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Ok folks, this is a start to restoring kurt fisher's thread. It's a little bit raw, I'll dress it up if it becomes necessary.
Hope you like it, feel free to post away per the original thread.

Just acquired a '71 A65 (pages 1 to 8)



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Thank you! clap

I really appreciate it, Two Alpha and everyone else involved. You flatter me that it's a restoration, more like a fix-up and get running. Of course, it's never that simple. Some things get fixed to restoration standards, like the frame welding repairs and reinforcing.

As a point of reference, here's the bike as first seen on Cape Cod June 2011:

[Linked Image]

To pick up where we left off the other day ...

Correct BSA chain guard acquired on eBay, with thanks to Jon for the pics comparing the Triumph and BSA items side-by-side:

[Linked Image]


Rear brake pedal stop fabricated and adjusted:

[Linked Image]


Mufflers bolted up and attached to head pipes with 1&3/4" clamps"

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Now to move on to the wiring, I've put it off for too long. (BTW, I sold the so-called "negative ground" LED tail lamp to a forum member for his metric project.)

FYI, all my pics of this project are in a Flickr set at http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDNTtqB

Last edited by kurt fischer; 03/29/13 12:20 pm.

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I have really enjoyed watching your progress. I got a 72 A65 about a month ago. It was in a bit better shape than yours but still needed some work. I am in the process of tearing down and cleaning everything, replacing fork seals, rebuilding carbs etc...

I was wondering if you have re-wired the bike yet? If so could you pm me some pictures of where the wiring harness is placed. I am having a heck of a time getting the right placement. I took the original harness (came with the bike) and tested everything and re-wrapped it but have no clue how to run it again. Also, did you install a electronic ignition or did you stick with the original points?

I'm excited to see how yours come out. I will post some pictures of mine on this forum shortly.

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Thanks, Joey, I have fans! grin

Seriously, if my experiences can help anyone, I'm glad. Sounds like you're having fun with it already. Looking forward to your pics.

I have not made up the wire harness yet. I think of it more as wiring the components rather than making a harness. The bike came with some wretched scraps of the original wiring, so I am replacing everything, all wires, all connectors. (Not using britishwiring.com, sorry, I just order generic supplies from delcity.com)

All that remains of the original wiring:
[Linked Image]

Do you know the GABMA resource page?
http://www.gabma.us/page2.htm
Scroll down and check out Electrical Sys articles -- really great info.

Also, this britbike forum has convinced me of the need for "single point ground" or "SPG" -- in other words, don't rely on the frame to connect your grounds, instead, run so called "ground" wires to a "single point ground" to complete the circuit.

Back to your questions, I'm just going to run the wires where they make sense and don't rub anything and don't get pinched by the tank. I use lots of split loom to protect them.

I'm going to stay with points ignition on the BSA. One of my Triumphs has points, one has a Boyer. Gotta say, I prefer the points, because, being old, I like working on things I understand, if only slightly, and can adjust and troubleshoot myself.

Recommended reading:
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428872&nt=4&page=1

I do run the Tympanium regulator/rectifier on all three Brit bikes, replacing the original rectifier and Zener. So in some cases, I do prefer a black box.

Hope that helps. No doubt others have views and experience they can contribute to what you're doing. Does anyone else have a tank off an OIF BSA to show where the wires are run?

Last edited by kurt fischer; 04/09/13 1:23 pm.

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Great that will help me when I get to that part of the build. I just finished rebuilding the forks and thought I had tightened the bottom allen screw enough but as soon as I put in fluid the right side started leaking. When I tried to tighten it the inside nut just spun inside the fork tube.
All this to say HOW THE HECK DO YOU KEEP THE INSIDE NUT FROM SPINNING SO THE ALLEN SCREW CAN BE TIGHTENED!?!?!?!?!?

As you can tell I am a little frustrated.

Any help/pictures would be amazing.

Thanks

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An air impact ratchet? Maybe???

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I always found that a bit of upward pressure on the bottom of the outer member kept the rod from turning. They do make a tool to hold things in place, but I've never needed it.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

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Originally Posted by Rickman
An air impact ratchet? Maybe???


Indeed, I use an air impact.

Not that I'm recommending this technique to anyone or suggesting that it's a good way or the right way to do it. Let the rebukes and abuse begin! laugh

Usually, with the stanchions (inner fork tubes) assembled on the bike and pinched into the triple clamps, I position the o-ring sealing washer thing on the bottom of the damper rod with a bit of grease. Then, working quickly, I insert the socket head (Allen head) screw (with the hex bit already inserted into the head of the screw) into the bottom of the lower leg (slider), pour the proper amount of fork oil into the slider, slide the slider onto the tube, screw in the socket head screw by hand, attach the air impact wrench to the bit, and then give the trigger on the air impact a burst.

If the forks are off the the bike, I still use the air impact, you just have to devise a way to keep the lower legs from rotating when you apply the air impact.


Last edited by kurt fischer; 04/26/13 12:40 pm.

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Use a 13/16" socket (3/8" drive) with a long extension and pass it down the stanchion from the top. The socket engages on the hex at the top of the damper tube and you tighten the Allen screw against that.
In terms of the Dowty seal at the bottom of the forks (through which the Allen screw goes) my way of locating the seal is to take the slider when off the bike, pass through it from the bottom a length of stiff wire (i use a straigthened out wire coat hanger)--long enough so that the wire sticks out at the top of the slider and then thread the seal down the wire. Jiggle the wire around a little and the seal fits nicely in the recess at the bottom of the slider.Then carefully remove the wire.
Then gently ease the slider up over the stanchion and engage the Allen screw in the end of the damper tube.
Did a couple this way on my 1973 TR5T only yesterday.
Works for me!
HTH

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Sounds good -- and highly preferable!


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Thank you all for the suggestions. I will give the socket with the extensions on it a go. If it doesn't work I will give the air impact a go.

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So after pulling the lowers off I noticed that something didn't look right with the fork tubes. Pulled the tripple tree apart and low and behold both fork tubes are bent!
Got to love not knowing anything about the past of a 41 year old motorcycle.

So new fork tubes go on the list of things to do. I simultaneously love and hate my A65.

Kurt how is yours coming along?

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Always a surprise around the next corner, eh what, Joey? I've had my share grin

There's another recent thread on the forum about fork tubes, about EMGO tubes and what to watch out for, look around and it should pop up -- can't look for it right now myself.

As to my A65, I've been putting off wiring up the electrics, and lo, and behold, another thread ...

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=488350&page=1

... brought up some useful components to use, like a fuse panel, and relays with fuses built in, so those parts are on the way to me now. Another demonstration that procrastination pays dividends ...

Last edited by kurt fischer; 05/08/13 12:38 pm.

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Suprises are what make it interesting. My 71 Lightning came with what was described as a new wiring harness. What I found in the harness consisted of soldered together pieces of new wire. Like they only sell wire in 6 inch lengths.

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Found this *fabulous* taillamp at the Auburn meet Sunday, a beauty, eh what?

[Linked Image]

Figure I'll mount it here maybe ...

[Linked Image]

... or better yet, here ...

[Linked Image]

... after a bit of sheet metal work ...

Last edited by kurt fischer; 06/04/13 8:24 pm.

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Hella fuse panel mounted, and Tympanium secured inside the left side cover. The right coil was contacting the rear fender, so I lifted it up about 1/4", hope the seat clears.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by TR6Ray
The Hella Fuse block showed up today.

The back is pretty much wide open, but could be mounted on a bit of rubber to help seal if desired.

The slots on the sides where the terminals go through the case are not molded into the plastic, so water and dust can enter there.


Ray -- I sealed it up with some silicone sealant.


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Got me a UK tank for the Beezah [smilee]

[Linked Image]


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Don't forget the support bracket that goes underneath in the front of the tank. Without it, these tanks were quite prone to cracking.

Dave

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Thanks, Dave, I recall the discussions of the bracket and read the recent posts about the 5/16-24 bolts. In fact, I need to collect all of the mounting hardware.


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Took the UK tank to Don Hutchinson to have him check it out.

[Linked Image]

Got it back 10 days later, media blasted, pin holes fixed, filler neck replaced, pressure tested: all good. (Thanks, Don!)

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Bit of Bondo next.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 11/27/13 10:15 am.

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Filled the dings, sanded all over.

[Linked Image]

Next step, primer.


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Today I re-started the BSA after 18 months. (Recall that after the first start up I discovered the broken frame member.) So it's finally back together, wiring done, remote filter installed in the return line, pretty much all together. I primed the oil lines, pumped some oil into the rocker feed, squirted some oil onto the rings, poured in fresh fuel, tickled, and two kicks later, it was running well, with an immediate, strong oil return to the tank. These mufflers are very quiet, you can really hear the exhaust leaking at the head pipe connection. The motor settled down to ca. 600rpm idle, with good throttle response. I restarted a few times, then put it back on the lift to drain the start-up oil, change the filter, and clean the sump screen.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Next:
Fresh oil.
Bolt the tank on. (This one (thanks, Alex) or the "Home" tank.)
Oil tank breather hose.
Finish grafting the Britax taillamp onto the fender.
Figure out a front fender.
Fix and install the seat.
Needs a speedo cable.
Shorter throttle cables.
Rear view mirrors.
Ride.
Check over, tighten up.
Get state inspection.
Ride more.


Last edited by kurt fischer; 07/16/14 7:38 am.

Kurt

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Lookin' good, Kurt! :bigt
Since you have a painted rear fender you can get something for the front at a reasonable price.
With the Mics on mine, I make my own throttle cables. I start with cables sold for go-carts. These come with only the fitting at the throttle end and can be cut to size. Solder on the little barrel at the carb end, and you"re good to go.
There's a guy in Canada who sells seat covers on eBay for $50. Good quality cover, at least the '71 is easy to install. laugh


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

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That makes me sad that I sold my OIF Beezer..... I swear I'll never sell anything else ..... Revised " I pray I'll never have to sell anything else"


https://wadeschields.tumblr.com/

Jack of all trades . Master of fun! wink

Beer is not the Answer.... Its the Question..... The answer is YES

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Thanks, guys! Look close enough and you will see some Triumph parts that have snuck in here and there.

David, thanks for the encouragement, I used to solder up my own cables, so I'm thinking I'll shorten these at the carb end, though it would be nice to have some new barrel ends on hand before I go hacking at them. For the seat cover, I like the "quilted" design used on the '72 BSA, BCS has them at a reasonable price. For a front fender, I'm looking at Glas from the Past http://www.gftpstore.com/Other-Parts_c10.htm Their Norton fender looks like it might work well http://www.gftpstore.com/Norton-Front-fender-NORFDRA-NORFDRA.htm

Wade, yes, keep that vow of keeping. I've said it before of my '52 Triumph, T100 25998, where are you now?

A view of the wiring: I went with in-line fuses rather than the fuse block, the battery is a SLA like the one in my Verizon FIOS box. Might put in relays later.

[Linked Image]

Oil filter as supplied by DMadigan, I like it a lot. To change the element, I unbolt the bracket mount and tip it out over a drain pan, quick and easy, uses a Hi-Flo HF-116 element.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by kurt fischer; 07/16/14 12:06 pm.

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Quote
David, thanks for the encouragement, I used to solder up my own cables, so I'm thinking I'll shorten these at the carb end


Not a good idea for several reasons.

1) the carb end is generally cast on to the cable so actuall can not be moved as such
2) it is a funny shape sort of a ball ended cylinder which is needed to allow the cable to rotate as you pull it, This shape nipple is not available so you will have to turn one up yourself from brass.
3) It is a zinc/ bismuth alloy so if it should fall off it will do a lot less damage as it passes through the engine than your brass one will.
4) if the throttle nipple falls off you can jerry rig the throttle to get yourself home which is a lot easier that trying to do the same with the slide.
5) the throttle nipple is a plain drum which can easily be turned up from some brass rod.
6) If the throttle nipple falls off there is almost zerro chance that the engine will injest the cable as the spring should slam the slide closed.


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http://www.motoparthub.com/01_0012_...gle&gclid=CPrD2t3jy78CFWrl7AodtG4ADg
This is just an example, these fittings are readily available and VERY easy to solder in place. Any 40W gun, acid flux, and some plumbing solder will do just fine. Similar fittings are used at the throttle end in conjunction with a barrel fitting.
The go-cart cables I use have the throttle fitting cast on. They're a bit smaller than our stock fittings, but they work. If you must replace them, a bit of torch heat will melt the whole fitting.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Quote
David, thanks for the encouragement, I used to solder up my own cables, so I'm thinking I'll shorten these at the carb end


Not a good idea for several reasons.


Thanks, Trevor, say no more!

David, thanks for the link. Not sure which way I'll go with the throttle cables. The in-line adjusters are very close to the twist grip end, not enough length there for the shortening. Maybe my local vintage dealer has some stock length cables I can buy. ("Buy" as in pay money -- The horror).

Last edited by kurt fischer; 07/17/14 7:45 am.

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The cables with in-line adjusters are made for Triumph. Probably why they are too long.
I've never had a problem with self-fabricated cables, including a T150 clutch cable.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
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Ah, Triumph parts. The cables were the right length for the high handlebar the bike had when I got it. No telling what other mix-and-match parts are on it, and I've since added some Triumph parts from my stores.

"Before" -- as first seen three years ago.

[Linked Image]


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Got the seat covered, came out better than I expected, just a little lumpy on the sides. The foam was in good shape, I stripped and painted the pan, and installed the '72 style "quilted" cover, supplied by BCS. Now to trim off the excess fabric. Definitely more enjoyable than working on exhaust leaks at the head.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 08/27/14 10:44 am.

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Home Market tank installed, painted Silver Blue Titanium, VHT Engine Enamel. I couldn't get a final heavy wet coat, so it came out kind of semi-gloss, which is fine with me, more like the way I remember the original paint. It's a tank with a center seam and rearward petcock mounting, installation was straightforward with the mounting kit that Coventry Spares supplies. I might slide the tank back a bit to close up the seat gap a little. The styling strips are available, just have to decide if I want to fork over the cash, about $90 from what I've seen so far.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 08/25/14 9:10 am.

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Kurt,

Looks great. I also have a 71 Lightning with the Home Market tank, but without the seam. IMHO they are the best looking tanks. Are the rubber pads on the sides glued on ? Mine came with them, they looked like someone used a half a tube of adhesive on each side. Since I had the tank painted I never put them back.

Again great work on your project.

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Thanks, Gary. I bought these knee pads new recently, both Coventry Spares and BCS stock them. I used clear silicone sealant to glue them on. The paint is my own spray can job. But first I brought the tank to Don Hutchinson to blast it, solder in a new filler neck, check all threads, and pressure test: all good.

I had the bright idea to paint the tank with VHT Engine Enamel, it's very tough and chemical resistant. VHT primer, color coat, and clear. Then I read the rest of the instructions, that the paint needs to be cured at 200* F for an hour to achieve full durability. Then there was the matter of a little Bondo that I had applied, which I found can take heat up to 180*. So ... not wanting to risk it in the kitchen oven, I picked a sunny day, set the tank in a cardboard box, covered it with a glass plate, with a candy thermometer on top of the tank, and maintained 175* for an hour or so. Figure that's close enough for this bike wink

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 08/27/14 10:45 am.

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Nice to see a problem/situation taken care of without resorting to just throwing money at it.

:bigt

Gordon in NC

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 08/25/14 10:58 am.

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Thanks, Gordon, decided to put time into the bike before money.

I wanted an "old fashioned" tail lamp assembly, and found the Britax at the British Bike Meet last year for $5, so what it had been hacked in half. I re-wired the lamp, cut a new lens gasket out of a wide rubber band ... you get the idea ... JB Weld instead of paying someone to weld ... . Then I wanted a '50s-looking mudflap on the rear, so I cut one out of a NOS mudflap I had bought 39 years ago but never installed on my '75 Chevy pick-up.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 08/26/14 8:16 am.

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Got the A65L on the road today, just three years, three months, and ten days since starting the project. Out a few miles for state inspection, then back home to adjust cables and such. Nothing leaked, nothing fell off, it runs strong, idles well, shifts fine, clutch is good, electrics working ... .

Aside from that, I like it, I like the way it rides, the gearing feels taller than my Triumphs. It's been a while since I synched twin carbs, so I have to start from the beginning again on that. Since my last post, I found that the gas tank leaked at the low point on the left side, so off again, flushed and dried, and took it to Don Hutchinson to weld and inspect and pressure test. Now to chase down some details and ride it. Thanks to everyone for help and support the past three plus years.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

At my local Harley shop for state inspection:

[Linked Image][


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Nice machine "with sensible mods". I am glad it didn't get seized by morans and turned into a bobber.
Hope it gives you long good service.

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THAT'S a NICE looking machine!

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Good result, Kurt, well done!

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Nicely done, Kurt.

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Nice work. I love that color.


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Thanks, everyone. Will post up as I put more miles on it.


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great read. Thanks

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When I started this project, I decided to get it running rather than tearing the motor down for rebuild, and ride it and see what happens. Yesterday I found out what happens. grin

As you may recall, last week I took a short ride to get my state inspection. Yesterday I decided it was time to venture a little farther, besides being a nice fall day for a ride on back roads. At five miles, I stopped for gas in Lexington, then continued on to Concord. Another seven miles as I was entering Concord Center, it was "uh-oh" time when the oil pressure indicator light shone red. Parked it in Monument Square across from the town hall, and beheld the oil-soaked rear tire, and some oil dripping from the engine sprocket area. One call to AMA roadside assistance brought Ironhorse Motorcycle Transport to me an hour or so later. In the meantime, it was a pleasant place to pass an hour, fall foliage, historic buildings, people passing, a Porsche driver came over to admire the bike. Could have been worse. Especially what with the oiled tire.

Back home, I left the bike in the driveway and went inside to get out of my riding gear (that's right, I'm a "dress-for-the crash-not-the-ride" kind of guy, along with "All-the-Gear-All-the-Time"), and whip up some lunch, reflecting on my good fortune.

Back outside, I washed the oiled tire and de-greased the motor, dried things off, and rolled the bike into the garage and onto the lift. I drained 26 oz. of oil from the motor sump, and drained the oil tank sump, too: one drop came out of the oil tank. So I figure that while I was riding, once the tank was empty, the oil light came on, after I had blown a couple of quarts out the overflow hole onto the tire.

Nothing jumped out at me, that is, nothing obvious in the sumps or on the screens, or in the return line oil filter. Then I gave it a rest overnight.

Today I pulled off the oil lines, the oil union, the OPRV, and the warning light sender. There was a little ball of lint behind the OPRV, that's all I could see. I had planned to pull the exhaust off anyway to chase down the exhaust leaks at the head. I'd say it's time to have a look at the oil pump. (Note to self: next BSA project, have a look at the oil pump before running.)

More news as it happens ...


Last edited by kurt fischer; 09/30/14 4:11 pm.

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Is be saying, note to self check and strip the motor whilst it's mostly apart.

Kurt I'm glad you've got the old gal running, what was the inspection at the HD shop? Is it like our MOT's where the bike gets checked over for road worthiness?

The oil pump/ball and spring looks like it could be the problem. And it sounds like it wet sumped and pushed all the oil out of the breather.


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Thanks, Allan, I'm heading toward the oil pump. As to stripping the motor, that could be my winter project. Right now, it looms like heavy lifting, so I'll still proceed step-wise for now.

Yes, vehicle safety inspection for roadworthiness, the procedure is quite extensive, I doubt that many bikes get the full treatment for the $15 you pay the shop, with hourly labor rates running $75~$100 hereabouts. The regs for Massachusetts, scroll down to 4.06 for your reading enjoyment:
http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/source/mass/cmr/cmrtext/540CMR4.pdf


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The problem is with your return. This much is obvious.

First, check that your return filter is connected the right way around.

Then double check

Then triple check

Then check and make sure your oil tank is properly vented.

Ask me how I know.


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Originally Posted by Alex
The problem is with your return. This much is obvious.

First, check that your return filter is connected the right way around.

Then double check

Then triple check

Then check and make sure your oil tank is properly vented.

Ask me how I know.
Would a problem with the vent also cause oil to be forced out under the cylinder base gasket ?

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If it can't expel the crank case cases quickly enough the engine will try and breath out of the next easiest point, often the cylinder base gasket. If the cam isn't timed properly it won't be opening for long enough.


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Originally Posted by Gary Szucs
Would a problem with the vent also cause oil to be forced out under the cylinder base gasket ?


If the oil tank isn't vented adequately, the result is wet-sumping. Oil will try to find any way out of the crankcase it can: the breather, the primary seal and any leaking gaskets. It'll start preferentially at the bottom...


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Originally Posted by Alex
Originally Posted by Gary Szucs
Would a problem with the vent also cause oil to be forced out under the cylinder base gasket ?


If the oil tank isn't vented adequately, the result is wet-sumping. Oil will try to find any way out of the crankcase it can: the breather, the primary seal and any leaking gaskets. It'll start preferentially at the bottom...
Thanks..Mine just started at the base gasket and also ATF splattered on the top of the tank after a ride. Will start checking.

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Originally Posted by Alex
If the oil tank isn't vented adequately, the result is wet-sumping. Oil will try to find any way out of the crankcase it can: the breather, the primary seal and any leaking gaskets. It'll start preferentially at the bottom...


Good to know, I will check.

Lots to check. Thanks.


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Hi Kurt
You said "There was a little ball of lint behind the OPRV, that's all I could see."

That could be your smoking gun, if the OPRV sticks all the oil "feed" will be diverted to the sump, and your pressure will vanish.
Best of luck


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Thanks, Gavin, not sure what it was, maybe 1/8" across, soft, like cotton lint, resting in the cavity behind the OPRV. Guess I'll clean the valve and clean out all passages in the casting.

I checked the oil tank breather as Alex advised, it is clear, I was able to blow air freely through it from the end of the hose (routed out the end of the rear fender), however, in one place, I had wrapped it too tightly to the backbone, restricting it by maybe 40%.

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Quote
oil "feed" will be diverted to the sump

That does not explain why the return pump did not pump the crankcase to the tank.
Take a good look, as mentioned earlier, at the return lines and the filter.
Does the filter return all the oil to the valve gear maybe, and nothing to the tank?


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Originally Posted by Ger
Take a good look, as mentioned earlier, at the return lines and the filter. Does the filter return all the oil to the valve gear maybe, and nothing to the tank?


Thanks, Ger, I set up the oil filter so that it interrupts the main return line only, while the rocker feed follows the original path, direct from the oil union to the top end.

I had run the bike quite a bit in the garage with reliable return to the tank, and that first six-mile ride gave no problems, local roads, I hardly got out of second gear. Then "something" happened on the second ride after another ten miles more or less, with more sustained running through all four gears, at higher revs, usually around 3000 rpm, once I saw 4000 rpm briefly.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/01/14 1:35 pm.

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Quote
... the main return line only ... rocker feed follows the original path ...

Can the filter block the return? What happens if you by pass it temporarily? Now... After the 2nd ride...
You must see oil return into the tank then.

Wasn't there a Britbike member who wrote a few months ago about the suction pipe
of the return pump which was loose or it dropped off or something like that...


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Originally Posted by kurt fischer

I checked the oil tank breather as Alex advised, it is clear, I was able to blow air freely through it from the end of the hose (routed out the end of the rear fender), however, in one place, I had wrapped it too tightly to the backbone, restricting it by maybe 40%.


It would have to be completely blocked to cause wetsumping. My Rickman uses about a .030" diameter hole in the cap and this is adequate.


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Thanks to all for reading and following and thinking along with me, I appreciate your interest and advice.

Originally Posted by Alex
Originally Posted by kurt fischer

I checked the oil tank breather as Alex advised, it is clear, I was able to blow air freely through it from the end of the hose (routed out the end of the rear fender), however, in one place, I had wrapped it too tightly to the backbone, restricting it by maybe 40%.


It would have to be completely blocked to cause wetsumping. My Rickman uses about a .030" diameter hole in the cap and this is adequate.


OK, not the oil tank breather, then, cross that one off.

Originally Posted by Ger

Can the filter block the return? What happens if you by pass it temporarily? Now... After the 2nd ride...
You must see oil return into the tank then.

Wasn't there a Britbike member who wrote a few months ago about the suction pipe
of the return pump which was loose or it dropped off or something like that...


To be thorough, one thing I probably should have done on getting back home, would have been to re-start with proper amount of oil in the tank, engine sump drained, and check for oil return, with and without the in-line filter. I didn't do that before pulling off the sump plates, oil lines, oil union, right outer cover, exhaust.

All lines were quite tight, new hoses.

Now I'm thinking, keep going to the oil pump, almost there.

Always the decision awaits, put it back together and re-start and run, or embark on complete motor teardown.

[emoticon for pondering]


Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/01/14 4:15 pm.

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Just an additional thought..

Tempting to focus just on the return line to the tank, and that's probably where to look. But the scavenge pump (assuming it works and that, as Ger says, the feed tube is still there) pumps two lines in parallel. So I reckon what's important is the relative resistance of each route, and I think you need to look at both. If it becomes easier to pump to the head, either because the tank line is restricted or the head line somehow becomes 'freer', more oil will go that way and just circulate around the engine. A relatively small difference between the lines' backpressure can therefore significantly affect the flow back to the tank, even though pumped volume stays the same. All it takes is to reduce it to under pressure pump flow rate, and your engine will magically empty your tank.

So? The prime suspect is probably the filter line. But if you don't find much luck there, it would be worth checking the top end too. I remember, for instance, that there is a split pin affair up there that partially blocks the line so that the oil sprays nicely. If that fell out, you'd reduce the resistance to flow to the head a fair bit, which would, in turn, affect what flows to the tank.

And I'd be very tempted, as a first step, to go with Ger's suggestion of bypassing the filter to check it works OK without it. If nothing else, you'll eliminate pump and pump suction tube trouble.

Good luck!
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Oh, sorry - just seen you've pulled it to bits. Disregard the last two lines...

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Rick, that's a good thought, and things to check, thank you.

When I was mounting the filter, I asked here whether others had placed the filter only in the tank return line, or if they split the two feeds after the filter (and blocked the top end feed at the oil union). Answers came back both ways, one poster said he had tried it both ways on the same machine.

Interesting thought though about resistance, as people are using different types of filters on their bikes.


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Do you have a sump plate with a magnetic drain plug?
I have had the same problem twice. Return side of pump not clearing sump and then an oil slick.
Both times the return looked normal when I left then five miles down the road oil everywhere.
My thinking is that the ball in the return pickup stuck. I had a sump plate with a center magnetic drain and no screen. I found one from SRM and they claim in the description the center magnetic drain can hold the ball down. SRM's is to the rear.
Also, no screen was probably not helping matters by letting more crud into the pipe.
Anyway, I got the SRM one and will report on how it works.
Besides the non return issue I also have the standard wet sumps when it sits problem. I probably need to pull the pump and replace the spring, as far as I know it is original. Any recommendations on where to buy a good quality spring? I have had some issues with pattern parts in the past.

Last edited by htown; 10/04/14 8:08 pm.

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Originally Posted by htown
Do you have a sump plate with a magnetic drain plug?
I have had the same problem twice. Return side of pump not clearing sump and then an oil slick.
Both times the return looked normal when I left then five miles down the road oil everywhere.
My thinking is that the ball in the return pickup stuck. I had a sump plate with a center magnetic drain and no screen. I found one from SRM and they claim in the description the center magnetic drain can hold the ball down. SRM's is to the rear.
Also, no screen was probably not helping matters by letting more crud into the pipe.
Anyway, I got the SRM one and will report on how it works.
Besides the non return issue I also have the standard wet sumps when it sits problem. I probably need to pull the pump and replace the spring, as far as I know it is original. Any recommendations on where to buy a good quality spring? I have had some issues with pattern parts in the past.
Don't want to keep jumping in. But I also have a Wassel sump plate with magnetic plug. But the plug is in the front. Running a screen though.

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Gary, no problem, jump in, more information the better, I'm learning.

htown, I have not checked the ball in the pick up pipe in the motor sump yet. I do run the stock sump plate with a drain added (not magnetic), and the screen is in place.

I've gotten this far with a bike I don't know the history of, so I will keep on at least to the pump. When I have the pump in hand, no doubt I'll be looking for some parts, at least the ball and spring (gasket, etc.).

My sump drain:

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/04/14 9:01 pm.

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Kurt, Same with me as far as the bikes lineage is concerned. No idea who worked on it before. T-bolt bottom end, Lightning head. Part of the fun I guess.

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Just out of curiosity . is the drain bolt directly under the oil pick up tube ?
It looks to be a bit long and may be blocking off the return pick up tube.


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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Just out of curiosity . is the drain bolt directly under the oil pick up tube ?
It looks to be a bit long and may be blocking off the return pick up tube.


Thanks for your concern. Here's a pic of the inside of the sump plate with the bolt installed. I had Classic Fabrications TIG weld a flange nut on the outside of the plate, then used a flange bolt, drilled for lock wire, as the drain bolt. The bolt is off-center and installed opposite the pick-up pipe. I have since replaced the brass washer with a fiber one. Also, I checked the ball in the end of the scavenge pipe, and blasted it clean with WD-40.

[Linked Image]

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Rainy day, so I'm in the garage this morning, I removed the inner right cover to expose the oil pump. I gather I need to remove the crank nut and worm to remove the pump.

By the look of things, the cover has never been off before, screw heads in good condition, AAU reluctant to come off. There's some red clay-like sludge in the gearbox oil residue at the low point, a magnet picked up a few hairs. Notice the burr raised by the lockwasher under the uppermost nut on the gearbox door, just sitting there since July 1971. Also, of the three oil pump mounting studs/nuts, the forward one, the plain-nutted one, had a plain washer under the nut, not a tab washer (76-0138) as shown in the parts diagram

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image][

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/17/14 7:28 am.

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If you can remove the oil pump studs it will make life a lot easier. The pump will just drop downward.


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Originally Posted by kurt fischer
Rainy day, so I'm in the garage this morning, I removed the inner right cover to expose the oil pump. I gather I need to remove the crank nut and worm to remove the pump.


Piece of cake. Remember the nut is left-hand thread as is the worm drive(it unscrews just like the nut).


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Thanks, Allan, Alex. I had read that about the LH thread on the end of the crank, but thought I'd post up and see who reminds me of it, or tells me of exceptions. Removing the nut and worm gear went easily enough. The tab washer wasn't really folded over, just sort of mashed flat, but has done its job for 43 years. I decided not to pull out the studs, didn't want to risk stretching the threads by double-nutting.

The three nuts holding the pump on were tight, the gasket intact, but not 100% aligned with the holes. The ball seat doesn't look too great magnified, looks like some corrosion, maybe some scoring, maybe some original machining marks. Will pull the pump apart next, then collect some new parts.

How long is a new spring for the check valve? The one that came out is just under 7/8".

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Originally Posted by kurt fischer
Thanks, Gavin, not sure what it was, maybe 1/8" across, soft, like cotton lint, resting in the cavity behind the OPRV. Guess I'll clean the valve and clean out all passages in the casting.

I checked the oil tank breather as Alex advised, it is clear, I was able to blow air freely through it from the end of the hose (routed out the end of the rear fender), however, in one place, I had wrapped it too tightly to the backbone, restricting it by maybe 40%.
Kurt, Had a chance to look at mine today. I removed OPRV and found the same cotton lint you described in mine. Wonder if the same person assembled both engines ? Going to do the same cleaning as you did.

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Those nasty little pieces of shop rag can be real destructive in the wrong place, I use paper towels for the last clean before assembly.
It's nice to see you doing right by this old bike.

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SRM used to supply NOS pump gears and other small parts, worth bearing in mind.

Can we see pics of the pump end plate inner face where the gears have been rubbing?

Nick L posted

"you should feed the rocker gear after the filter, just make up a tee piece and blank off the oil tree end."

Very good advice, this stops a partially restrictive filter diverting all the return oil in a loop back through the rocker feed.


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Thanks, Gents, for all the comments and advice, all of which I have noted and greatly appreciate, also in the hope that others may benefit. Contributes to mental agility, too, much better than crossword puzzles.

Just the other day, a friend asked, "Do you have a winter project lined up?" "Funny you should ask, " I said ... .

Kinda figured that was rust in the gearbox. Even though I had drained and flushed it, when I got the inner cover off, there was more water sitting there. As to agony, I think I've been lucky so far in my experiment to just get it running without blowing it up.

Here's the oil pump endplate, as close as I could get it with my Kodak:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/19/14 8:44 am.

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Nice pics of the end plate, the wear looks pretty typical, looks like there are rust shadows from sitting with moist oil for a while, it should clean up easily, I use 220 wet and dry stuck to a flat surface , with a figure of eight lapping motion.


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Today I drained the gas tank, set it in the sun to dry, getting ready for the winter project.

I cleaned up the exposed right side of the motor, starting with the inner cover first, washing it down with paint thinner (mineral spirits), then pouring the used solvent through a paint filter into a waste jug. Check out the debris caught by the paint filter, stuff that did not come out of drain plugs or sump drains. Looks like tear-down time (ya think?). Had I gone into the right cover and oil pump before starting it up, I wouldn't have started it up. Now I'm eager to tear into it and see just what is shedding shards.

Originally Posted by NickL

I think you are prolonging the agony if you don't completely strip the thing and go through it all.


[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/20/14 5:30 pm.

Kurt

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Kurt,
when you do get inside the engine, DO look at the wrist pin circlips, won't you?

With all that swarf, I'll also suggest you take the oil tank plate off the bottom of the frame{?}, or the oil tank off the bike, and make certain sure there is no swarf left in there to maybe get picked up sometime later???

YIKES!!!

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What's interesting to me, the sumps and screens have been pretty clean in the three oil changes, and removing the OPRV, and the oil pressure sender, and the oil lines, draining and flushing the gearbox, and so on. This debris was lodged in the lower recesses between the main cases and the inside of the right hand cover, and it took some brushing and flushing to dislodge [the debris]from the sludge.



Kurt

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That circlip looks about the right size to be the one which holds the drive spindle in your oil pump.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"

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That's a tappet circlip. I wouldn't worry about it.


A smattering:
'53 Gold Flash
'67 Royal Star
'71 Rickman Metisse
'40 Silver Star
'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
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Entertaining, isn't it? Maybe the clip was left behind during initial assembly in July 1971 ... .

Originally Posted by NickL
Probably been there since the last rebuild.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 10/21/14 7:02 am.

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I refuse to use those circlips for that reason. I usually pack some clean rag around the tappets to hold them in place when removing or fitting the cylinder.


Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...

Now lets all have a beer!

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Thanks to all, including the usual BSA suspects, for following this thread the past 3+ years, thanks for all the encouragement and for sharing your perspectives and BSA knowledge. I think it's now time to wind down this thread since I see Phase 1 of the project as complete.

When I started, I decided to get the bike running, fix things along the way, get it on the road and ride it, and see how I liked it. I've done that, and I like it, the bike and all 20 miles that I rode it this fall. The work turned out better than I had planned, and the bike nicer to ride than I had expected, so now it's time for Phase 2, starting with motor overhaul.

I will start a new thread soon for Phase 2.


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Look forward to looking over your shoulder as Phase 2 begins. :bigt

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Looks as if we'll be doing Phase 2 at the same time. At the very least I must rebuild my top end and clean the sludge trap. Going past that will depend on the projected cost of machine work.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"

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