less than 100 miles of running new rings.

I agree that something looks off on that intake valve. Haven't taken the valve out but it feels tights in the guide with the spring attached (previous guides you could wiggle the valve, though barely, by pushing against the top of the spring). I'm suspecting the head gasket / surfaces because of the oil on them. Does oil typically wet the gasket while raising the head off? I'll try to get more pictures online tonight.

I can certainly see oil on the right hand inlet valve and this may explain some of the problem. Where this oil is coming from is a mystery but perhaps what you could try is filling the inlet port with petrol or similar thin fluid and see where it leaks out from. You may find it leaks past the guide head area, valve seat, valve stem or potentially a crack in the head.

Oil on the head gasket could possibly come from the oil drain holes or pushrod area. I usually seal the head gasket using high temp silicone to ensure an oil tight seal.

The bore hone looks coarse enough to help ring bedding, but as Kommando mentions, there are some small scrapes on the cylinder which wont help matters.

Those of us who still do repairs on these old motorcycle should have a sign outside our shop claiming: Small Engine, Vintage Motorcycle and Screen Door Repair. In spite of what many "experts" want to say, these bikes share little of the engineering used in modern engines. We are realy "low tech." The one thing that translates backwards to our engines is the current way valve jobs are done. But the machines that do this work cost between $200,000 and $350,000.

Our old bikes have a hard time fitting in our New Automotive World. Even modern bikes had problems with the current oil offerings. It took 6 years of in fighting between 2000 and 2006 with the Japanese Big Four and the SAE to get a change. In 2006 we got SAE and oil industry acceptance that the current oil was not appropriate for even modern motorcycles. Us old geezers with our 50 year old motorcycles were having similar, and in many cases, the exact same problems as the Big Four: Clutch slippage, ring break-in problems and heavy wear of transmission gears in motorcycles that share engine and gearbox oil (The Triumphs that breath through the primary suffered chain wear and clutch slippage). So nearly all of the major oil manufacturers offer SAE SG JASO MA2. SG oil is the standard that was in effect when most of our motorcycles were made. The JASO MA2 address issues relating to friction modifiers so the clutches won't slip and the rings have a fighting chance of seating. This has gone a long way in solving problems we have been having related to modern oil.

There was a time when every local automotive parts supplier had a machine shop in the back. It was a time when Sunnen marked the box 150 honing stones came in "Finishing". I still have one of those boxes, and copies of Sunnen catalogs listing the 150 grit stone as Finishing. This was NOT in the 1930's, but in the 1960 and 1970's when our motorcycles were being manufactured. Triumph even issued a Service Bulletin in 1970 saying the cylinders should be honed with 150 grit stones. Today, other than in vintage shops that install grey cast iron rings, the only place you are going to routinely find a 150 grit stone is in a lawn mower repair shop. It is a rare machine shop today that has stones any coarser than 280 grit and they are not going to work that consistently in our motors unless you are using steel or ductile rings. And then you need to get the bore within .0002" of being round and the same top to bottom. They do this maintaining Ra figures our grey cast iron rings will never work with!

The few automotive machine shops that still exist, that had neither the funds or training required to upgrade their shops, are struggling to get by. Modern automotive machine shops require over a million dollars of equipment and are held to the strict standards of the "check engine" light on the dash board. It is odd how little of the new engineering practices are backward compatible to old engines... All I can say is you need to "Know" you expert, and as a general statement, if he doesn't have 150, or even 180 grit stones in his shop... pick up your parts and run.

I most respectively disagree!!! A picture of the face will tell more on this subject. Those scrapes can be be from a small seizure, honing grit left over from honing the cylinder, or carbon that has come adrift from the top of the piston. Any way you slice it, it is not something you want to see!

The top of this piston clearly shows signs of detonation.
If you look carefully you can see the striations on the bore.

Surface grit seems awfully smooth for grey cast iron rings and barely cut through the previous glazing.



This plug displays indications that it was running very hot. Look at the threads as they are a witness to the amount of heat in the plug/head. You should see a couple of threads discolored from the heat. The rest should look like they came out of the box. This plug shows at least 7 threads, maybe more. Giving Marc advice to install a grade hotter plug just doesn't sound like that good of an idea. Those are at least 10 to 1 pistons, if not higher.



This is the right intake port. All that oil on the back of the intake valve need further exploration.

In regard to the head, is there a chance that the head is acceptable *except when torqued*, meaning a crack the exacerbates oil leaking to the combustion chamber once installed? Would this be detectable in any way? I've used Marvel Mystery Oil in the past to detect leaks as it's relatively thin and won't evaporate. I'll do this as a quick test, after cleaning up the intake runner.

As JH noted to me privately, there has been some serious ham-fisted work done to this motor. I may be responsible for some, but so-called experts have also done a number on internal parts in the past. That, along with 10.5:1 pistons with less than adequate fuel, and you have a perfect storm of a grenade in the making. If this means going back to basics and reevaluating the parts used, I'm going to have to consider if it's worth it. I have a good amount invested in it already, but at some point you need to cut your losses.

You owe Mr Healy an apology! I am shocked he is still trying to help!

A few more pictures posted. Pulled the valve out and I have a mix of brake cleaner and ATF (to slow evaporation and add color) sitting around the top of the guide. From the top, everything looks fine. Looking up, though, there's a decent-sized cavity at least a millimeter deep.



The head gasket, meanwhile, showed oil on both the top and bottom at the right rear stud. It doesn't really show up in pictures. On the left side, though, the gasket looks burnt compared to the right side. I supposed it may be normal for it to burn like that; the right side is simply cooled by the oil and hasn't had a chance to 'cook':





I'm not sure how/why the guy who did the guides last year, when I brought the head in, didn't offer this. I even brought the head back in after it immediately started smoking to have the mechanic take a look. He gave it the all clear.

That's the tough part for me to swallow. I can see if the work I did was shoddy. I don't do this full time and I'm "trained" by the shop manual (three of them). So, once in a while, I get in over my head and I bring it to a pro, pay extra for it, but everything they do has to be checked and re-checked? That's what is making me want to pack it in.

I considered taking the whole thing to my local shop to have them "just fix it" but chances are the guy is going to farm the work out to someone who may or may not know what they're doing, anyways. And it sounds like there's more and more of them and fewer of the guys qualified to do it right. So what do I do when I get the bike home? Strip it down and check that the guides are good, check that the right stone was used to hone the cylinders, check that he put the right oil in.

On a related note, back in the 90's I brought my bike in and the mechanic scolded me for putting too much fluid in the primary. He said it had to be a specific measured amount (I'm sure it does). When I said I always just filled it until it came out the level he reminded me that this is why he was the professional. Then, he proceeded to strip the left-handed nut holding the footpeg while trying to remove it.

That side has been Helicoil'd, and the threads don't go all the way down. That's why it's sooty black except for the five or so that catch. As I mentioned before, ham-fisted. The shop that installed my guides offered to fix that. What do you guys think?

I think you need to apologise to John Healy.
After that, consider taking the motor to a BSA specialist, not some local auto shop.
Have the troublesome RHS inlet guide checked and replaced if needed. Get a full length plug helicoil to help heat transfer and combat detonation.
Have the bores rehoned to the correct spec and consider fitting lower compression fittings.
If Mr Healy is convenient why not have his shop do the work,he knows what he is talking about and after the slagging you gave him its the least you could do.

The easiest to access is the You Tube version but they are all over the place on various video Hosting sites.<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll2gBdB3AHU>

Winding the piston requires you to put some supports on the cylinder bolts to hold the barrel up off the crank cases , and true to the cankcase mouth.
On the singles you use some U shaped channel or slit hose.

Ring compressor on piston, barrels lowered onto stops, large spanner on the end of the crank shaft, rotate crank & pistons go into barrel.

On twins you will need some hex bar with threaded holes in one end to bolt onto studs and holes in the other to take a short bolt . Same drift, pistons near BDC, ring compressors on, spacers on, barrels onto spacers, big spanner on crank and rotate.
I use a 24" stilsons, sitting vertical, a little tap and most times it will push the piston up under it's own weight.

On the U tube video it is on part no 2.
Run it through a few times and see just how quick & easy the rings go in.
If you want to spend some money have a close look at the jig and get a tool maker to fabricate a couple. If you could not unload a 100 or so on evilbay I would be very surprised . Failing the factory assembly tool which would be different for each engine type & piston size the above with a standard ring compressor is the best alternative I know.

Also , with regards to Johns post above about the some what primitive nature of our engines go through the engine assembly section many times chanting to yourself , "not a NASSA moon mission".

There are better versions around the original posting many years ago ( predated this site ) was on a site called Webzeum or something similar, it can still be accessed via some of the web archiving applications like "flashback" it is a bit tedious but worthwhile as the quality is so much better, there is a similar Triumph one as well.

To understand why BSA died, compare the 1958 BSA factory with the 1960 Honda factory tour

I think remove the helicoil and fit a new one.Only have one thread of the head covering the helicoil at each end,so the coil almost reaches the full length of the thread in the head.


The shape of the port around the end of that guide looks perfectly normal to me.If the guides have correct stem clearance,just seal them at the top and remove any chamfer at the top of the guide bores.

I don't think you guys understand, and maybe I haven't been specific enough in the past, the shear amount of care I've gone through while attempting to remedy this. I'm not taking parts to Joe's muffler shop and asking them to use their wheel balancer to install valve guides. All the work was done by shops that specialize in British motorcycles. Most of them in the same location for 30+ years. The only work that wasn't done by me *or* a British specialist was the last cylinder hone, and that was because I know the guy used to do machine work for the local Triumph guy.

I have ring compressors
I know about modern oils
I know to install rings dry
I know to clean everything
I use US-made rings (although I've been told the Chinese rings are better than US ones. Everyone's got an opinion)
I know how to anneal the head gasket

My point earlier was that *it doesn't matter* who you take the work to; much of it gets farmed out and, maybe it's just me or maybe shops would rather deal in whole bikes so when the guy walks in with just the head or just the jugs, they tell their machinist to f**k this guy over. I don't know. All I know is I'm dealing with reputable shops, shops that despite all this I would still continue to deal with, and this is what I have to show for it.

In the end, there are only two things that have been constant in all of this: the first is the bike I'm working on (maybe it was purchased on Friday the 13th during a full moon) and the second is the guy doing the assembly (me). Guess which one I'm going to blame.

Stick to Hastings, much better than the Taiwanese rings but their pistons are good.

Note: (I wrote this before I checked the site and the pictures have been removed.

When I saw the spark plug and heard the explanation I was ready to walk away from all this. I asked where will this all stop. It seems you have brought some passion and experience to this project, but have been unable to connect all of the appropriate dots. It is one long lesson, that will not be tempered with dreams of that Sportster that you mentioned. Hopping up one of those up has problems of their own.

First if I owned a Spitfire, that I expected to run on the street, the first thing I would do to it is remove those pistons. For a number of reasons, which I am sure in a quiet moment you could recite verbatim, running anything with 11 to 1 pistons is going to cause problems and I am here to say that those pistons, and the challenges they present, are at the root of your problems.

I invite readers to open Marc's flicker link with the picture of the BSA. Detonation has been the plague of this engine since the beginning. Some will look at the Carrillo rod and the rod bearing failure as a lubrication problem. While certainly a possibility, I always look around for all of the clues. One doesn't have to look very far. Just look at the burnt carbon on the under the dome of the pistons, especially on the side with the rod bearing failure. IMHO the rod bearing failure was not a lubrication problem, but caused by the ravages of detonation.

The domes of your pistons show that this motor is still experiencing detonation. Detonation is not your friend at anytime, but it can, and will, upset the ability for rings to seat. Detonation is a violent explosion and can split crankcases in half, break crankshafts, break connecting rods, and yes upset rings so they cannot seal. Detonation when the rings are trying to bed in will not lead to a happy experience. After viewing this, and hearing your explanation about the spark plug it all started to make sense. Before you set off spending money you need to think about how you are going to cure your detonation problem.

Successfully building a performance engine is not a collection of expensive parts, although some are certainly helpful. It is an exercise in understanding and making plans to control the heat that will be generated. Controlling heat, especially in an air cooled engine, is JOB ONE. The first thing you must do is limit the amount of heat created by unwanted detonation and this is done by limiting compression and/or the selection of the octane grade of the fuel to be used. Then you need to set out, and as Kevin Cameron says, "Toughen your engine against detonation." This includes removing all sharp edges, increasing the width of the margin of the valves, adjusting the width of the valve's seat contact area, selecting the correct grade spark plug, selecting an appropriate ignition advance curve, etc... And that brings us back to the spark plug and the heli-coil.

Why do I know all this... because in the past 50 years I have walked in your shoes...
John

The pictures are still there for anyone interested... just one album up from the "burning oil" album: http://s286.photobucket.com/user/bsaman/library/bsa%20rebuild?sort=6&page=1

I think this is the picture John referred to (piston on the left had spun bearing):


To put things into perspective for you guys, that rebuild took place in 2007 and 2008 and the bike has been smoking ever since. Not to the extent it is now (it was my daily rider for one summer) but I really started chasing the root cause in may of 2009 (first set of replacement rings).

The second that rod bearing spun, I inherited (literally, inherited) this bike along with some spares and its history of problems. The NOS high-domed pistons where part of the spares, so I used them. Simple as that.

I don't need high compression. I'm not looking for this:


Rather this (that's me on the front):


As to the reason behind the Sportster comment: I'm a Sportster guy. I love 'em. I have an 04 now which I've rebuilt (no ring seating issues) and had an ironhead in the past. And, while there are a few "British" bike mechanics in my area (usually Triumph guys that will do BSA) there are dozens (if not more) highly qualified guys that work on old HD stuff within a 15 mile radius of me.

Wow, that was REALLY close! You are lucky to have avoided a holed piston, and worse.