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lollo85 Offline OP
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Hi, I'm Lorenzo; i bought a Triumph T100 of 1955 in poor condition:

[Linked Image]


I've totally restored it with the 1957 coloration

[Linked Image]


Motobike specification are:

- 500cc alloy cylinder with 9:1 pistons and alloy head
- E3275 inlet and exhaust cams
- Valve timing at:
in opens 26,5°
in closes 69,5°
ex opens 61,5°
ex closes 35,5°

I ask for your help because i need to know if the procedure i have made for the magneto ignition timing is correct.

I start positioning the zero of the degree wheel at the "TDC" (drive-side valve are closed)

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I rotate backforward the rear wheel of about 180° and then i do the same in the opposite direction (forward travel) until reach 37°

[Linked Image]


Now block the ATD in the "full advance position"

[Linked Image]


and i insert the tissue paper between the points while they start opening

[Linked Image]


the latest thing is block the nut of the ATD.

Doing this procedure, if I try to start the motobike, smoke and flames get out from the rear inlet's carb.

what's wrong?

Thanks
Lorenzo



Last edited by lollo85; 08/10/13 7:55 pm.
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Nice bike and great resto!!

All your steps are correct, but predicated on TDC as being zero on the degree wheel. So first question is how did you locate TDC?

2nd. How do you know the mag is working right? Having been built before the NASA space program, they contain "all natural ingredients" which means the innards have been naturally biodegrading since 1957. Chief among these is the ignition capacitor.

Hint: A battery-operated buzzer across the points will let you look at the degree wheel as you rotate the rear wheel in high gear. Then you can hear the points open while you look at the degree wheel. Much simpler. If you want to use paper, then use ultra thin tissue wrapping paper or cigarette paper, not newspaper.

Hope this helps! :bigt


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On the more humorous side....

Maybe you simply need the correct degree wheel. Triumph degrees may be different, you know.

[Linked Image]


beerchug


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As the man says, make sure your top dead centre zero degrees is accurate.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...;oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari
Otherwise, use measured distance before top dead centre.

The magneto turns backwards in relation to the crankshaft. Do you rotate the points backwards until they just start to release the paper.
Then press the ATD onto the magneto shaft with your thumbs. Then tighten the nut.

Then check that the timing is correct, by rotating the crankshaft slowly forward until the points just start to release the paper. Should happen at your chosen 37 degrees.

It's easy to accidentally time the spark to the end of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. That can be fixed by swapping the plug leads over to the opposite plug, left for right

Last edited by triton thrasher; 08/10/13 12:26 pm.

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lollo85 Offline OP
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Thanks for your answers

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
How do you know the mag is working right?


The magneto has been rewound, and the capacitor has been replace with "easycap"; the spark is strong

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by RF Whatley

So first question is how did you locate TDC?


I bought a "comparator tool", I positioned it in the spark plug hole; I rotated the rear wheel to and fro until the needle marked the highest point.

In the handbook states falling before "TDC" 8mm or 9,5mm


[Linked Image]


I try with a "comparator tool" to gauge 9,5mm before "TDC"

[Linked Image]

I noticed with my degree wheel, 9,5mm not match to 37°.

The motorbike still continue doesn't start.
So I try to set the "comparator tool" to 8mm; the motobike starts! but i feel that the engine running out of sync.

Why?

In the handbook I read that my T100 must be set to 37° (9,5mm), but stresses that the use of 8:1 pistons compression


[Linked Image]

My T100 has 9:1 pistons compression; this element change the degree of the ignition?

Thanks

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Lorenzo -
You spent a lot of money to get a bad TDC reading ! laughing

• Think about it. The dial indicator goes in at an angle, but the number you were given is "piston travel", which is straight up and down. Not only that, but the tip of the indicator's plunger is tracing over a curved surface; that is, the dome of the piston. You'd actually do better with a short piece of .030" wire that you can almost stand vertically in the plug hole.

So the dial indicator, although very elegant, is not producing a result inline with its cost or capability. In other words, because the instrument is capable of high accuracy, you are being fooled into believing that the results are of high accuracy. Unfortunately, they are not.

Save the dial indicator for timing cams and such, which is done with the head removed, where pure up-and-down tappet lift and piston travel can be very accurately measured.

• The good news is that you can make the tool you need for pennies. Take an old spark plug with good threads and bust all the porcelain out. Then tap the spark plug body interior to the smallest thread size possible. This usually ends up as 5/16" (8mm) or 3/8 (10mm). Find a 3" long bolt to fit these threads that is fully threaded (threads go all the way to the hex). Grind the tip of the bolt to a sphere, and add a nut. You just made Triumph tool #CD385 as featured on page 4 in this document.

• When you screw that into the engine's plug hole, adjust the bolt's length to stop the piston at about 15 deg BTDC. Then turn the crank backward and the piston will stop at 15 deg BTDC in the reverse direction. If you'll split the difference between those 2 stop points on your degree wheel (whatever they may be) you'll be EXACTLY at TDC.


That should get your degree wheel readings spot-on.

• By the way, the plans for the official Triumph degree wheel holder are also on GABMA Right Here !

Hope this helps! :bigt


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Originally Posted by RF Whatley
The dial indicator goes in at an angle, ... You'd actually do better with a short piece of .030" wire that you can almost stand vertically in the plug hole.
Well, sort of, but...

Yes, the dial indicator is at an angle, and yes that does cause an error. But, if that angle is, say, 15-deg., and if it had been accurately zeroed at TDC (another issue I'll skip for now), when it reads 9.5mm the piston is actually 9.18 mm BTDC because of the cosine error. That's an error of 0.013" (~1/64"), and it's pretty tough to do as well as that with a piece of wire, no matter how vertical. Also, at that position BTDC an error of 1/2 mm is less than 1-deg. error in timing, so this isn't the source of his problems.

Originally Posted by RF Whatley
Take an old spark plug with good threads and bust all the porcelain out. ... When you screw that into the engine's plug hole, adjust the bolt's length to stop the piston at about 15 deg BTDC....
Aside from the fact that busting porcelain out of a spark plug is not easy, personally, I've never been fond of using a solid stop like this to find TDC. You are running an Al piston straight into a bolt of fairly small cross section so unless you are really, really careful the shock to the piston crown will be large even for a moderate bump.

While I've just defended the OP's use of a precision dial indicator, and while I love precision measuring instruments myself, there is a time and a place for them. I don't believe this is the time or place (and I'm including degree wheels in this). I carry in my bike toolkits a machinist's pocket ruler on the back of which I've taped a piece of paper with the BTDC readings for as many machines as I could find. I locate TDC by rocking the engine back and forth with the ruler inserted in the spark plug hole, and then slide the pocket clip down to touch the head. I take the ruler out, add the correct timing distance to wherever the clip is, and slide the clip to that new location (I have these figures in mm because they're a lot easier to add than fractions). Over the past ten years I've probably timed a half-dozen bikes for people using this ruler, all of which started and ran without problem. Crude as this may sound to those of you who haven't tried it, I'm sure I can find the correct position BTDC on any of our old bikes to at least 1/2mm, i.e. to within better than 1-deg.

Someone who has their bike completely sorted out and who now wants to set the timing to the nearest milli-degree needs something better than a ruler to do that (begging the question, what BTDC value should one actually use with modern fuels?... but, let's ignore that for now). But, while trying to get an engine running in the first place it's best to do it the fastest way possible since things likely will have to be taken apart, put back together, taken apart,... several times before success is achieved. Now is not the time for the OP to be saddled with a degree wheel. He needs a ruler.

Aside to the OP: in what part of Italy are you located?


p.s. The type of ruler I'm talking about is shown on this link, although the ones I use have inches on one edge and mm on the other -- I highly recommend that type for this purpose because great as the Imperial measuring system is sometimes metric is better:

http://www.amazon.com/6-Stainless-Steel-Pocket-Ruler/dp/B001RBLXH0

Last edited by Magnetoman; 08/10/13 11:44 pm. Reason: added p.s.
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Nice work on the restoration and thanks for posting such great, clear photos of the issue. It makes diagnosis much easier!

The fact that engine does run at all is a good sign and indicates that you are "getting close" with the timing. By all means review how you are determining the 37'/9.5mm mark. Perhaps double check using the ruler method and be 110% sure before continuing.

Regarding the piston stop tool method, I would just caution that the inlet valve can hit the tool on some motors like my 750 T140. Something to keep in mind. Otherwise it is a good accurate method of finding exact TDC.

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Originally Posted by Excalibur- bold highlight by this writer
Nice work on the restoration and thanks for posting such great, clear photos of the issue. It makes diagnosis much easier!

The fact that engine does run at all is a good sign and indicates that you are "getting close" with the timing. By all means review how you are determining the 37'/9.5mm mark. Perhaps double check using the ruler method and be 110% sure before continuing.

Regarding the piston stop tool method, I would just caution that the inlet valve can hit the tool on some motors like my 750 T140. Something to keep in mind. Otherwise it is a good accurate method of finding exact TDC.


This link is a result for a search re: burnworth tester 233, mentioned in R F Whatley's link for the TDC tool--

[Linked Image]
. . .And deals with using the TDC tool safely:

[Linked Image]
http://www.britishonly.com/pdf/triumph/Servicebulletin/1964/TriumphServiceBulletin_021964_64-3.pdf

Last edited by JBMorris; 08/11/13 1:42 am. Reason: add pics for lazy dics

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1) Take your dial indicator and extend the tip using some threaded rod that fits. This will be so thin that you can ge4t the indicator almost vertical, and the TDC measurement will be much more reliable.

2) How well is the magneto cam being located by the blanking bolt ? If there's any slop you'll never get it accurate.

3) As long as you're not too advanced, and don't need dyno accuracy, timing doesn't have to be that good. I have no auto advance fitted, but I do have a Manual advance fitted that rotates the cam. I can start halfway down my adjustment, implying I'm 20 degrees retarted on the correct setting. The bike runs fine on all settings of the lever unless I'm cranking it up at over 4000rpm. Sure I'm losing a bit, and heating a little, but so ? This tells you to time it well retarded to prove all's well, and advance it to maximum power later.


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lollo85 Offline OP
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Thank you all for your answers


Originally Posted by RF Whatley

• Think about it. The dial indicator goes in at an angle, but the number you were given is "piston travel", which is straight up and down. Not only that, but the tip of the indicator's plunger is tracing over a curved surface; that is, the dome of the piston. You'd actually do better with a short piece of .030" wire that you can almost stand vertically in the plug hole.


You are right, the procedure i have made wasn't correct, i haven't thought that the angle could impact on gauge


Originally Posted by Magnetoman

p.s. The type of ruler I'm talking about is shown on this link, although the ones I use have inches on one edge and mm on the other -- I highly recommend that type for this purpose because great as the Imperial measuring system is sometimes metric is better:

http://www.amazon.com/6-Stainless-Steel-Pocket-Ruler/dp/B001RBLXH0


I can't get this tool now, so I've tried another way to do it

I took a thin iron piece

[Linked Image]


I positioned it on the TDC, and I put a mark there

[Linked Image]


then I positioned it on a rule and I mark two points (8mm and 9,5mm)

[Linked Image]


then I inserted it in the spark plug hole and I get off the pistons of 9,5mm

[Linked Image]


as you can see, this time 9,5mm exactly corresponds at 37°

[Linked Image]


this test make me think that my degree wheel is correct, but at 37° the motobike still doesn't start.

Now I try to get the pistons of 8mm

[Linked Image]


8mm exactly corresponds at 34°

[Linked Image]

at 34° the motorbike still running out of sync, and it clear that exhaust pipe of the drive-side it's very hotter than the timing-side exhaust pipe.

According to you, why in the handbook is written to choose between 8mm or 9,5mm "as the case may be"? what does it mean?



Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Aside to the OP: in what part of Italy are you located?


I live in Pesaro

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If your ignition timing is correct and you are still getting flames and smoke out of the rear of the carb then you need to swop the HT leads over and if that does not work look at the cams to make sure they are timed correctly too.

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Originally Posted by lollo85
then I inserted it in the spark plug hole and I get off the pistons of 9,5mm
this time 9,5mm exactly corresponds at 37°
8mm exactly corresponds at 34°
The pictures you posted, along with these results, clearly shows that the "ruler method" of timing works quite nicely. Even with your homemade ruler with broad felt pen marks you easily could get the timing to within 1-deg.

Originally Posted by lollo85
According to you, why in the handbook is written to choose between 8mm or 9,5mm "as the case may be"? what does it mean?
From what handbook did you extract that paragraph you posted? Triumph's "Workshop Instruction Manual 1945-1955" shows 37o B.T.C., 3/8" (9.5 mm) B.T.C. for a T100 with 8:1 pistons. For the T110 with 8.5:1 pistons they show 35o, 9.2 mm. However, the cams in these engines are different as well as the pistons. For what it's worth the TR5 has the same cams as the T110, but with 8:1 pistons, and it needs 41o, 12 mm. But, I believe the heads are identical. If this is the case, what we can infer from this is that using higher compression pistons in your engine calls for slightly less advance than for the stock machine, i.e. closer to 34o. The only downside to using too little advance is somewhat reduced power at high rpm. The downside to too much advance is a hole in a piston.

Originally Posted by kommando
If your ignition timing is correct and you are still getting flames and smoke out of the rear of the carb ... and if that does not work look at the cams to make sure they are timed correctly too.
I looked at enlargements of photos earlier in this thread and I can clearly see black dots you put on the gears yourself, but I can't see why you put them in the positions that you did, i.e. I can't see Triumph's indentations in those gears. Are you sure you put your pen marks in the correct locations?

Originally Posted by lollo85
I live in Pesaro
I've been to Italy many times, and had the pleasure of riding a friend's motorcycle through Napoli carrying a passenger back from a party(!), but never have made it to the Adriatic side of the country.

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Thanks for the great photos :bigt

If there's no result from 37' or 34', then I'd go back to the basics.
Check compression, cam timing, head torque and tappet clearance. Is the gasoline fresh?

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Originally Posted by kommando
If your ignition timing is correct and you are still getting flames and smoke out of the rear of the carb ... and if that does not work look at the cams to make sure they are timed correctly too.


A friend of mind made the procedure of the "cam timing" for me because I can't do that, but i think that something was wrong; I think so because the exhaust pipe of the drive-side it's very hotter than the timing-side exhaust pipe


Following the specification of the handbook: "Inlet Opens 26,5° Before Top Dead Center".

I tried to check with the degree wheel if the inlet valve opens at 26,5° but the valve doesn't opens at this degree;


What can I do in order to do the procedure of cam timing again?


[Linked Image]

Last edited by lollo85; 10/14/13 4:56 pm.
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Originally Posted by lollo85
What can I do in order to do the procedure of cam timing again?
I won't have a chance myself today so I hope someone else jumps in with a scan from a shop Manual. What the diagrams in the shop Manual show is there should be indentations punched into each of the gears that are in the timing case, and that those indentations on all of the gears have to be properly aligned with respect to each other for the cam timing to be correct. An early photo you posted in this thread shows that there are marks made with a black felt tip pen on your gears, but what I can't see is if those marks are in the correct locations on the gears (i.e. directly over indentations in the gears). Once you turn the engine over the marks will no longer line up, so the fact they are not lined up in that photo is not the issue. The issue is whether or not when the gears were first installed all of them were in proper alignment.

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I believe you are missing a couple of steps. I am no expert, but I used John Healy's article in Vintage Bike Vol.2005-2 to do mine.
He measures lift off the push rod after zeroing out the indicator for a certain amount of lift in inches. In the article he uses the cam builders specification of .020" of lift. I would be hours typing out the article. Perhaps some one can explain it better. I think you are very close.


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This is photo'd from the '45-'55 Triumph workshop Manual. I suggest to reset the camwheels to these marks. Reset the ignition timing and test. Normally the marks on the camwheels are good enough for all but competition racing.
[Linked Image]

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Does he have the ramp cams, referred to in the top diagram on that page? They're not common nowadays.


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...may I make a small suggestion? I use the degree wheel on the other end of the crank which lets me 'strobe' my engine which is not possible from the timing side(given a few good kicks with the plugs out will show you an idea if the timings WAY out)!


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Thanks to all of you for your answers. I'm sorry for the delay of this post, but I wanted to do a more accurate check.

I've tried to do again the valve timing following your pointings, that is using the marked points on gears; the procedure has been very difficult because of the very ruined gears. However the situation is not changed: the problems are the same as before.

Then I tried to do new checks on magneto ignition timing and I noticed that bringin it to 40 degrees, rather than to the 37 advised by the handbook motorbike operate discreetly.

Doing some trials on the road (with on engine) I noticed that the motorbike was in a stop going on high rpm. Pulling down all the air lever the motorbike goes very well and goes on high rpm without problems.

What the problem can be? The carburettor is new

[Linked Image]


I have bought directly from AMAL following the advisors from "Triumph Twins Restoration" of Roy Bacon.

The advisors are the following:

[Linked Image]


Type: 376/35
Size: 15/16
Main: 220
Pilot: 25
Slide: 3 1/2
Needle:
-pos: 4
-jet: 106


Thanks for your help

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There is a lot said here before me and it might have been covered. I just want to check what procedure you are following. Once you have got TDC and then rotated back and then forward to 37 degrees. What do you do next? Do you use the thin paper the determine when the points open by rotating the tapered end of the magneto shaft where the auto advance timing gear fits (the auto advance gear must be off)? Do you then once this is determined rotate the auto advance gear and while holding it in the fully advance position carefully fit the gear onto the tapered end while making sure that the points position has not changed in the cam ring while fitting? You need to make sure that points position does not change until you have tightened the auto advance gear, then you can release the auto advance. If you have done it like that you should be able to start the bike. I am guessing that you have fuel and spark at this stage. Hope that make sense.

The other possibility is if you have changed the cam ring or someone before you has changed the cam ring before you got it. This will give you a big headache.


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Could the position of the air lever (choke) be confusing you?

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If the ignition timing is anywhere between 35 degrees and 37 degrees BTDC on BOTH cylinders,the bike should run well.

If the cam timing is a little bit wrong,don't be worried about it.It was lousy timing when Ed Turner invented it.If the intake valve timing is advanced by about 10 degrees more than what the book says,it would run better than ever.

The bike should run OK when the choke cable is pulled tight.If it runs better with the cable loose (choke on),something is wrong.

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I think he is missing the point here. When looking at the photos they are out of sequence. One of the critical parts is to captivate the auto advance gear unit on the tapered shaft with the timing set at the right BTDC and the points just about to open. When setting the points to just before they open the auto advance gear must be removed. In his photos the gear is in position even though not tightened.
The auto advance unit centre sleeve nut is captive within the unit itself and after wedging the unit in the fully advanced position and checking that the magneto is still correctly position with the point just about to open/ separate. Fit the advance unit to the tapered shaft of the magneto. The nut must be turned so that the unit is gradually drawn on to the tapered shaft. , since the magneto armature be permitted to turn even a fraction until the auto advance pinion is correctly in positioned. If this procedure is followed the bike will start as long as there is gas and spark.
Make sure the spark plug leads are correctly connected. If the engine is timed to the above recommendation the lead nearest the engine should connect to the left spark plug and the opposite to the right spark plug. If it does not start then there is something else wrong.

Last edited by '59 Bonnie; 09/07/13 2:29 am.

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