Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Bsa bulletin board Still burning oil - considering parking it

From the looks of it, the ring of the corkscrew is forced down against the top of the spring, freeing up the retainers (keepers). Ingenious.

I also love that the remnants of the corkscrew are pictured, for reuse later (without the missus finding out).

Replacing them is one thing but has the correct hone, oil and run in procedure been used?

If you follow the link I posted earlier, John Healey has some excellent advise on all of this, the main points being:-
- if you use original grey cast iron rings (e.g. hepolite), the cylinder must be honed using a grit between 150 to 220. This is coarse enough to allow the rings to bed in.
- modern rebore shops often dont understand this and use a much finer finish which results in poor seating.
- you should use a running in oil or oil with an API grade of SF or less. Modern oils and synthetics are too slippery to allow bedding in of rings.
- dont cover the rings and piston in oil when assembling, just a very slight smear on the cylinder is sufficient
- running in should be performed immediately after first start-up by a good hard ride, dont idle the engine or ride gently it needs a hard run to seat the rings.

I once rebuilt a B44 which experienced similar plug fouling and very smoky exhaust. For the initial build I used synthetic oil and tried gentle running in which was a mistake. I changed the rings several times using JCC and Hepolite to no avail. It was only after I rehoned the bore with 150 grit, used a dry assembly on the rings, classic 20w50 oil and performed a hard run in that I managed to get the rings to seat.

[RANT]
Guys, I'm done replacing rings. I tried Hastings and Total Seal rings. I had the cylinders checked and re-honed by a very knowledgeable local guy (he used to do the cylinders for Don Hutchinson). I cleaned and scrubbed them until I could eat off of them. I put just a dab of oil on the piston skirts. I filled it with 30w break-in mineral oil. Still, it burns enough oil as to be un-usable.

Unless someone is willing to replace the rings and do all the work for free to prove that I'm not doing it incorrectly, it's not the damn rings. I'm not trying to be an a** but I find it hard to believe that, unless all the stars are aligned on the second full moon of a summer month, then the rings won't seat. If that were true there would be way more A65s ending up with fouled plugs every 15 miles. People honing by hand with ScothBrite and using paper clips for rings are having more luck than I am. It's not the damn rings.
[/RANT]


So, if not the rings then what?

Valve guides? That is a possibility. I'm trying to devise a way to test that so as not to have to throw any money at it. Other than sealing around the guides and hope for the best, any other ideas?

Wet sumping? Can't think of a good way to check that? Run it without the plate in place?

Anything else?

Don't forget to sharpen the tops of the guides like a pencil,to remove any trace of a chamfer on the guide bore.
Other than that,you can only fit size 010 Viton O-rings into the top spring collar before you drop the collets in.That will stop oil draining through the spring collar,and down the valve stem.

rather than rebuilding you own head,see if you can find another decent used head ,as long as its surface is flat & has useable valves just fit it & see if it cures it or its the same.if its the same maybe you are being a bit gentle running it in ,i had a similar issue with blow by on my a 65.i honed it with a course oilstone hone & assembled it dry .started it & went for a run not caning it but riding normaly not shifting early etc.it fixed it .now there a bit precious we are being a bit overly gentle on them sometimes.
or if your truly sick of it ,box it up & i will gladly pay for shipping it over to me ,maybe its getting homesick HAHA

MarcB..... "From the looks of it, the ring of the corkscrew is forced down against the top of the spring, freeing up the retainers (keepers). Ingenious."

Yep I see that but I was wondering if he had a bar or something bearing on the valve head , or what he was using to stop the whole head moving when he cranked against the spring? as he whole thing would be sitting on an angle ...a couple of wooden wedges would do it I guess .


if you've had the bore checked over and ok by expert that seems to answer that ...

you would need to be real unlucky to get 4 out of round ring sets in a row so we can probably forget that one.

when you got the new guides fitted maybe they damaged (or cracked) the bore they locate in? One thing for sure it would need to be a major prob with guides to give the amount of smoke you are talking about.

Having just reread the thread I noticed you mentioned you are using Joe Gibbs BR30 break in oil. I checked on the web and this oil is actually a 5W30 multigrade which strikes me as being very thin for use on an A65 especially when cold.

Whether this is an issue or not is debatable but I can envisage a scenario where a very thin 5w30 oil is sucked into the cylinders on the overrun especially if the oil has not reached full operating temp at around 90c.

Maybe you could try using straight 40 or 50 weight oil and see if that helps?

While you may be frustrated, let's look at a few things;

First Total Seal rings have a learning curve, and for some people it can be steep. I watched a noted "Triumph tuner", at least that is what he calls himself, struggle trying to come to grips with Total Seal rings. Because they seal they create a lot of vacuum on the over run and will physically suck oil past the rings and by the intake valves stems. I think it took him a couple of racing seasons before he had no oil coming out of the exhaust pipe on the over run.

Because the intake valve stem is under the most vacuum is there any oil around the valve stem, or inlet guide? Oil can be coming down the stem or past the outside of the guide. When it comes out past the outside of the guide it will usually leave a track you can trace back to the problem area.

Is there oil collecting behind the intake valve?

Is there oil on the top of the piston?

Is there oil collecting in the exhaust pipe?

Is the cylinder bore glazed?

Rings can tell you a lot. If you put a ring in upside down (and with hastings the dot goes up) it will pump oil. When you take the rings out and check the contact face of the ring. If the ring is tapered faced the ring should show a full 360° contact ring starting at the bottom of the ring and going up the face ring about 1/3 of the way.

If the worn (broken in) contact area is at the top, the ring was put in upside down. Also the narrow contact area should be 360° and show full contact. If there are blotches of unworn ring showing anywhere around what should be a shiny contact area the ring was either bent during installation or the cylinder glazed before the ring could seat. To seal the face of the ring must not show any areas where the ring didn't break-in.

Got to go home!

the guides were replaced in an attempt to curb the oil consumption. That's not to say they weren't bad before and made worse by the replacement.

the switch to br30 was an attempt to help the rings seat and curb the oil consumption. Prior attempts were made with straight 50w dyno oil from Drag Specialty.

the use of Total Seal rings was an attempt to curb oil consumption. I've since gone back to Hastings (same as the first set I tried when I suspected the rings originally installed on the NOS pistons were to blame).

One thing to note: the Hastings ring are clearly marked for the top and middle rings, but the oil control ring has no markings for top and bottom. At first, it appears symmetrical across the horizontal line, but a closer look shows that it's not 100% so. I took them back to the guy I bought them from and he stated that it didn't matter which way they went. Any input on that, John?

You may be on to something. These old Brit bikes always seem to run best on those miserable dreary gray days. Once the sun shines they get moody.

This is interesting as this oil has an API grade of SL. In other words, it will contain friction modifiers which wont help bedding in. I believe the general consensus for classic bikes is to use oils which are now considered obsolete with an API grade no higher than SG.

I know how frustrating these issues are and I have been there myself. You just have to keep at it and the forum is here to help.

Would be useful if you had some photos of the head, barrel, pistons, rings etc. Another set of eyes is always handy with this kind of annoying problem.

If you have not tried clamping the feed to the head you are missing a zero cost easy test for identifying the source of the problem.It will take a few miles to burn up oil residues in the motor and exhaust. In the old days motors ran with no oil feed to valves and you are unlikely to cause any damage in 5 miles.If the smoke reduces i would seal around the guides as suggested.Also try running a 40 monograde.

Doesn't the head oiling also server the camshaft? At this point, it's essentially unrideable anyways so it's worth a shot. Won't have a chance to try it until the weekend, but will report if this helped.

I think the oil from the head lubricates the cam followers and, by running through the small holes at the bottom of the recess in the casting, the cam follower/cam lobe interface but I think that cutting the supply for a short while to see if it reduces the smoking sounds like a plan.

Seems in the original service sheets that it was also emphasised to use the right size of split pin in the inlet oilway to regulate the flow correctly - maybe worth checking as if this is missing it could result in over-oiling the inlet rocker and starving the exhaust?

As for the corkscrew, yes I had a plain ended bar (or old valve) in the chuck to bear against the valve face. Once aligned the head can rotate feely whilst the spring is compressed but I found I could hold it fine with just a rag under it to cushion it from the lathe bed bars.

Cheers,
Bernie

The cam and followers are mainly lubricated by the oil slung off the flywheel. There is not enough flow to the rocker feeds to lubricate the cam or followers.

(or at least there shouldn't be)

Also you can check the flow from your head feed when you do this test. If you get anything more than a drip-drip-drip, you're getting too much oil from the line.

Finally, you have checked that the jiggle pin (cotter) is in its hole in the head, right?

Finally got the chance (or will, rather. Not much enthusiasm at this point) for a couple of tests.

1. Pinched the oil line to the head and verified that nothing was flowing that way. Did a 5 mile stint the long way around the block. Results: no difference.

2. Drained the sump once home to check for wet sumping. Results: ~1 ounce of oil in the sump.

One thing to note. I had enough clear road tonight to spend some time looking backward to the left and right side while I rode. The right side *may* be smoking while cruising but the left side doesn't appear to be at all. Cruising at 4000 RPM and rolling off, then back on when it reaches 2500 RPM, both sides send a billow of smoke. Right side is worse, but both sides do it. Only right side has fouled up plugs to date, though.

That break in oil you used says it chemically assists ring bedding in, sounds like it just does not like cast iron rings. The smoking on acceleration is classic ring bypass, I would rehone, new rings and use a cheap 20/50W supermarket oil. That breaking in oil you used sounds good on paper but looks like its not suited to these bikes. If its smoking on deceleration then I would be looking at the top end.

That's funny; I've read the exact opposite. That, if you blip the throttle after decelerating and you get a cloud of smoke, it's valve guides. Now granted I don't think that's the case here because of the fact that I wasn't oiling the head at all tonight and it smoked just as bad as before. My point though, is that for everyone who's 100% sure one thing means one thing, someone swears is the opposite.

My Commando was smoking badly on the left side under acceleration, new rings and a hone cured it completely.



Guides is top end, when I say top end its the head I am referring to.

Oh, I understand that. My point was that I read that the type of smoke I described, where it's mostly obvious after decelerating and blipping the throttle, indicates valve guides. In my case, the behavior I see seems to point at the top end, which is disproved by the fact that the top end wasn't oiled at all during the latest test.

So, going back to the type of oil used. I find this somewhat irrelevant and here's why. I've talked with three local experts about this. 2 British mechanics and my local indy Harley guy (he's the guy I mentioned before who used to do machine work for Don Hutchinson; he did the last hone for me). When pushed for which oil to used for break-in, all seemed surprised at the question and the answer was anything off the shelf that isn't synthetic.

Assuming they are all wrong or they're lying to me, is the outcome of improper ring seating the complete inability to use the machine from fouling of plugs?

They are not wrong, you never use synthetic oil for running in as its just too slippy, the oil you used refers to a chemical additive for ring bedding in, its a guess that this has caused a problem as cast iron rings are ancient and could have been ignored when this oil for formulated. You would only know by ringing up the oil maker and ask them direct.



One of the outcomes yes.

hone it rebuild it dry use a normal cheapo oil & ride it normally ,dont labour it ,let it rev.
whilst you have the barrels off check the ring land dimensions & make sure the rings dont have excessive up & down play.this can cause oil pumping & lots of smoke.has the barrel had new liners ,is one cracked .warm the cylinder up with a blowlamp & watch for a crack or oil seeping from a bore.
these are grasping at straws ideas.if it still smokes just use it hard .it will either bed in or not.

N3C = NGK B8ES Colder
N4C = NGK B7ES Just right
N5C = NGK B6ES Hotter

With Champion plugs between the same plug the higher the number the hotter the plug. NGK goes in reverse for reasons known only to them.

Break in oil: Beno Rodi (factory trained BSA mechanic) uses Walmart Tech 20W50 in the blue jug for break in on all his road bikes. I think he uses Castrol R on his race bikes (judging from the cool smell )

Take the head off and look at what colour the bores are. That will tell you if it's rings without going any further.

Has the head or barrel surface been skimmed and a good annealed head gasket been used?

Shutting down on the throttle will get the engine seeking for something to fill the void, creating a vacuum and pulling oil in from guides, poor head joints and depending on how good your breathing system is, possibly past the rings too. The engine not breathing at the right time will not only increase chances of oil leaks but may hinder the seating of rings.

You could also take the bike to a local garage and as them to perform a leak down test. It will tell if there is good combustion sealing and give an idea where any leak is coming from.


There seems to be a lot of advice and no real effort to sort the problem. So to sound harsh on that but that's what it looks like.

You will never know the answer until you tear it down. To measure is to know. Only John Healy has given this thread any sense of reality.
The fact is the darn thing burns oil like a fry chef on Friday Night.