as the BSA Spitfire -Y is doing well, very well with its modified crank (1982) and EI (2012) topspeed and revs are steadily increasing.
the engine and framenumbers still match, I believe it is the last Spit with matching numbers, so I started out to have an extra engine prepared. when a rod drops in a othernumber engine it is a pity but not the end of the world. probably when a cheap frame turns up I will build a extra bike. but engine first.
engine specs: needle bearing timingside standard axial setup with shims SRM oil pump and filter in the oil feed line newby drivebelt and clutch 9:1 pistons, std bore reuse the head, single carb EI
If I'm seeing things correctly, some peening has been done on the outside of the case.
So, I'd heat the case some, and as has been said, drive the bearing into the trans cavity area, and drive a new one back in place from inside the trans cavity as well. Brett
To remove the high gear bearing, the case should be heated to 200 degrees. This takes longer than you might think, as the aluminum dissipates the heat so well. I went round and round with a propane torch, continually testing with a 200-degree temp stick. Finally, after at least 15 minutes, the temp stick melted, and you could just about push the bearing out with your fingers. Same thing on the way in, and cool the new bearing in the freezer. Fashion a drift that's the diameter of the outer race to tap it in.
Mark Z
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa. 2007 Triumph Bonneville Black
lemans, If you are talking about the liitle torrington needle bearing, about an inch in diameter that the layshaft runs in, here's the deal:
First you get a 5/16ths (I think, maybe 3/8ths) carriage bolt about 2 inches long. For those not familiar with the term “carriage bolt”, it’s a bolt with a round head. Underneath the round head is a square shoulder. It is used for fastening wood. As you tighten up the nut the, force pulls the bolt head down into the wood so that the smooth round domed top is all that is sticking out. The square shoulder prevents the bolt from turning.
Anyway, grind the head of the bolt oval till you can stick it down in the hole where the needle bearing is seated. Keep grinding a little off at a time until you can stick it into the needle bearing at about 45 degrees. When you get it just right, you will be able to rotate it vertical in the cavity and the edge of the bolt head will rock behind the needle bearing. Now you just take a socket and slip it over the bolt. Put a washer on it and a nut and turn the nut down and presto…it pulls the needle bearing out of the case. It works so good it will scare you and you have made another special BSA tool for about 20 cents and a little effort.
static and dynamic load data for a Hoffman RM11L bearing
RM11L sounds like a FAG code for a single row roller bearing in inch sizes. Possibly SKF uses the same coding, but will have the same PV (load and speed) characteristics as a similar sized bearing from another first class manufacturer. I cannot reach my SKF-book today. Maybe somebody else is faster.
static and dynamic load data for a Hoffman RM11L bearing
RM11L sounds like a FAG code for a single row roller bearing in inch sizes. Possibly SKF uses the same coding, but will have the same PV (load and speed) characteristics as a similar sized bearing from another first class manufacturer. I cannot reach my SKF-book today. Maybe somebody else is faster.
it is indeed the single row drive side main roller bearing, in inches.
tried to look up a similar bearing in my SKF extract but it contained only different sized metric bearings. when googling the Hoffman it resulted in the "ukrainian lady's dating site".
the reason for wanting to know the dynamic load data of this bearing is to pair/match the timing-side needle roller to this bearing. if the dynamic load data of the needleroller is approx 30~50% of the roller main it should be strong enough.
when I did the conversion in 1984 I forgot to write down the skf-type number.
Anne, The SKF type is NCF xyz, a cageless cylinder bearing with one collar in the outer ring. Descriptions and calculations for the metric sizes are found on page 560 etc of this catalogue. Just choose the metric size which comes closest to the inch sizes of the RM11L. I think that will be d = 30 mm D = 72 mm with dynamic laod 84 kN static load 86.5 kN
In shipbuilding there is a caliper to check the tapered end of the propeller shaft which is supposed to match the tapered bore in the propeller hub. I needed a picture of it for some documentation. The caliper is officially called a pot-caliper. Try to find that on the WWW. A walk to the machine shop, ask the chief storekeeper for the caliper, wait for a sr. assistent storekeeper to fetch the caliper, wait for the jr. assistent storekeeper to clean the caliper, take a picture myself, thank the chief storekeeper, the sr. assistent storekeeper and the jr. assistent storekeeper, and walk back to the office turned out to be faster.
For the non natives in Dutch: A pot in our lingo is not just for cooking but also a nasty word for lesbian.
Been looking through your pictures, some impressive work Anne!!! The ignition setup sounded spot on when on the Honda CB, sounds like it starts to advance earlier?
no, not really. checked the advance thoroughly with an oscilloscoop with memory-function. rpm and advance can be measured throughout the rev-range. spot on.
right hand engine casing back from the machine shop. machined a recess into the timing-side main to accept a SKF NKI 35/20 TN needle roller.
Do you know how they based machining of the recess ? Why did you picked up this particular bearing ? I know - the size of it is very close to the bush, but this drawn cage as a base looks not too solid for my untrained eye .
nice, I should have said I was comparing to other EI's like boyer / pazon where it doesn't reach full advance as soon the points ignition does.
the advance-curve (in reality a timed delay period) is just a liniear (ax+b)function. for the BSA it is 5drg adv @ 1000 rpm and 32 drg adv @ 3200; in between it's a "straight line". because of the microprocessor changing this curve is dead easy, new curve, new hex-file; flash the file and run. adjustable to everybody's need, wishes and best knowledge.
to optimize the BSA I'm currently working on a pressure pick-up sensor in the spark-plug, this to time the ignition in such a way that max pressure will occur just (0,001 drg) after TDC. but all this might take a while
Do you know how they based machining of the recess ? Why did you picked up this particular bearing ? I know - the size of it is very close to the bush, but this drawn cage as a base looks not too solid for my untrained eye .
I used the outside face as reference surface. where the oilpump is mounted.
I had a topic some time ago with this reference surface question. the answer then was that the cylinder-base-surface was the reference surface. both cases bolted together, then the cylinder barrel mouth is machined, then all other surfaces and axes are machined. but that is rather unusable info when remachining a bearing. so I just used the outside surface.
NKI 35/20 TN has a dynamic load capacity of 30kN which is 3/8 of the roller bearing capacity; almost 37 %. I think that's adequate.
the cases are 23 mm across and the needle roller is 20 mm. so we left a 3 mm ridge to prevent the outer bearing cage to travel sideways away from the crank.
almost all required parts are in, even the needle bearing.
things to do are: machining the outer timing side cover machining/grinding of the crank and some small work, camshaft bearings etc
the axial bearing has to be remade because the needle roller sits flush with the crankcase so there is no support for the axial bearing and a thicker bearing will have to be made. on the drive side the usual shims will be used.
today I sent the crank away. It will be machined to accept the needle bearing. progress is being made.
as I'm rebuilding from a set of stripped crankcases, all the nuts and bolts are missing.
does some one have a list of all bolts & nuts required to build an engine, threads, pitch, size and req amount. should save me a lot of time as some of them are not in the haynes manual,
I'm now preparing the outer timing side cover. has to be drilled and a suitable oil gallery/transfer welded to it.
for the correct alignment to the right hand side crankcase I'm searching for two dowels or retaining pins which align both segments. indicated with red arrows in the picture
Can't find them. does someone have a part number or their diameter?. so I can have them made
Anne, as your running the needle roller timing side conversion... where will you use the oil feed take off? SRM/Devimead used the front dowel as the feed.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
FYI The early Devimead motors were just a copper tube with a couple of banjo bolts, one end into the pressure switch port and the other into the alloy bush welded onto the timing cover to carry the quill seal. A number of others used a similar manner then doing their own conversions to cut down in the machining work.
a hose. a oil line (hose) will run from the prv, modified of course, to the oil filter (norton style) and the to an ugly fat lump of alu welded to the outer timingsidecover to carry the oil-crankshaft seal. see my other pictures for details.
this time I'll try the down size the ugly lump so all will fit behind the timing side cover.
did some work today on the new engine in a well equipped workshop. -bolted the outer timing side cover to the mill-bed -used the innertiming side cover the line up spindle and main bearing centerline -drill 28 mm made the required hole -fitted inner timing side with needle roller bearing -finished seal holder ready to be welded on the outer timing side cover
crankshaft still to be modified, it is a used item and today appeared to be bent, have to check that one again or use my own crankshaft (from my still running engine, modified in '82)
axial setup will remain more or less the same, with different parts and material selection. oilpump still to choose.
Or machine the seal carrier to size after welding to allow any distortion. On one engine, I used aero-quip hose and fittings to pipe in the oil supply, this gave a bit of flexibility and looked quite tidy.
I've just removed one by using a 14 mm tap, just putting a couple of turns on the sludge trap and working it out using the tap as a puller. Very basic, but it worked. I went to do the same on the second crank I have and the tap isn't a large enough diameter! I'm going to make a dowel with a spring loaded peg to pick up the oil delivery hole. Bit like the system used on the quick adjustable alloy crutches and walking sticks you get.
Hope that helps. Cheers John
Last edited by John Goodwin; 06/05/159:47 pm.
Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175 Past: 4 x 1976 T160V, 1 74/5 T150V, 83 model GSX 750 ESD, Z650, Katana 1100(Bathurst Model), 79 T140V, 70's TR6, 2 x 1971 BSA 250 Gold Stars, 50's 350 Goldie, A65 Spitfire semi basket case, 1965/6? A65 LC, Tiger 21 350 & a D14/4 Bantam, 175 Bridgestone Twin with Zimmerman discs!
promised to post pictures of the timing side main bearing conversion of the old engine.
needle roller is SKF "NKI 35/20 TN" axial bearing is a modified std BSA, I made a bronze ring which is partly inserted in the main bearing bore. the axial setup has worked very well.
converted sometime in 1982~1983, all work done in the royal navy workshop. hasn't been dismantled since, used regularly for the last 8 years, total mileage after conversion, my best guess is 12~17.000 km
indeed well worth the wait, more than well worth the wait. of course it took some time but when the piece of work in on your dinner table and you start imagining the amount of work to make this out of a solid lump with all sizes to spec, all centerlines lined up, it didn't take that long.
axial bearing setup is std BSA, in one of the previous post you could see my solution used 25 years ago. this worked well and will be used again in slightly modified form. the axial bearing setup BSA used for the A65 is a normal and proper method and I've never had any issues.
of course the axial bearing can be changed but that doesn't mean it will be improved.
progress, holidays over, all the best 2016 wishes to all of you, drive safely.
finished the axial setup today had the previous engine a genuine bronze axial bearing, this one will have to do with plain alu, with some alterations.
old engine; needle roller not supported on the outside, axial bearing press-fitted into the old main bearing hole. see previous posts new engine; needle roller supported on the outside by a 4mm ridge, alu axial bearing plate loosely fitted.
as the old timing side bush + bronze insert is 4mm thick, I made the alu bearing out of a 4mm strip. It lies slightly raised above the timing side main casing material.
end float, negligable but all turns freely. casings will expand more, so no problem. actually my ducati has an negative end-float when cold.
I've got to say I really liked your original setup with the modified bush.
I had ordered anRNA4907 bearing which arrived today, the OD is bigger than yours but the 20mm width is the same. For the oil groove to align with original I'm thinking of making a 4mm ring to sit on the inner side of the crank, then maybe a thrust washer inboard of that.
How will you hold your aluminium plate in place?
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
Alan, with a needle roller bearing you do not want the oil spilling out of the oil groove into the bearing, that will be robbing oil pressure from the big ends. Ideally the oilway leading to the groove should be plugged, the needle roller bearing will get plenty lubrication by splash
I don't want to Hijack Anne's thread here. However the crank is end fed so no pressure being lost, and there is a bleed to feed this bearing drilled in the crank case. But thanks for your interest.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
well, not at all. as you can see in picture 3 in post #633717, the BSA-shop machined a recess into the timingside casing. probably to standard dimensions for the crank and to provide a reasonable flat surface to press the main bearing bush to. the depth of this recess is small, prob less than 1~1,5mm (1/16 inch) but enough to prevent the alu-plate from sliding forward and backward. the ends of the recess are round and the alu-plate is filled to fit preceisly. so the axial bearing fits snugly, free to move a little bit but not much.
as the new set of cases came without nuts and bolts and the set from the old engine is rather knackered, new ones had to be sourced.
searching the internet, for instance: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X5%2F16+x+26+x+2.TRS0&_nkw=5%2F16+x+26+x+2&_sacat=0
revealed some ridiculous pricing; 5/16 x 26TPI x 2,5"@ 1,20GBP each. P&P to be added.
local machineshop has the correct dies for 4 GBP and M8 (yes metric) has the correct shaft diameter.
improvement possible, I'll make a new set out of M8 allen-bolts
started today with axial end float/play straightforward task: mount crankshaft in cases, measure end-float. insert spacer acc to calculation. measure end-float. finished.
still there is some voodoo involved. first measurement 0,67mm. inserted 0,65mm spacers. second measurement 0,07mm end float. hmm somewhere found another 0,05mm play. added an extra 0,05mm spacer. third measurement 0,07mm float. hmmmm, cases are made of putty. added more spacers and am satisfied at 0,04mm with the thought of putting the cases together with ducati superbond liquid gasket.
Hi Anne, nice progress, in the pic below you can see the Devimead solution for lubrication of the Timing side bearing, the original pressure feed is blanked and a small cavity is created on the top side of the bearing boss allowing oil to drip into the bearing.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
hi Gavin, that is indeed a clever solution, being a needle roller the dripfeed is more than enough. As you can see in my earlier posts I used a scrub srew with a 1mm orifice. Same setup as with the old engine which lasted some 32 years/ 12000 miles. Regards A
been a while but this christmass the new engine is work in progress. solved the axiaal end float voodoo, made a new bearing out of some phosphor bronze. in the end it is just a 5,25 mm thick slab of bronze, milled to the correct dimensions. end float is now 0,04 mm
next jobs on the list are: 1. camshaft 2. the SRM-Oilpump 3. gearbox, pity the five-speed from Scotland isn't available yet so have to resort to the four-speed.
Nice to see your moving forward again. With regards to the 5 speed clusters, I've been surprised by the lack of interest, other than myself the other two which I know are in use, Mark Parker and Gavin Eisler are happy with the performance, of the 11 sets sold others don't really give you much feed back.
Hopefully your post can generate a little more interest, at the moment there are your self and four other who have shown an interest. I need to order a batch of ten, so if anyone is interested PM here or get in touch.
well the five-speeder can be exchanged with the engine in the frame, so there's no real hurry yet still..... I want to shift one more time when they don't expect it.
the bike used to be run two-up and then the four-speed hasn't the best spaced ratio's. future use is again two-up regards A
progress with the new engine is slow, very slow. with the upcoming winter season the objective is to have all components ready.
and now the camshaft. I purchased a 90-drg camshaft a couple of years ago. and it is not straight. although new the complaining period is long past and I'm having a new one made at the local camshaft-shop
It depends which cam you have. The standard 'spitfire' form is different.
I think this also alters depending on if its an original cam (to which I think your referring) or a remanufactured item, which I have seen lift heights and duration different to that of the factory item (and different to other makers versions of the same cam)
The SRM race cam as far as 360 degree motors are concerned is a good cam.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
It seems I can no longer view the images on the forum threads unless I fork over money to photobucket to upgrade my account. Or am I doing something wrong?
No, Dave you have to pay money to upload your own photos from photobucket, you still won't be able to see others photos unless the poster of those photos pays the ransom too
When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
trying to get this thread running again. bought a 5-speeder lately in Portugal from James, nice chap who had one lying around. convinced my wife that a holiday to Pombal (PT) was long overdue, and who's having coffee at the Cafe Nicolai, James with a gearbox. how lucky can you get. she took it rather well.
don't know about photowhatever and running my own server now, trying to show some pictures, have patience
Mr Nourish sold the business a few years ago, the new owner has disappointed quite a few customers, not surprised they are incommunicado. Ive had no personal dealings, but from what Ive seen, you had better look elsewhere .
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
indeed bad news, done some reading, especially the CRMF-Forum and reports are bad. the reason I wanted to contact Chris is that the 90-drg crankshaft he made doesn't fit. main dimensions are "slightly" off and although it fits the crankcase, it doesn't fit the barrel.
have to revert to a std 360-drg setup. pictures to follow later.
Thats a tough break, can it be made to work ?, there are other decent machine shops out there. I read somewhere on a facebook page that you are not the only one to get badly made stuff from him. In the same thread someone suggested contacting Mr Nourish, he uses a decent engineering shop, although no longer trading/ doing this work he knows another shop thats capable.
I tried to search for the facebook info and got lost, it was either on the "British Bike mechanics " or "BSA Singles and Twins"
Theres a bloke across the pond that builds staggered cranks , you give him the crank, it gets sawn in half , welded rebalanced, sheds a lot of flywheel weight. Interesting site. http://www.offsetcrank.com/bsa_index.html I have no idea if this is still current.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
I trust that you wore some heat-proof gloves when you pushed the bearing out with your fingers at 200 degrees :-)
if referring to the torrington inside the gearbox, a std heatgun and a screwdriver did the trick, no injuries sustained if referring to the crankshaft timing side bush, applied brute force and again no injuries
but to assemble the needlerollerbearing inner race onto the crankshaft is a tricky operation. apply heat with the heatgun, then pick up the very hot inner race and position it on the exact position on the crankshaft timing side stub. and keep holding it in position and wait for the inner race to shrink
cool your fingers and observe position of inner race, repeat untill satisfied. and yes I wore some gloves
When I took my devimead timing side bearing apart the inner race had a convenient 45 degree flat on the crank side rim, after heating it popped off easily with a small chisel tapped into the bevel. When I fitted the new race I reground the bevel, glad I did , it needed to come off for a small shim to prevent the crank cheeks binding on the bearing outer, this had to be stoned a little for a few more thou relief. Although the same OD and ID the new bearing was a few thou longer than the original and a couple of subtle changes were needed to get the correct float on the ball part of the combi bearing.
71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750 56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65 Cagiva Raptor 650 MZ TS 250 The poster formerly known as Pod
as I was rather pissed of by photobucket's ransom actions already one year ago, I decided to move forward with a raspberry-pi webserver. took some time but this is the result. tadaaa. a server with my own pictures.
as the chris-crank is of no use yet (not without extensive modifications) I reverted to the tested 360-degree setup (had to, damn) J.Hill alloy barrel 5-speed gearbox newby belt
I trust that you wore some heat-proof gloves when you pushed the bearing out with your fingers at 200 degrees :-)
Ha, I said that I COULD have pushed it out with my fingers! I actually used a shouldered drift that I had a machine shop make for me. I just about got the drift in place and was getting ready to tap it with a hammer when the bearing essentially fell out. The drift was a bit more useful when it came to installing the new bearing.
Mark Z
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa. 2007 Triumph Bonneville Black
as I was rather pissed of by photobucket's ransom actions already one year ago, I decided to move forward with a raspberry-pi webserver. took some time but this is the result. tadaaa. a server with my own pictures.
as the chris-crank is of no use yet (not without extensive modifications) I reverted to the tested 360-degree setup (had to, damn) J.Hill alloy barrel 5-speed gearbox newby belt
progress is being made regards A
Probably the best solution for now, I have been discussing it with Mark at PES (CCM Britain, and the maker of Johns 5 speed box) He may be tempted to make an offset crank but will need a few bits to make one against I should imagine.
SRM are now selling an offset crank... However it is (and is advertised as) one of the Norish cranks...
On the Newby belt kit, give Bob a ring and he may machine you a clutch centre to suit the splined mainshaft.
Life is stressful enough without getting upset over the little things...
I trust that you wore some heat-proof gloves when you pushed the bearing out with your fingers at 200 degrees :-)
if referring to the torrington inside the gearbox, a std heatgun and a screwdriver did the trick, no injuries sustained if referring to the crankshaft timing side bush, applied brute force and again no injuries
but to assemble the needlerollerbearing inner race onto the crankshaft is a tricky operation. apply heat with the heatgun, then pick up the very hot inner race and position it on the exact position on the crankshaft timing side stub. and keep holding it in position and wait for the inner race to shrink
cool your fingers and observe position of inner race, repeat untill satisfied. and yes I wore some gloves
regards A
Sorry for the confusion lemans, Whisper was responding to my post about changing out the high gear bearing on a T140.
Mark Z
'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa. 2007 Triumph Bonneville Black
the ordered set of Allen bolts had a totally different thread (TPI was different as advertised) I decided to make my own. these are finished now with M6 at the other end (no it is not to be a std bike)
made a suitable tool for the front sprocket nut. in the past a used a chisel as you can see. my welding ability is not that good but it works
did some work on the timing side cover off the engine today drawing/designing/fitting of the ugly lump, the axial oil feed to the crankshaft
now it has to be welded and drilled to accept the oil-feed it is not as ugly/protruding as the previous setup but the cover won't fit, pity but then again the modification is obvious. progress!! maybe it will be finished this spring
started working on this engine in 2013, but then other projects, work and family shifted priorities also some set-backs, the crank is still 360 and I'll report on the 270 in a separate topic but today...-> tadaa
specs are: 360 drg crank, JHILL-Barrels, 5-speed Quaife, Newby Belt, Needle roller conversion with std-axial float and SWF-Ignition
still some minor details to clean-up but next serious run is this weekend. first start with roller-assistance, now I'm able to kick-start teh bike with ease
yesterday, shake down cruise, after the sixt roundabout lost the clutch, how lucky can you be. did all in all about 190 miles, things to sort: carburation, riding position otherwise fun to ride how lucky
last Friday longtime friends came to see the BSA, my eldest son was also at home and decided to join in, luckily all his stuff is at our house. just starting the bike and run it in the backyard wouldn't do. so we did 40 miles to the nearest motorcycle-shop for a cup of coffee. only then I noticed my son for not wearing his gloves, and bought a pair.
things to do: rear suspension some small oil-leaks
as for me the bike is finished, the engine is running great, bike handles very well and brakes are good. cosmetically isn't that important.
Sounds great, however position on your bike is no longer possible for me to use.
indeed, for daily use I've a V85TT. upright riding position and a very comfortable bike. However if we, me and my son, use the V85TT he has to lean left or right to see the road ahead. So his riding-position is on the V85TT much worse and indeed he's constantly changing his seat.
on the BSA he can sit straight up and look over me. And he sits like a brick, doesn't move around and anticipates all corners. isn't scared. Fun to ride. so for the longer trips I'll chose the BSA or the MG LMII
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