Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Bsa bulletin board BSA A65 5 speed gearboxes

After speaking to SRM at the weekend, I have learnt that Quaife are still prepared to make 5 speed boxes. However after speaking to Quaife they put me in touch with P+M Motorcycles.

I spoke to Richard at P+M (if you wish to discuss your interest, he is a great guy to talk to, 02088 471711)

Now, if you are sitting comfortably he tells me that a single box to manufacture would cost between £2500-3000 ish. However, the more boxes we can get made the cheaper it will become. Quaife will not deal with the public directly on this one and use P+M as their distributor. If we can get orders for around 20-25, I can ask Richard to find me out a price, deposits will have to be made (once a price has been given) to guarantee receiving a box.

They come complete as a cassette ready to fit, so there won't be any need to do anything else to the box (unless someone knows different, please correct me).

Before considering a unit, please bear in mind that the minimum these boxes will cost is about £1200-1500. The price could come less than that, but don't expect one for £500. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I don't want to miss lead anyone. Nor do I want to get Richard to research a price etc, have everyone else to feel they are paying price X and committing and then someone drop out which puts the price up for anyone else. However if we can get MORE than 25 orders, I'm sure we may get it cheaper still.

Please note I don't want to make a penny on this, I just want a box as cheap as possible and once the order has been placed any money will be dealt directly with P+M Motorcycles.

I'm also hoping the likes of SRM, Dave Madigan, classic cycle supply etc are reading this as it is a golden opportunity for anyone interested.


On an alternative note, Dave Mad' did you ever work out a cost for making your own 5 speed cluster?

Hi Allan,

Yes this sounds interesting. However, even at £1,200 it is still very expensive when compared to the current value of an A65.

The other matter will be the necessary casing design and machining to add in the extra gear selector fork as well as a new quadrant needed to effect selection.

If I were looking for a change to the current A65 'box, I might want to look at the possibility of alternative ratios to give a more even change, especially between 3rd and top, where the change is quite small.

In addition, a 650 twin has plenty of torque across the rpm range and therefore doesn't cry out for an extra ratio, unlike the R3/T150 which clearly benefitted.

What might be of greater interest to A65 owners is a new aluminium NIKASIL lined cylinder barrel which could be available in 650 or 700/750cc variants. That product should have a significantly bigger market and be potentially more 'useful' to A65 owners when compared to the technical problems and costs associated with a 5 speed 'box.

Incidentally, my very late T140 ('87 Harris Bonneville) has a NIKASIL barrel and it works very well too.

As ever just my thoughts.

Allan
If this actually comes to be I would commit to 4 sets. If I read you correct this will be a complete cassette complete with forks selector cam etc.
I may be able to get more people interested I will have to do some asking around at the road race circles

I feel I have to disagree.. If you only rode the A65 on the flat, then 4 gears would be suitable, but to enable you to keep the revs at an optimimum on hills etc, 5 gears would improve things.. My

From the info I got from SRM and P+M I believe this to be true. I will make a second call to Quaife and confirm this. Possibly later today.



I can see where DD is coming from, but a lot of it is to do with riding style etc.

My personal intentions are to fit a taller gearbox sprocket (or smaller FD sprocket) which with my other mods will be fine with the torque the bike can produce, however the tall the gearing, the taller first gear etc becomes and becomes a pig in traffic. I will also ask Quaife if they can provide me with gear ratios, for my own benefit I can plot a table giving me the RPM drop between each gear.




I can fully see you point of view, for someone that just wants a nice running bike to do the "Sunday club run" on, this is going to be more than what it is worth. I personally can see the group of people buying this kit are:
Those who cover a lot of mileage
Those that don't intend on selling the bike or at least not for a long time
Race riders, circuit or LSR
etc.

As always your thoughts are apreciated :bigt

Fair point. I should have been more specific by saying that the engine has a reasonably flat torque curve, thereby maybe making a 5 speed box desirable but not essential.

Gear ratios

1st- 2.294 :1
2nd- 1.698 :1
3rd- 1.373 :1
4th- 1.235 :1
5th 1:1

Comes assembled with cam plate and selector fork

No known mods required.

Allan,

Are there any known prototypes in existence? If so perhaps it would be possible to see a photo or a 3D rendition maybe?

BTW std. ratios are:-

1st- 2.03 :1
2nd- 1.47 :1
3rd- 1.10 :1
4th- 1.00 :1
5th- ---

(Hence my earlier comment re the small increment from 3rd to 4th)

Jeeze. I'd be interested in one. The North Georgia Montains are begging for a 5 speed box. Please put me on the list.

Think those are the CR gear sets for the early A65's

I'm not sure about first but the rest are std

2.51:1????
1.6:1
1.14:1
1:1 (naturally)

As I say, I'll have to confirm first gear. For me and the output gears I want, the lower first can be the better, and I may be able to get Quaife to change this???

However, if the majority prefer the ratios as listed, I'll happily go with that.


Afaik, the A65 Quaife box has been in existence for some time and quite possibly some members here have them in their bikes, any reviews on it are great fully received.

Lower 1st would suit me as I have to slip the clutch on uphill starts with the 21T front sprocket!!

My apologies...

CLOSE ratios are:-

1st- 2.03 :1
2nd- 1.47 :1
3rd- 1.10 :1
4th- 1.00 :1

STANDARD ratios are:-

1st- 2.51 :1
2nd- 1.60 :1
3rd- 1.144 :1
4th- 1.00 :1

And the 5 speed R3v/T150v/(T140v) ratios are:-

5th - 1.00
4th - 1.19
3rd - 1.40
2nd - 1.82
1st - 2.59

I too am interested...gap between 2nd and 3rd more annoying with 21 tooth. I have wanted another gear since, oh, about 1969.

Bill

OK...

I too have just spoken to Quaife Ltd. and they do apparently have a small but limited number of these gearboxes in stock.

They were originally designed many years ago by the founder of the Quaife company so the drawings are all on paper hence they don't have anything they could email right now. They were used on racing machines so the design is clearly proven on race engines and its apparently a straight swap for the current gearbox - including quadrant, main shaft (incl. taper), selector forks, bearings, etc etc.

The one off price I was quoted was GBP2,100 plus tax (20% in the UK). I did not get a discounted price for a larger quantity as the sales guy would need to speak to one of the directors for that.

The gear ratios given to me are as posted by Allan. I also don't see why they wouldn't deal with the public directly however, for a bulk purchase that of course presents a potential risk, hence I can see why they and potential purchasers might well prefer to do it through an approved/trusted supplier such as P&M.

HTH.

From what I understood, the item on the shelf was from a small batch made, the remaining few are the ones which didn't get bought and Quaife prefered to keep the price than discount to clear the shelf.

I couldn't remember when talking to P&M if that £2500 was inc vat or not, and it was an about cost at that (£2420 inc vat to be precise, possibly plus postage too)

I can't see P&M selling it for any more than Quaife directly as with P&M being a distributor he will quite possibly get a retailers discount. If SRM etc wishes to increase this order then it would make sense to everyone and a more viable purchase to make one large bulk order. Depending on the cost I would be prepared to buy 3 of these, the second being for another motor I am hoping to build, and a 3rd to make the orders up for a better price all round and I have one hell of a many riding year left in me, I'd rather have one on my shelf than go through all this again.

However, I am quite prepared to be the middle man and collect names ( and even deposits if it comes to that) to get the order numbers correct, if one person registers interest with me and then with P&M, things get confused. Alternately speak to P&M, but tell me that is what you have done. As I mentioned brfore the only profit I will be making is by getting enough sales through to make my box and everyone elses cheaper.

Allan,

Can you PM me please?

I tried but you are apparently over your message limit! :-)

Dave, pm sent

although its out of my price range the prices mentioned sound cheap for a special batch of gear clusters & forks etc. a few of my mates take part in classic racing & the prices are small change compared to there outlays for fancy manx & goldie boxes.it the gearboxes will be allowed in classic events there are probably a few sidecar races who would want a set.i bet it would cost similar money to remanufacture a standard gearbox.now if you can find someone to cast a set of crankcases with a ball race on the timing side & a more efficient oil pump i might be tempted to max out the bank account.

Hi Double Diamond (and anyone interested)

I'm presently having 10 alloy barrels cast, should get them around mid August, these will then need to be machined.
Bore size can be standard or 79mm. Barrel height can be machined to suit standard or 89mm stroke with up to 6.4 inch long rods if wished. Still need machining cost to workout a price, but a ball park figure should be around 740 GBP for the barrel and head bolts/studs. I'll not get into supplying pistons as there is such a variation in cost cast/forged, it's a mine field. You supply me with a piston and I'll get the barrels Nikasil coated to suit. These barrels will be at least half the weight of the original.

feel free to get in touch

John

Hi

Forgot to mention that there is no VAT to be added.

John

If they were A65 barrels I would be very interested. I could supply my own headbolts (3/8 BSF, same as A10)

I've got to laugh at Quaife they are a complete bunch of t**ts, I mailed Len Unwin 4 years ago this is his mail.

We do not make any BSA gearboxes. The cost involved in making a one off would be and I am guessing, in the region of £25000 not something that is really practical.
We do make specialist boxes for Norton and gearkits for Triumph, Velocette, Vincent and all the Japanese companies but all these parts have been made for customers who have exclusive rights to sell them and hence order in quantities which makes it a more practical proposition. If any of this is of interest please get back to me and I will be able to give you more details.
Kind regards
Len Unwin
Quaife Technical Sales

Anyway I'm glad someone got some sense out of them, put me down for a 5 speed box.

Will do, might be worth just editing the 13th word on your post, it's very informative but might get removed by the moderator with the word it contains. Great opening line though LOL.

I'll give it a week before I make a dedicated move, give chance for the racing lads to get interested, if anyone needs any more time, just say.

Also if anyone has any preference to where the gearsets should be, please throw it in the mix.

I'll add a chart and my ratio predictions in a bit.


I am really interested to know if anyone has used these boxes of old, if they have run into any issues and if they will take hard punishment (Frank has already told me I am ideal for testing the box for its robustness. I took that as a compliment although he didn't see it that way ). Also does anyone know if these boxes are running needle bearings and ball bearings or bush and bearings???

Hi Allan

To be honest, I've not really considered anyone just wanting to go for a standard 75mm bore to save on the head bolts/studs and have therefore not done any pull tests to check on the 3/8" BSF thread to support that, although I can probably do this, which would reduce the cost a little.
I can't post any photo's at the moment, but they will look more like the Devimead/SRM barrel with 6 fins rather than the 8 fin BSA style, I went this way to get a better finish between the fins and hopefully make it easier to mould/cast and reduce sand stuck being to the castings.

regards

John

Hi John,

Keeping to a 650 is a personal thing, for me a 750 whilst not only being a little more powerful would have me competing in the 750 class bikes (with the intentions I have with my bike) If I was to go for a alloy barrel I would look at going for a 74.5mm bore (same as Push Rod Tom) which would bring the bikes CC from 654 to about 645cc (I think Tom is running an Iron cylinder and he may be interested too in the alloy version).

I would be looking for a shorter barrel than the standard A65, in the style that the A50 used which was same Rod and stroke lengths but the pin height in the piston is higher.

If this is a go-er I will find out some measurements.

One thing I am really fussy about is the fin shape, I completely dislike the SRM/Devimead shape of barrel which has been squared off at the front. Thats me being picky LOL

Hi Allan

While I can do 74.5mm bore and whatever height you want. I had the pattern made more like the Devimead/SRM its also 6 fin as well, this I did to make it simpler to make and should also give a better quality casting from the mould.
Once I have had the first on machined I'll take some photos and post them. In the mean time I'll also carry out a pull test with a 3/8" BSF 20TPI thread.

regards

John

I must say I am with Allan on the fin shape.

My personal view is that the primary product should be as standard as possible, thereby making use of standard pistons. This is because there is a premium these days on things being kept standard, or at least looking standard.

As for specials, well it would be useful to have a 'upgrade' to something that could be a 700-750cc conversion and if this could be accomplished with a standard looking barrel, I am confident that the market would be greater too.

As ever, just my thoughts....

I would be interested at that price point. I would love my A65 (1970 pre-OIF) to be a 750cc five gear motorcycle.

As Allan says in his first post, the price point for the 5 speed gearbox will be in the region of GBP1,500 or approx. USD2,300. You then need to add on delivery, gaskets, seals, oil plus all the bits you were intending to do but hadn't yet got round to doing etc etc. And that price assumes there are 25 people prepared to pay a deposit to secure this special order.

That being said, Quaife has indicated that the gearbox is a straightforward swap for the existing 4 speed and it is an existing design that has already been used successfully in a BSA A65.

Hi Allan you can now make that two 5 speed gearboxes, lets get it done.

Hi Allen, I did not get a cost for the compete gearbox, just cutting the gears. $2300 sounds high but since Quaife does not sell direct you have to pay their cost and profit and their dealer's profit.
I have not had time to work on this due to regular work and some new triple parts that I need to finish. It will get done as I need a 5 speed for the A74XS and I am too cheap to pay that much.

I am all for people buying and doing whatever they want to their bike, but at US and Australian dollars this would nearly run out at $3000 and unless racing I'm wondering if I would feel satisfied. I live in a very hilly winding area and the 5 speed triumph do do better, but the A65 does manage quite well (1 whole coffee ahead of HD).
I hope you get the 25 needed and look forward to hearing positive results.

HI John
I would be interested in two sets of cylinders when you get them machined. We can get them Nikasil lined here in the states saving you the bother of doing that part. We also would want coarse threads in the cylinder as I do not like fine threads in aluminum. The bore size we are after is 76 mm but if you had them at 75 we can take care of the oversize here.
Ed

Hi Ed

Thank you for the interest. I agree with you comment on fine threads in aluminum and have done pull tests on 5/16" 18 TPI UNC which I plan to use on the 79mm bore and have taken the torque up to 40 lbs/ft and thread in the aluminum was still good, I'm only looking 25 lbs/ft.
No issue with you doing the final bore and coating there as it will simplify the process.
My e-mail address is [email protected] where we can discuss in more detail.

regards

John

John, please excuse my 3/8BSF comment from earlier. I wasn't thinking properly. As per Ed a coarser thread would be better in Alu', my concern has been the bolts themselves, as I had found (in my case) that the original bolts didn't carry enough thread and buggered up the thread in the barrel, Since then I have made my own and never ran into that issue. On a 650 barrel the 3/8 shank is still preferable. You have done very well with taking the 5/16" bolt upto 40 lbs/ft and it not cause damage, 25 lbs/ft is correct for that size of bolt anyway.



Gearbox info.

I have created a chart on Excell, it isn't a fancy one where you can plump your own figures in and it all works out for you etc. This is just a basic table.

(i'll upload it later)

From my recconing, and this should suit the guys with 21/47 gearing and certainly won't harm anyone with standard 20/47 gearing would be the 2.6:1 first gear ratio.

Running a taller gear set like myself will be able to live with it not being lower than that.

The 2.6:1 ratio is on a separate list.

For information, this is my first contrubution to this forum.
I recently purchased a second-hand Quaife 5-speed gearbox with road ratios for my 1971 A65FS. I subsequenly had it serviced and checked by the engineer at Quaife, (in Kent, in south-east England), and I replaced a couple of worn gears.
I live in west London, so I asked nearby Richard at P&M motorcyles to replace and fir the new gearbox, unfortunately, he had too much work on earlier this year and he suggested taking the work to Geoff at SRM, (in west Wales), note that I had used SRM previously; 4 years ago for a complete engine rebuild service.
In all my discusssions and dealings, all three companies, (Quaife, P&M and SRM), were reasonable, patient, understanding and realsitic in their advice and in dealing with my expectations. I would recommend any of the three companies to anyone.
Meanwhile, after SRM's fitting of the gearbox, I rode the bike back to west London and it runs well with a slick gearbox in all five gears.
I can advise further details should anyone need any further info.
Regards,

Dmb, thankyou for your input. Please feel free to share all your experiences with the product, what may seem trivial to you can vital information to someone else.

Please tell us what gear set up your running as in primary and final drive. I know some 71 firebirds came with 18:47 on the final drive which is really low.

Richard @ P&M mentioned to me about someone who purchased a box etc, I think it might have been your good self.

Thankyou for joining us.

One personal question I have is about the length of travel on the lever with the 5 speed. A std 4 speed box has a nice amount of travel, I have found the 5 speed trident and 4 speed Bonneville box to have a shorter range of travel.

Allan are you sure of those 5 speed ratios for the A65? The 4-5th gap seems quite big. I like the std 3-4th spacing because if you spin the things to 7,500 going into top is 6,551 and changing at almost whatever place lower in the power spread it tends to drop you into top with it still in power. EG if you have 50hp at 7000 45 at 7500 and 46 at 6500 and your 4th gear needs 45hp to hold its max speed, changing into top on the 5speed becomes 6,073 where you might only have 40hp and its dead, and not going to go faster, actually going to slow, where as if it was at 6,551 like the std 3-4th you might have 47HP giving 2hp to pick up speed and maybe reach 7,000, and the only way to do that with the 5speed is run 4th over 8,000. In the lower gears it makes proportionally less difference because it requires less HP to maintain lower speeds so some will be left to accellerate with. In my idea of the ideal gearbox the ratios would get closer the higher the gear so it keeps the motor right in its peak power zone. On the road the ratios might be quite fine and top like an overdrive, but racers and performance guys might like a closer 4-5th.

I know what you mean Mark, 1.2**** is a far bigger jump than the original 1.144:1

The whole thing seems to have fallen flat, and to be frank I hav too much work on at the moment that I was getting to the point of not sleeping, so for me I'm sticking with my 4 speed and working on other fun mods.

I concentrated mainly on 1st gear as I found it to be a little low, but as I can't post my Excel file on here (and I can't remember my password for my own website to use that as a host) If you like I can email it to you. It does show the RPM's vs 10mph and 100mph and the drop in RPM.

The gear ratios of the 5 speed (ignoring 1st) can be effective depending on where you make your best torque, if its all low-to-mid range then the box as it stands will be ideal. It's been about 4 months since I rode mine (and I never dyno tested it) but it was making great power from nothing - 6000rpm, it was still pulling just as strong at 6500 RPM (although I would think the torque curve was falling off) and maxed power at 7000rpm. I could easilly afford a 2000RPM drop from 6000-4000 and it would still pull like a train (on more gentle rides I could double shift from 2nd to 4th)

Allen if you have access to one why don't you get your bike dynoed and see what its got and get a graph of the power curve? As it is at 650cc or 670 whatever it is and you could compare it to what other people are getting from a 650. And if you decide to get an alloy cyl get the big bore, because it would cost the same but probably give you more pleasure. The big bore kits need to use smaller bolts and studs so they don't distort the bores when done up, mine has no problem with the sealing. Going from 76mm bore to 79.5mm bore with mine enabled it to go from 57hp to 78HP (both with the 89mm crank) so 818cc (I think) to 883cc the power increase percentage is much more than the cc increase and I think it's because the window under the valves being bigger helps the breathing. A big bore 750 can make heaps of power though we haven't set a data logger up on it to measure an exact number.

Here's Allan's Excel file....

Calculating Optimum Gear Ratio

Cheers Two Alpha.

Mark, yes I intend to dyno the bike when its run in etc (possibly start of next year the way its going) Max HP isn't of great importance to me if I can make maximum torque in all the gears, and hopefully achieve a good top speed. I'd also like to see the change from using a head with a leaking chamber to a good head, I might even break the 7000RPM limit just by having good compression.

Allan

Check this website.
For a few quid you can purchase an excel sheet with the various formulas etc.
Save a lot of time for less than a tenner and gives you a lot of info on all the variables.

http://victorylibrary.com/TRI-5.htm

I have that Kev, the A65 one. It makes calculations for options easy.

Are these gearboxes still a possibility? I'll commit to one.

Thanks

Good grief. I keep hammering my profile. That's a '69 T150 not T160.

Here are some graphs of gear ratios - the 4 speed standard and close ratio, ratios I selected for a 5 speed and Quaife's box. It appears Quaife's 4th gear is too high making it a short gear from 3rd and large reach to 5th.

Exactly! I only concentrated on first - second gear to be changed, but the rest of the transmission doesn't lend itself to neither road work (when using taller gearing) or racing IMO

For racing its as though they don't expect anyone to get into top gear.

ummm if i rode a bike that didnt pull max rpm in top on the fastest part of the track i would sack the mechanic!iv watched over this thead and i still cant see why you would want 5 speed ? std cr boxes are great. i run a tuned hinkey bonnie and i would love just 4 or even 3 gears.

I think your missing my point wak.

I was referring to the spacing between 4th and 5th

I can make a 4 speed work really well on the street, however if someone was to lower 1st an 2nd a touch and squeeze a new 3rd in there. It would be a really sweet box.

A lot of A65 owners up the gearing, it's ideal for touring as your getting good economy and keeping the revs down, it also further defines the need for a better spaced 3rd gear in a 5 speed box.

Hi Allan,
As there hasn't been much said about Quaife remaking 5 speed gearboxes for A65's on the forum I thought that I would contact Richard at P and M Motorcycles myself.
I was more than a little disappointed with his reply as he seemed to think that SRM should as he put it "commissioned Quaife to produce the 5 speed clusters", though he did say that if there were enough orders Quaife would make a batch of 25 and then the price would come down to about £1.250.00 plus VAT.
It would seem that nobody wants to go out and actually make them, what really gets me going is that companies like Nova Racing and Quaife are more than happy to make them for the BSA and Triumph threes and even Velocette's but not A50/65's, surely the total output of A50/65's was around the same if not more than either the three cylinders or Velocette's singles.
Is there any real interest in the making of a 5 speed box for our bikes and if there is how can we get one of these companies to make them?
I look forward to some serious and positive answers.

Hi,


No; with respect, you aren't understanding the situation.

1. Quaife have already said it "wants to go out and actually make them".

2. What Quaife don't want to do, based on their first-hand experience in the school of financial hard knocks, is front up the money for them.

3. Whether we like it or not, the trade's perception of twin owners is they're tight. Do you have just twenty-five A65 owners climbing over each other for a 5-speed 'box? I rest this part of my case, m'lud.

4. Triumph twin owners are perceived as equally tight. Like A65's pottered a few miles on fine days by middle-aged men, T140's and TR7's used the same way don't need 5-speed gearboxes. If Triumph hadn't fitted thousands of twins with 5-speed 'boxes as standard, you'd also struggle to find twenty-five Triumph twin owners fighting over them.


5. Most "BSA and Triumph threes" have 5-speed 'boxes as standard so I assume you're mixing them up with the 6-speeds? Bottom line is, as opposed to twin owners, there are enough triple racers and rich road riders willing to put their hands in their pockets for that sort of money on a regular basis.

6. On the basis of the above and usual British bike parts middlemans' mark-ups, whoever acts as one will need to pay Quaife about fifteen grand plus VAT for twenty-five sets. Along with Quaife, P&M and SRM choose not to commit that sort of money for something that, in their experience, will do nothing for many years but sit on a shelf gathering dust.

7. You got eighteen grand doing nothing better? Put your money where your computer is and be that middleman. You stand to make 100% profit (hollow laugh).

Hth.

Regards,

Lightning' very serious point made about quiafe. I don't think (but please don't put my head on the chopping block if I am wrong) the triples had much more in the way of BHP (from stock) than a lightning or spitfire. I think if Quaife did make these boxes for off the shelf purposes, with the amount of A65 owners around the world compared to R3/Trident or Velocettes sales in theory should be a lot greater (pro-rata) granted that most of the A65 owners would be happy with their lot without spending too much money! on the other hand, A65's (as well as A10's) are the more popular classic touring bikes, A50's (poor little things) need all the help they can get on the road especially when maintaining speed with the A65's.

The only thing I can think of when the masses are considering a purchase of this size are the re-sell value of the bike. A prospective purchaser may not want to pay an additional £1300 on top of the bikes value for the a particular bike. On the other hand, said purchaser may do so because he knows he is getting the 5 speed box.

However, meantime we shall wait and see what happens.

I have spoken to SRM at cadwell park about the quaife box, from memory they were using one on their bike, I asked them if they had considered selling the 5 speed boxes and their answer was no.

Stuart, Sorry. I had started writing before your post was submitted, I think we are talking the same page - but you say it far better than I do

The stump up cost to quife would be a good deal more than £18,000, well it would be for 25 anyway.

Get a grip, 99% of the boxes sold for threes ,manxs,goldies,velos etc are for racing 5 and 6 speed,the people who race these are serious spending 30k on the bike dosnt matter,no one races a65s at a serious level with good reason,no ones going to tie up 30k on a65 gearboxes when 99.99% of riders are quiet happy with the 4 speeds.

Hi Allan,


No worries.

I based my "£18,000" figure on £15k + £3k VAT being roughly half the retail £1,250 of each set multiplied by 25, 100% being the usual markup from wholesale to retail. If you're saying that Quaife's unit price would be closer to the proposed £1,250 retail, the prospect of any business fronting up the 25 sets money is even less likely, because businesses must make a profit or they aren't long-term.

Hth.

Regards,

Agreed, and quite possibly part of the reason why this hasn't been pursued before.

I appreciate your racing background Wak, but there are quite a few A65's that enter the racing scene, I think it is also taken more seriously in USA. The A65 within the 650 class (reduce the bore) has a lot of potential with its slightly over square motor. With some serious development, there is no reason why it can't be a worthy choice to race.
IMO

Anyway, for anyone road riding or racing, and those doing serious mileage it is well worth considering. But the possible retail of this would be a short term opportunity unless the idea really takes off. Meanwhile its a case of publicising that this is/will be a possible purchase before too long.

I think the limited use of A65s in racing compared to T140s is because of their 100cc deficit. Once that is corrected, five speed gearboxes will be more sought after. Last time I checked, AHRMA does not have a 650cc class. Does the UK?

im not knocking a65s i have 6 of them,they are my favourate brit twin, and i know they can be made to go very fast,sidecar lads still do ok with them,but the point i was trying to make is the people who make them fast are the sort of people who can make a yamaha r1 crank fit in a bantam , and they are not the people who will go and buy a £1500 gearbox.
Me in some sort of action 1990ish 880cc TZ 350

I'm not an expert on road racing but I'm pretty sure that AHRMA has a class called Classic 60's and I have seen A-65's race in that class. They also allow overbores. Admittedly, a BSA nut has an uphill battle in any twin class. Especially against Triumph which has a great amount of support from suppliers of racing type parts and services.
Despite that situation a few of us are carrying the BSA flag into battle! PRT

Hi Allan, glad you are more positive than others about the remaking of a Quaife 5 speed box.
As I said at the start of this post I and a friend are definitely interested in 2 boxes, and I am sure there must be interest around the world for 23 further gearboxes, just look the large amount of A50/65's that are still on the road and are raced weather that be as solos or in sidecar racing.
My rebuild of my 1972 Devimead BSA Lightning is taking shape and if companies like Bob Newby Racing, Megacycle Cams, Carrillo rods, Pazon Ignitions and SRM can make parts for A50/65's and make a profit I don't see why someone can't do the same with remaking a Quaife 5 speed box.
Oh and Stuart the BSA Rocket 3 never had a 5 speed box fitted as standard except in the X75 engine, and the Trident never had a 5 speed box until late in 1972.

"I think if Quaife did make these boxes for off the shelf purposes,"

To my knowledge all of the Quaife gear box sets for British motorcycles were commissioned by the like of Mick Hemings, ,John Surtees and others in the trade. I retired my Triumph 500 twin for the lack of a 5 speed. I developed the 500 as far as iI could using a 4 speed, and I was a day late when I went to get one from Mick Hemings. He needed to get buyers for 10 sets, and the last ten sets had sat on his shelves for nearly ten years.

I doubt seriously if you could garner a 100% profit from this kind of exercise. What I have found is one or two people who need a specific ratio gearbox get together and order the minimum amount to get them made. They keep a couple of sets and flog the balance, often to unsuspecting buyers who only see "5 speed."

A word to the wise... make sure the 5 speed you are buying has ratios you need. For example if used for racing in AHRMA often a street ratio will serve you better than a close ratio. Most of the AHRMA races are dashes, with few laps available to make up the time you loose by getting into turn one in tenth place. IMHO for most AHRMA racing is a drag race to get into turn one first and then to hold on to that position. There is little time to make up time lost trying to make your way through riders who have no set line or are not proficient riders. Obviously a very close ratio gear set is all but useless on the street.

I say this because if someone is looking for a 5 speed for the street, often they find the set they purchased has a first gear closer to their stock boxes third gear. Their dream has turned into a nightmare. The bike is unrideable. This is the case of many of the Vincent 5 speed sets available today as the close ratio set not suitable for street use.
John Healy

Lightning ,i think you will find the 71/72 rocket3 has the early quaife 5 spped box, the designation is A75RV,about 250 were made,triples on line as the info.I agree with John, road boys will not want race ratios and race boys will recoil at road ratios,does this mean 25 of each ratio ?

Silly me I should know better than to allow you boys to steer me off of the subject, 5 speed gearboxes for A65's.

"does this mean 25 of each ratio ?"
In most cases, Yes.

Lightning — "I look forward to some serious and positive answers."

Sometimes to give an answer you need to define the question and explain your answer using relative examples... I think all of those who have responded have done just that. Now if you are serious it's time to man-up and put the £'s on the table.

You could do what Tim Joyce did to his 500 when he faced the same problem I did. Cut off the transmission of the back of a A65 motor, and either run it with a Triumph non-unit gearbox adapted for a 5 speed, a Nourish Norton gear box adapted for a Triumph 5 speed gear set, or do what Tim did and weld on a 5 speed gearbox casting to the back of the 500 motor. None of these will set you back what it would cost you to have 24 gear sets sitting around looking for homes.

Still, a five speed road box with a slightly taller first gear would be better than the stock four speed, yes? At least you would have four racing gears rather than three and you could possibly beat everyone else to the first corner for the remaining procession around the track.
Actually, only 25 of the first four ratios, the fifth would remain 1:1.
ARMA Classic 60's 650 10.4.3d - Gearboxes must be mechanically restricted to 4 speeds.
Not much point in a five speed for that.

Fun topic for sure.. First of all YES and YES a road bike gear set is not good on the race track and vice versa..

I am the poor sot that made 5 speeds to fit pre-unit BSA gear boxes and I can tell you there is no way I could ever break even. But I will say they are a huge improvement..! The gears I used are Triumph gear sets which are now hard to find (good ones that is). And for the racer I got the close reatio gear set, which works well.

For racing there are tracks where the 6 speed is king and there are places the 5 speed is better. Many of the 500 CC racers run the 6 speed here in the US. At Daytona the 6 speed is a plus, but at Sears Point and Miller the 5 speed is better. It takes "X" seconds of time to upshift and then again to downshift. And it really depeds on the way the engine is tuned. Some race engines have a somewhat narrow power range and they need more gears.. some have wider power range and can use less. But look at the RPM changes between shifts and that tells a big story. I was just watching some Barber race videos, and was shocked to see RPM drops in the 2,000 rpm range.. not good at all and the one bike had trouble pulling top gear due to it. Unless you have seen the difference having closer ratios in 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th makes, you really do not know..

But I can say the same on the street. My one street bike (BB Goldie) could not pull 3rd gear up in the mountains and I was killiing it using 2nd gear. But once the 5 speed go put in, the engine was so happy pulling 3rd g ear which was a lot faster speed than the old 2nd gear. At sea level on flat ground, the 4 speed is OK.

So yes in the end it is the use needed that dictates what you need.

Cost wise, $2,500 for a "plug N play" set up like that is just right..
Ron

There's a Disney film called Bambi that had a saying slightly updated by me "if you can't say something intelligent don't say nothing at all"

"When you're in hole, stop digging" seems more appropriate ...

Hi Wak,


198 in 1971. The requirement was for 200 of both 5-speed T150 and 5-speed A75 ('V' and 'RV', the latter were converted 4-speed engines already built) to homologate the 'box for AMA racing. Subsequently, 5-speeds were fitted to T150's as standard from March '72 and three '72 R3's were built with 5-speeds before the engines became Hurricanes. Then over 7,000 T160's were also built ...

Regards,

I offer my opinion here for those thinking they might like a 5-speed gear set for their street machine, and this is an opportunity to get one.

Lightning, you answered your question in your first post where you said that you brought this up with Richard Pecket. As with all of the brands you mentioned, and those you didn't like Vincent, someone stepped up and put the money on the table. That is how it works and that is the one "serious and positive answer" you will garner. No offense meant, and I am sorry that it is not acceptable to you.

I have had more than a passing interest in the UK "5 speed" game. We recently worked with a Vincent customer who HAD TO have a 5 speed and got caught up in this. Some fast talking UK trader/racer/huckster sold him one. A very close ratio one at that. Seems they had to have 10 or so made and had a few extras to flog. The bike was totally unrideable on the street. Totally!

I talked to John Surtees, the customer stepped-up and a BUNCH of dollars were exchanged. John had Quaife make us up a kit we wanted where we replaced the lower 3 gears with ratios more suitable for the street. I say this because people read these threads, think this is a great idea for their street bike only seeing 5 speed, and buy in on the 25 build. This, not knowing, or understanding, what they are getting. I have seen this too many times not to bring it up!

I have on the shelf several sets of Phil Pick/Richard Pecket close ratio 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear sets for the stock Triumph 5 speed made by David Holder. For a Triumph 750 twin, and the type of racing done in the States they are totally un-useable. Every one we let use a set, including our rider Jerry Wood who has had more than 40 years of racing Daytona both in modern and classic racing, removed them after the very first racing weekend. They might work on a highly tuned triple on the Isle of Mann, but not on the very short circuit racing found here.

Sorry Ron, they didn't even work at Daytona!!!!!!! If you were the only one on the track, sure. But when we ran Sportsman 750 there were 2 waves of 40 riders. To get in the front wave near the front you would have had to have raced at one of the smaller tracks, thousands of miles from our local track, the previous year. Other wise you would be at the back of the first pack, or worse in the second wave. You were also in a class where with only having attended one weekend of Racing School you could race Daytona. This isn't the days where we started as a novice on a 250 and worked your way up to Amateur and then Expert.

So if you didn't get into turn one near the front you spent the next 6 laps working your way through people who had no idea of the line through the infield. The fast lines through the Daytona infield are not intuitive and this would find you over taking a novice rider (aka Squid) cutting directly across the racing line. This finally got Jerry a few years back where a novice rider doing something stupid in the International Horseshoe on a modern bike high sided in front of him. He ended up with his femur and the bulk of his pelvis blown-up into his intestines.

So besides matching the ratios to the torque curve of the engine, whether it be for street use or road racing, which is essential, there is more to think about when selecting ratios. The heyday of AHRMA at Daytona with elbow to elbow racing with novices using lines know only to themselves and the guardian angel that protects them, is not the Isle of Man where you might pass a half a dozen racer per lap.

Lightning sorry if all this offends your sensibilities. And Stuart I have been in holes few people have dug themselves out of...
John Healy

Just thought I'd add my 2c here...I agree that the stock A65 ratios are fine for the street. Having said that, and not being a racer, adding a fifth gear between 2nd and 3rd would improve things greatly for the road. At least the kind of roads I like. A 21 tooth gearbox sprocket, then a slightly lower 1st, 2nd as is or slightly lower, a 3rd between original 2nd and 3rd, then a 4th slightly higher than original 3rd, then of course, 5th. Thus eliminating the annoying gap between 2nd and 3rd. Other benefits of these ratios with the 21 tooth would be less clutch slipping or disengaging to slow when in slow traffic on chugging op steep lanes, and shifting down from top to add revs to climb grades not being as dramatic.
Now, if someone could offer that for a few hundred bucks I would be going for my wallet!
I completely understand the financial roadblocks but I can wish...
Slightly different ratios for 2nd and 3rd would do almost as well.

Bill

Bill

An A65 with a CR box has very nice gap (or lack of a gap ) between 2nd and 3rd. Just about perfect on the twisty roads in SE Ohio. Down side, you better not mind slipping the clutch a bit to get moving. And that is with gearing that is slightly taller than 21/47.

RichB:

At Daytona with the 750 short rod we used 22/34 or 32, and depending on the wind on the back stretch could have use 30. Calculate that 1st gear ratio with a close ratio box, slipping the clutch, and trying to get into turn one going past 40 riders, or more trying to get into turn one in the top 6.

Something to consider is that 5-speed gearboxes are readily available for around the prices being discussed in this thread, in the form of used Ducati 600 Monsters. In addition to the 5th gear you get more h.p. and disk brakes.

It's fun to fantasize about things that are very unlikely to happen, like getting 25 people to front the money necessary to finance the production of a BSA gearbox with ratios that all 25 people will agree on. But, if your BSA 650 isn't doing for you all the things you would like it to do, you might instead consider adding a bike to your stable that will fill that performance gap better than a 5th gear on your BSA would.