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I am putting together an engine to put into a Norton featherbed frame, its a 1969 dated t150, what can i do without increasing the capacity to add to the performance and reliability ? Electronic ignition is taken as a given but anything else ? Breathing ? Porting ?

Thanks.

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Hi,

Originally Posted by bon
add to the performance and reliability

. After reading particularly John Healy's posts over the years, I'd start with basics like making sure all the shafts are parallel, the crankcase top is parallel with the horizontal plane of the crankshaft, the bores are perpendicular to the top and bottom surfaces of the block, etc., etc.

. Enlarge the main oilways to/from the pump to the late T160 size (there's a thread on the TOL forum about enlarging the oilways to the centre mains).

. Depending how early your engine is, it may have pumped feed to the cams; usual mod. is to crimp/blank these off, splash feed is more than adequate.

. I'd put in an aftermarket high-flow oil pump but, if you can't afford one, the standard pump often benefits from a going-over to make sure everthing's square/parallel.

. Even the standard clutch assembly can be relieved of several pounds, or you can spend on lightweight clutch components from the likes of Dave Madigan ('DMadigan' on here and TOL) and Triples Rule. Several people, including Dave, can help with ideas on crank lightening.

. Definitely fit new rods - ally rods have a fatigue life and any original triple rod is old; finding out one reached the end of that life while fitted to an engine is never good for the wallet or heart rate. sick Usual recommendation is Carillo or Arrow steel rods, but MAP do new alloy rods.

. Consider a 5-speed 'box. However, because it's difficult persuading twin owners that their old boneshakers are ok with 4-speeds, 5-speed 'boxes ain't ever cheap. frown Nevertheless, even if re-fitting a 4-speed 'box, enlarge the main bearing to the size fitted to later 4-speed (and then 5-speed) triples; it's much easier to do the necessary (small amount of) machining to an empty crankcase than try and do it later with a file when you do find a 5-speed 'box.

Originally Posted by bon
Breathing ? Porting ?

Porting can be a bit of a 'mare on the triple engine because the head bolts are too close together to enlarge particularly the inlet ports circular; however, there are other ways and means. Also, it depends which company cast the head! crazy There's a lot of good information in "Triumph Tuning" by Stan Shenton plus if you ask the question on the TOL forum.

However, personally, I wouldn't go mad on tuning unless I was planning on racing. In good standard form, these engines were capable of propelling a 450lb-dry (so much more withe fuel, oil and rider) bike to over 125mph; you're putting it in a lighter bicycle. smile

Hth.

Regards,

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Lightening rotating parts will lessen wear and help acceleration. The crank:
[Linked Image]
The clutch:
[Linked Image]
... are two of the major parts. The chainwheel is another. You can put a ball bearing in the inner primary to hold the chainwheel from floating:
[Linked Image]
Fix the ports, the intakes can be cleaned up to increase the flow:
[Linked Image]
Your head probably is an HDA which are much better than AM:
[Linked Image]
but still can be improved.
Instead of buying a new pump, you can change the drive to increase the speed using Virago parts:
[Linked Image]
Attention to details makes a big difference.

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Thanks stuart and dmadigan, do you happen to have a drawing or sketch of how much metal is to be removed from the crank ? Does it need to be rebalanced when this work is done or does having equal amounts of steel removed from each crank weight retain the balance ? Also if i were to have the crank nitrided or tuftrided do they warp ? Is it worth bothering with ?

What about compression ratios ? Whats best ? And cam's too , are the factory cams ok for fast use ? Does using a 4 speed box impair the acceleration and speed ?

I have a copy of stan shentons triumph tuning , but to be honest there isn't much on the triples in it.

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Hi,

Originally Posted by bon
if i were to have the crank nitrided or tuftrided do they warp ?

If you're in GB, P&M offer an exchange crank service where the new one will be lightened, 4th oilway drilled and (I think) tuftrided. If you aren't in GB, I'd be inclined to go with the advice of your chosen expert.

Originally Posted by bon
What about compression ratios ? Whats best ?

Standard is around 9:1 to 9.5:1. With what any of us have available for normal fuel, imho going higher is more pain than gain - far less pain and more gain from a big-bore kit.

Originally Posted by bon
cam's too , are the factory cams ok for fast use ?

There are slightly better cams for road use but, again, no substantial gain. You have to bear in mind that none of this stuff is:-

a. cheap;

b. any use 'til you've done the basics I outlined in my first post - all those 125+mph speeds you see in contemporary press tests were with engines that had simply been hand-built by experts. The engines weren't radically modified because, if one blew up on test, or the magazine decided to take it to bits, discovering it was full of special bits would've been embarassing.

So, depending what you start with, the basics can reap big rewards, and you've got to do 'em anyway; thereafter, tuning gets you only incremental gains, unless you're willing to spend big on big-bore, stroked crank.

A few years ago, a friend of mine, already with a bored-'n'-stroked engine in a genuine factory Rob North frame, came away from P&M having handed over four grand for what he said would fit in a shoe box. He said, "I'm thinking I could buy a second-hand Fireblade for less and go faster out of the dealer's showroom".

Originally Posted by bon
Does using a 4 speed box impair the acceleration and speed ?

4-speed and 5-speed top are the same (1:1), 4-speed 1st is a little higher than 5-speed 1st. Just mho but, with both T160's and an early T150, I like the 5-speed more.

Originally Posted by bon
stan shentons triumph tuning ,
there isn't much on the triples in it.

There is about the porting, and solutions if you break through into the head bolts' tunnels. At the risk of telling you something you know already, Stan was the racing team manager for Boyer's of Bromley, one of the largest British Triumph dealers (and I think still a Stinkley dealer), the team regularly challenged (and beat) the factory bikes. I believe he's also the person we have to thank confused for the 'Boyer' part of Boyer-Bransden electronic ignitions. whistle

Hth.

Regards,

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I was thinking about a big bore kit , i know people like map in florida do them , is there any issues with them ? I heard dave degens of dresda (mr.triton) advises against them as the head gasket joint is too difficult to seal and they blow gaskets. Any truth in this ?
I think its clear the way to go is just lightening and matching the various components and keeping things fairly stock, i think this combined with the lighter weight of the rest of the machine should mean its plenty fast enough.
Thanks.

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Hi,

Originally Posted by bon
big bore kit , i know people like map in florida do them , is there any issues with them ? I heard dave degens of dresda (mr.triton) advises against them as the head gasket joint is too difficult to seal and they blow gaskets. Any truth in this ?

Mmmm ... this is a question you should ask on the TOL forum, simply because there's lots of first-hand experience. There are something like half-a-dozen different big-bore kits - P&M can do you a bored-'n'-stroked 973cc in the original silhouette that'll give around 100bhp for racing. smirk Big-bore kits for the triples have been around since God and Norman Hyde were boys.

Money no object, I'd fit the T160's with 850 kits and live with any minor head gasket issues. But that's more because T160's are lardy old lumps compared to a Triton and I'd go mainly for more mid-range, although I might gear for a 130 top speed for the bragging rights. laughing

Originally Posted by bon
the way to go is just lightening and matching the various components and keeping things fairly stock, i think this combined with the lighter weight of the rest of the machine should mean its plenty fast enough.

Bear in mind that you can start off this way then, if it ain't fast enough for you, go for a big-bore kit; it should then be a bolt-on without the need for major engine work.

Hth.

Regards,

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Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve

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Originally Posted by snibor
Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve


Wow , what sort of speeds were you getting around the island with that set up steve ?

Another thing i meant to ask about the trident engine is are hydraulic clutches available ? I hear the standard clutch is heavy , i have had problem with clutch cable life on heavy clutches before, a hydraulic set up sounds good.

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This is how I cut my crank. Yours will be different depending upon your rods and pistons.
[Linked Image]
There are a couple people besides me that make hydraulic clutches:
[Linked Image]
However, the hydraulics does not reduce the pull by any great amount. You still have to move the spring the same distance. It does self adjust, eliminating that problem.

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Thanks mr.madigan ,
What do tridents use as a flywheel ? Is it the combined weight of the crank and the heavy clutch ? Can reducing weight go too far ?

I don't mind the hydraulic clutch being heavy but i have had problems in the recent past of getting decent quality clutch cables , the nipples pull off leaving the bike stranded. Are the kits expensive ?

I am thinking a hydraulic clutch , electric starter fitted , that it would be very like a modern triumph except its a meriden (via small heath) made machine.

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Originally Posted by bon
Originally Posted by snibor
Hi Stuart ,

if you use one of the better kits out there then there are no issue on head gasket leakage... yes there was on the stock muffs bored to take a bonneville size 71mm liner and other issues in the sleeves getting out of shape and burning heaps of oil ... the decent kits I have used with good experiences are Triples Rule (these are fitted to the Manx BSA Rocket 3s ) or Nova or P&M ... on a road bike stock studs are fine .... on a race bike we install another 8 pull downs to assist the head gaskets with seriously high compression and very high revs .... I had no Head gasket issues at the Manx GP on bikes that ran 71.6mm pistons and at 8500-9000RPM for long periods on 12.5-1 pistons .. a good a test as is possible IMHO...

Steve


Wow , what sort of speeds were you getting around the island with that set up steve ?

Another thing i meant to ask about the trident engine is are hydraulic clutches available ? I hear the standard clutch is heavy , i have had problem with clutch cable life on heavy clutches before, a hydraulic set up sounds good.


Hi Bon

fastest speed was 148 MPH through Sulby Straight and a 105MPH average speed lap from a standing start .... but the top speed was limited because we needed more gearing .. the 18T offset gearbox sprocket (the only one available last year ) is to small for the Island and forces to small a rear sprocket to the point where we had to fit a motocross slipper on the top of the swing arm pivot to stop the chain chain sawing the swing arm ...
we have 20T gearbox for this year which will give more options on the rear ..

steve

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Hi Bon

typically 7Lbs off the crank is a good amount .. any more than that doesn't really help and can make the bike a tad difficult to ride ...

an alloy clutch or lightened clutch is a good thing and an alloy chain wheel on the cush drive as well ... I use all the above ...

As Dave says hydraulics do not really make the clutch any lighter but helps with adjustment ... a good venhill cable will help no end with the clutch action as will fitting a slightly thicker clutch plate (approx 7mm ) this gets the spring off the start of compression and slightly pre loaded and removes the first bit of compression which is the heavy bit of pulling the clutch lever ...a triple clutch if setup properly and a decent cable should be a two finger job anyways ..

steve

Last edited by snibor; 02/04/12 7:08 am.
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Hi Bon,

Originally Posted by snibor
a good venhill cable will help no end with the clutch action as will fitting a slightly thicker clutch plate (approx 7mm )
...a triple clutch if setup properly and a decent cable should be a two finger job anyways

Definitely.

While it's getting off the point of this particular thread, when you get into actually building the engine, Dave (and Steve?) should be able to advise about setting up the clutch and primary drive parts to check for flex; I recall Dave posting about this some time ago.

Hth.

Regards,

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Bon ..

I can vouch for Steve's light clutch action as I was struggling with my T150V clutch and just could not get what I felt was a good action.

Then I slide on to Steve's/ Snibor's Hyde and I was totally blown away by the clutch action ~ and when he explained it was simply a quality cable I was all but on my butt!

He was dead right~ after I fitted a new Venhill the whole thing was transformed ~ Magical !! :bigt beerchug

Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/04/12 10:20 am.

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Hi Steve,

Hopefully, this'll help Bon as well, ...

Originally Posted by snibor
an alloy clutch or lightened clutch is a good thing and an alloy chain wheel on the cush drive as well

On top of the weight off the crank, how much do you think you're losing from the clutch and that end of the primary drive?

And, if I were to do the work in stages, would I be right in thinking it's better to lighten the clutch and that end of the primary drive first, which'd give the primary chain an easier time (a major consideration on T160's grin )?

Regards,

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Hi Stuart ,

the weight off the crank, off the clutch and chain wheel will all help and make the bike much more rideable in that you can accelerate faster and back off faster by just closing the throttle ...
The rotational weight (inc G forces ) which is a lot more than the actual reduced physical weight by a factor of 1000s when those parts are being spun at 8000RPM in the case of the crank and approx half that RPM at the clutch and chain wheel , provides much better control backing off into corners to slow down because of the benefits of fast deceleration and without the over use of brakes.. and makes for much faster corner speed and with reduced compression of the front suspension which you dont want unless you have to .

hope that makes sense ..

have a look at these two clips which a good example on a triple of using the gearbox and minimal brakes ..

Trident and R3 at the Manx 1

Trident at the Manx

steve

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Hi Bon I have a T150 in a featherbed with all the modifications of the above pictures plus 1000cc strocker crank and big bore cylinders 51B megacycle cams and quaife MK2 gerbox it was a dream for me when i was student at the high school. but i want to tell you that you don't need all of them.I want to tell you also have you ride a very good restored t150 without mods to know what do you want from this bike?trident and rocket three are very quick without to do many mods!!if you go to do many modifications it's usually to have many troubles,I told you that like a friend,my t150 costs to me only the spares for the engine 15.000euros.only the big bore cylinders have 1500 sterling pounds and the omega forged pistons cost 450sterling pounds the modifications for the clutch and i mean to remove all the std parts with PANDM CLUTCH cost only 1500pounds the modifications to the crank like cross drill tuftrided lightened strocker etc1200pounds doyou want more informations for prices?If i rebuild now a trident the first item i bought the high capacity oil pump second change the torringhtons in the clutch, with real bearings GREAT IMPROVE but very difficult mod and you will not need to change your std parts in your clutch.fit MAP RODS they are the best and your engine will vibrate less than with carrillos and cost the half of the price of steel rods,go to megacycle cams but not 51B THE ENGINE AWAKE after 7000rpm!!!Go for omega forged pistons don't go to big bore you don't need and yes it's difficult to seal put cooper gaskets to head and rocker boxes and use on these gaskets only 574 loctite, if you want more horse power spend money to special work on your cylinder head fit AMAL carbs MK2 work very well on triples finally fit one set of the special pushrod tubes of Dave Madigan's store they will keep oil tight your engine.Good luck!!

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All I have done to date is a gas flowed the head.
And a genius tripler mate "Bob" in Brisbane who works alongside of Snibor/ Steve ~
( See the latest video of them on a brand spanking new Trident ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjunMkOyzsY )

Bob built me a superb set of Amals ~ see my post on site;
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272398#Post272398 .

Now I lightened the clutch. The latter has been a impressive notably improvement ~

So much I have ordered a lightened chain wheel from LP Williams ~
( I stuffed up here as I ASS-umed Steve was overseas on business and in fact he was not and he has all these bits I need and more in his shed)~

But small beginnings ~ I debated the revs issue with Steve as he thrives on high revs ~ I argued that I am happy around 5-6K.

But even now as I make inroads into this field of gleaning more performance I am sneaking that tacho around the range !!

'Mue- aa-hahaha !!

Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/05/12 12:16 am.

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Thanks snibor , kostas and stuartss , i am sucking all this triple knowledge and tips up , this is exactly what i am looking for, i don't want to over do the tuning but you all know you can't help adding a few "go faster" bits , if even only for bragging rights.
I will probabily go for a new set of rods just to be safe, and maybe a set of slightly sportier cams if funds allow. I hope to get to the isle of man for the tt , i won't make it this year but next year if i am lucky.

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The standard cylinder barrel is bored and faced square from the top.That should still be correct until someone bores it again.There can be out-of-parallel errors at the bottom face.
This could equally apply to after-market barrels.

Personally,I think these engines have too much cam duration for their own good as a street engine.It might be different with a long-stroke crank.

Copper rocker box gaskets can save you having to re-torque and adjust valves every 10 or 20 miles,after a re-build.

Check the runout and clearance on the cush-drive.You can skim the spider and bush the side-plates to fix it.

I found that reducing the intake port to about 28mm between the guide and the valve-seat,caused no loss of flow.Enlarging the port almost square between the valve guide and head bolt holes helped.You'll still never get it to flow as much as the round port entry,even at 12mm valve-lift.I can't understand why some heads are opened to 30mm entry.

Tuftriding the crank sounds good,but you'd want it done in a cradle to minimize distorion.

I think the Porsche valve adjusters,like Dave Madigan uses,are a good idea;as long as you square up the geometry from the pivot ball to shaft centre (square to valve-stem) at around mid-lift.You'll get faster inital lift and less valve wear.

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The exhaust system has a major influence on power and what sort of power spread you have. I've made up a few different types when I owned a T150V. I like the sound of the stock system with sportier mufflers, but a large bore 3 into 1 can really add some zoom at higher RPM. I also experimented with a large dia three pipe set up with some connecting tubes about half way along. It may not have had quite the top end of the 3 into 1 but was close and sounded very cool. I ended up with big valves and 32mm dellortos and 880cc big bore kit. It started with 855cc but rebored it over the years. I guess it would be fun trying a different cam but the stock one didn't seem to be holding it back. I think an 850-860 big bore kit is really worth fitting along with making the head breath, I never tried 'D' shaped ports in a triple but it would be interesting to do.


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I have made this tread a "sticky". Great Job Guyz!

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Thanks Mark P.

I neglected to add I fitted one of Paul (Bryant) Viking big bore one piece exhaust and T120 mufflers ~ I think I may be able to get more tweak out of the system as it is pretty full on straight through as I see it.

And for what it's worth I spent yonks polishing the rockers !

And I gave up on copper gaskets real early ~ despite all my efforts to surface the head and rocker box surfaces and every other flat surface I could ~ the copper gaskets failed me every time..

As stated I feel I can glean much more and I am stil waiting for Snibor/ Steve to turn up on the front step armed with his valve timing gear!

This was early days but promising (despite the pitfalls yet to catch me !)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iASW...0qNQCs-bbWA&index=6&feature=plcp

Last week ~
[Linked Image]





Last edited by Stuart SS; 02/05/12 6:37 am.

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I used copper rocker box gaskets for years, ones I cut out myself, but always glued down with 3bond supersealer, which I also used on the head gasket and pushrod seals, rocker box and head gaskets never leaked or seeped but pushrod seals could be annoying. I like the way my A65 has them in the block.


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I started with a spray on gasket sealer from permatex on cooper rocker box gaskets and it leaked like a sieve. Took it back apart, cleaned the mess up and put it back together with a lite smear of RTV and it's dry as bone now.


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I always anneal copper gaskets to soften them even if they are new as a matter of course, it seems to work , i don't think the manufacturers bother to do it. As for the notorious push rod tubes, i have found the aluminium ones made in the uk by tri-cor always seal well.

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Originally Posted by Pete R
The standard cylinder barrel is bored and faced square from the top.That should still be correct until someone bores it again.There can be out-of-parallel errors at the bottom face.
This could equally apply to after-market barrels.

Personally,I think these engines have too much cam duration for their own good as a street engine.It might be different with a long-stroke crank.




Hi Peter
the barrels being square to the perpendicular of the bore is absolutely important as you say and imperative in particular on a high revving motor .. and just for the Record the after market 71.6mm Triples Rule Barrels are and had to be on the Manx R3 ...

But just to add to that and not neccessary on a road bike unless you want to ride very hard ... unless the deck on the cases are square to the crank which they are not in most cases, the barrels in that case are still not sitting perpendicular to the stoke ..

On the Manx R3s the cases are decked square to the crank using a dummy crank as a jig ...

i have a picture here of some cases Charlie Barnes did for me (I hope the attachment works :)) ..
[Linked Image]


also interested why do you think the cam duration is to long ?

best regards
steve


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ooo now i have mastered attaching a picture ...
here is a couple of pictures of a light crank (less approx 3.5Kgs ) that pretty much mirrors Dave Madigan's drawing .. first one lined up for comparison next to a stock crank and installed in my T150 and the second pic the bottom end of the Manx R3 engine ..

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

HTH
Steve


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Budding mechanics notice the liberal use of assembly lube!

Steve have you ever checked the transmission main shaft centerline referenced to the two bearings that support the rear primary chain wheel? While most are out less than .010" I had one we fixed under warranty that was .125" plus (the dial indicator ran out of travel). The worst of these seemed to be in the late 1970 to 1972 production. I routinely find them .010" to .050". Makes the clutch into a universal joint.
John

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Hi John

how are you ...

yep the early R3s and 69 tridents are the worst for that in the mainshaft being out of alignment to the crank and bloody hard to fix. If it's too far out as you well know without major surgery hard to fix ... again as i have stated before you can mostly live with it being a bit out on a road bike and wont bother you to much ...

Now not telling you how to suck eggs as i am sure you know and I have seen from this site you are well educated in these things ...

hopefully as with the bad ones its mostly the gearbox main shaft alignment and not the crank (unusual)

A lot of the early ones dont have the high gear bearing correctly installed or the casting/engineering in the drive side gearbox casing is not square to the crank.

Takes a bit of welding and/or re engineering of the high gear bearing mount to fix .. two fixed points as you know are not easy to deal with .. and not a lot of room to move.. and of course misalignment affects more so the timing side of the gearbox and gear engagement of the gear box with the mainshaft out of whack .. so in answer to your question yes i attend to this and get the main shaft to align with the crank (using the timing side main shaft as a reference so its all true.

HTH

steve

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You mean the high gear housing has to be welded up and rebored with a new centre ?

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Hi Bon
it is a very rare issue and pretty much only with very early models .. I have only seen two examples and both on 69 R3s and only spotted it because they were being built as race engines so took the time to jig them up and measure ..

so the answer is i wouldn't worry ..

steve

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Hi snibor , the rods in that engine in the pictures above are very nice , what make are they ?

As for the gear shaft alignment issue , i'll do my best to check it later on , i am working on getting the engine or crankcases to sit in the slimline frame currently, the thing is i have googled trident tritons and a lot of the pictures show the bottom engine to frame lug above the bottom rail of the frame , does the engine actually need to sit down that low in the frame ? I can spread the rails but don't want to have to do this if i don't have to.

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Hi Bon
The Rods are Carrillo ..

not sure i fully understand what you mean on the frame ... i've not had anything to do with featherbed frames so don't know the issues ...

here is a picture of my road north and the engine sits pretty high in the north frame .. only the sump plate that sits below the frame line ..

[Linked Image]

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Looking into getting some new pushrods for the engine as the originals are nicked and tired , are chrome moly steel pushrods available ? With an engine that rev's so fast surely they are an asset ?

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Only one mention of the bigger carbs , obviously 30 mm as per F 750 engines if going for go ,, with appropriate manifolding /port
work . One should think . If the rests straight & spins freely .

Anyone got the old ' Cycle ' mag Greening tech report on the
factory F-750 racers ? please .

5 speed , ? ? . 4 ? . Try a 3 speed , youll find a gap or two between the gears .Less rev drop changeing up , with a decent box.The magazines whined about locking up the rear , downshifting , with the four speed . Due to the rpm differance .

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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Thanks very much for that article pre-unit , very illuminating , i often wondered what triumph did to produce bikes like slippery sam and make them genuinely competitive. Imho doug hele was a better designer and engineer then edward turner, much more hands on and innovative.

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[Linked Image]

No Worries . The ' Cycle ' magazine I think , had a more in depth development
saga , around then .Id given it to a Triple Type who recond hed never seen it when I asked after it . FUDGE .
Think it was Jim Greening , about six pages , covering all the development / reliability tricks of the aces .

A lot of relevant info contributed here by others . The last word on the M.M. is the summing up of priorities . Holds good for any build .Dont rush it .

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You can buy brand new cranks standard or race from Rob North Triples in the UK.They have a website so have a look.

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Here is my mates [Linked Image]Rob North trident t150 2 years in the making

The spec of the motor.
Valve train lightened and polished.
Nucleus wasted stem valves.
Head ported to accept 32mm carb's.
Center plug conversion
Head skimmed.
Norman Hyde 850 barrel .
Pistons 650 Bonnie with the valve pocket's machined to the correct angle .
10.5.1 compression .
alloy pushrod tubes with x ring seals
Work's cam's TH13 in TH6 Ex .
Thunder Engineering con rod's.
Standard crank apart from cross drilling 4th oil way.
Newby clutch conversion (save's over a stone in weight).
Timing gears lightened and polished.
High delivery oil pump.
32mm AMAL Concentric carb's
Short velocity stacks.
Boyer ignition .
Frame supplied by Rob North Triples as well as a lot more.

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Thanks for that ste , that must be race spec that engine surely ? I don't want to go anywhere near that far tuning wise , i am just looking for an engine thats oil tight , reliable and can maintain a decent speed without shaking me or itself to bits or pooing its pants.
So what i have learned from this thread so far and what i am going to do is lighten the crank , install new rods, lap all gasket faces, get the head gas flowed and get a high output oil pump. If i can afford to i would like to get a belt drive kit and run it dry. Seeing as the engine is going into a lightweight featherbed frame, with alloy everything (tanks , wheels , etc) i think it will be enough.
Anyone see any holes in my plan ? All advice welcomed.

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No problem bon,the bike is on the road and it runs sweet as a nut even with the works cams, your plan sounds ok to me just a couple of points I would add ,if I were you I would replace the standard push rod tubes with the alloy items better quality all round I would also fit the x ring seals again when you see them on the tube it becomes obvious why much better fit.IF you have the crank out why not get the cross drilling done cost's nothing . The clutch conversion is a lot of money but it is a fit and forget item,you just have to follow the various triple forums to see how much trouble a standard clutch is not only in maintenance, weight, complexity and reliability it's a must for me.

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What is this cross drilling and 4th oil way i have been hearing about ? Also does anyone have a picture showing where to drill to enlarge the oilways in the crankcases.

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The "4th oilway" is a second drilling from the left main to the centre rod journal. It mirrors the one from the right main to the centre rod journal. As far as I know it was never used on the factory race bikes.
The drilling from the oil filter cavity to the main cross holes is in the front of the centre case. They are blanked off with 5/16" hex head bolts. Obviously, you can only enlarge them to the minor diameter of the bolts unless you tap the case for larger bolts also.
If you are interested, I make adjustable pushrod tubes for standard and Hyde cylinders.
[Linked Image]
Here is the US team at Talladega:
[Linked Image]

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Thanks again dmadigan, i am a member over on triples online , but find the format of the forum a pain to be honest, good information by knowledgeable people though, just heavy going.
What does the 4th drilling achieve ? Does the centre big end suffer from oil starvation ? Also if i were to drill the oilways do i drill out the holes where the main crank shells sit too ?

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This is what you get for your money.
[Linked Image]

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The 4th oilway reduces the crank weight a little. I do not know of anyone who had problems with the centre rod big end oiling. The right rod bearing is also fed from the right main so if there was not enough oil to feed the centre rod then the right rod would also have problems and the right main would see more wear than the left.
The bearing already has the bearing material cut away for the existing feed so no change is needed there.
ste - does the gearbox outer cover come with the kit? It looks as though the oil pump is still gear driven These gears run without oil?

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Ok dave , yes the gearbox outer cover does come with kit as well as the belt and clutch cover.

Yes the oil pump is still gear driven ,but runs in oil, the cnc billet plate supplied fits over the inner casing sealing the oil pump and gears behind ,then the belt drive and clutch fit on top of that allowing the clutch to run dry.

The push rod tubes you supply look a nice bit of kit. Have you thought any more about a 8 valve top end.

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Ok bon the way it was explained to me was this ,if you have the oil ways done use a +50% oil pump and you do the cross drilling you will have a bullet proof bottom end.To some one that cut his teeth on triumphs in the seventies seeing trident after trident with rods hanging out of the crank cases any improvement in the oil supply is a good thing ,a common miss understanding with Tridents is that the rods are the problem ,big end's seizing up is the real problem.I have seen carillo rod's broken in two so don't be tempted to pay for them spend your money on getting the oil way's,oil pump +50% and cross drill the crank and make sure you are meticulous with the engine preparation , the extra volume of oil the pump puts through your motor also helps with cooling. I do not now what level of engineering ability or equipment you have available but if you have any worries give it to a engineer with the experience in doing the job.

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Thanks for that ste , as money is tight for bike projects at the mo i only want to spend it on the essentials , a set of new conrods is one , how much would a high output pump set me back ? I do have a lathe and a pillar drill, plus access to a milling machine ,i am time served in engineering so i will look further into the drilling of the crankshaft and oilways.

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Triple bottom ends were always regarded as pretty much bulletproof if the bike was cared for. That would include warming it up before riding hard and changing the oil regularly as well as keeping the quantity up. They are plain bearing cranks and very sensitive to oil quality and supply. I have heard the horror stories and was around when Tridents and Commando's were traded in and sat on the floor for years as people switched to Z1's and 750 4's. Quite honestly most people who ran Brit bikes and moved to the Japs were not very tolerant of their machinery. I rode and fixed a lot of those second and third hand machines and very few of them were set up to run properly. Hence the reliability issues. I only threw one rod on a Trident and that was my own fault, ran it low on oil once and then it was only matter of time. It certainly does not hurt to enlarge oil ways but I think the one major improvement in the oil system is the enlarged feed to the oil pump which the T160 had from factory.

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Quote
I think the one major improvement in the oil system is the enlarged feed to the oil pump which the T160 had from factory.


Amen! This helps a lot from "dry" start-ups and was a real improvement.

While you can break any rod, you are much less apt to break a Carillo in a Trident when the rod bearing locks up from lack of oil.

Some other things a lot of you understand, but you guys never seem to talk about:
If oil pressure falls below 60 pounds it is time to check the main bearings before you put a right rod through the cases, camshaft, cylinder, etc. Never race a Trident when the oil pressure falls to 60 pounds!!!

When changing the oil filter fill the filter cavity with oil before putting the cover on. Failing this, it takes time for the pump to fill the cavity and the mains are fed directly from the oil filter cavity. The mains run dry, as do the rods, until the cavity is filled. You can sure kill a Trident with kindness...

If you have had the crankshaft center mains ground be sure to check them for concentricity with the crankshaft ball and roller bosses before offering the crankshaft to the engine. I must have 15 T150/T160/A75 crankshafts upstairs that have had the mains ground where they are not Concentric with the two outside bearing bosses. Some are so much out, that the crankshaft would not turn when the outside cases were offered. Others with .0005", or a tad more, that would turn freely but would have wiped the bearing shell when used.

Never use the stock crankshaft oil pump pinion with a modern, large inner radius, drive side main bearing. Always use the ones made by David Holder with the larger shoulder to ride against the side of the bearing and not get sucked into the radius as you tighten the sprocket nut.

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Unless you want the experience of drilling the crank, I do not believe there is much benefit to the fourth oilway. The US race team did not use it. Presumably you already deleted the tappet oil feeds so there already is more oil available for the rods and mains.
Instead of a 50% pump (no idea of the cost) you can increase oil flow this way:
[Linked Image]
The sprockets and chain are from a Virago and gives a 25% increase in pump speed. The pump shaft has to have a second flat to match the Virago gear but amazingly that is all. The engine sprocket needs a spacer to fit the triple crank. The splines on the drive gear are overkill. The gear is clamped between the output sprocket and main bearing and the pump power requirements is really low. The Virago does not spline the pump drive gear on the crank.
The slipper pad has a set screw that pushes on the case boss to set the tension.
If you want to spend money on reliability, replace the adjusters with 911 elephant foot type. They spread out the contact patch and you will have very little wear on the valves.
[Linked Image]
A mushroom adjuster is still a point contact, just harder material than the stock adjusters. No lash cap is necessary with the 911 adjuster.

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Being that the standard pump is supplying enough oil to build pressure, where it will open the by-pass valve, what are you doing to the engine to keep the extra volume from just going out the by-pass?

Do you do like most users of high volume pumps in racing applications increase the main and rod bearing clearances, if so how much?

Then if, as I suspect, a lot more, if not all of the extra volume, oil is diverted through the by-pass are you making changes to allow the by-pass to handle the extra volume of a 50% larger pump?

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Ok bon sounds like you have all the skills and equipment required I think the pumps are around £250 from UK suppliers Rob North Triples,P&M I am not aware of any US dealers that supply them but they must be some one Big D may be or triple tech.

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Bon a complete set of high capacity oil pump with the lightened gears cost more than 450 sterling pounds plus vat outch!!!!!!!!250 sterling pounds is an old price without 20%vat.As you have see on tridents you can do many modifications for reliability and performance while the prices are too high, also to rebuild the engine is twice difficult than a twin triumph engine.Finally to fit in featherbed you will must to cut and widely the bottom rails of the frame.But i see that you like the expensive and difficult things.Never mind we have the same spirit.Cheers Kostas.

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To be honest kostas , i was told the trident was expensive to buy spare parts for , but while i think this might have been true maybe 10 years or so , i don't think it is today , the prices for parts for the big twins are expensive now and probabily more expensive then the trident. I personally think this is because the classic motorcycle magazines never stop singing the praises of the bonniville, rocket goldie, dommys etc. the days of picking up cheap old brit twins to rasp around on are long gone.

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Hi Bon ,the North in ste's video is mine and was my first foray into the world of Triumph Triples - though not Triumphs !. And as you can see oppions differ greatly .
I'm supprised that Dave does not embrace the "cross drilling" of the crank - when he upgrades (superbly) everything else .As it was told to me ; it improves the reliability and balance of oil being fed from the main bearings to the big ends( i can't say if the "works" bike had it done - but the coloured engine lubrication chart found in factory workshop manuals shows the crank completly "cross" drilled . And at a cost of £40 "why" would i not have it done !!!).
The uprated Oil pump does indeed improve flow 30% on mine ( again another tick for reliablity !)- but as i understand it the biggest gain is the 50% increase on the the scavenge (return) , which all in all circulates more oil (never a bad thing) and the engine runs a lot cooler (again a good thing!).
Enlarging ( a specialist job - like the Cross drilling in my oppinion ) the Oil feed & return Pipes and oilways is a must - but dont forget to fit an enlarged feed from the oil tank also.
The list is endless when to comes to modifacations . Some like smoothing out and polishing the rockers you can do yourself , lightening anything on the valve train gives dividends , i also had my cylinder head coverted to centre spark plugs to give a cleaner burn and lessen pinking ( £60 ).
Though my motor is all but full race spec a good cam for fast road use is Megacycles x5 (also known as a high torque cam), because it's very strong in the midrange .
Try to find a specialist who gives good advice freely , the Manual available from the Trident and Rocket 3 Owners Club is a must and should be read from cover to cover befor you make any decisions on what to do.
Forums are great but can give huge coflicting advice .Even at full race spec my motor starts readily - runs quite and as sweet as a sewing machine - i'd like to think it's because i listened to some very good advice from peaple who know their stuff , fitted good quality parts and spent many hours in preperation .
So best of luck with your project and if i can be of any help just ask .
Pete

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Hello and welcome and thanks for the advice PAC , i have worked on the triumph twins for years as i commute on a 500 , so need to be able to maintain it regularly , the triples i always assumed were a twin with an extra cylinder attached , this was a mistake ,they are completely different.
Knowing what to do to ensure the engine is reliable is the first and most important consideration for me, a bit more pep is always welcome though, but as money is tight i don't mind if i can't do much on that front.
The modifications to the lubrication and breathing system seem to be the most important.

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Somewhere , sometime , when you least expect it . . . [Linked Image]
someone menioned it Somewhere .

Jim Rices machine .
http://www.motohistory.net/news2008/news-may08.html

[Linked Image]

Rayguns , mandatory . Tri - Ton - down - bypass .

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by John Healy
Being that the standard pump is supplying enough oil to build pressure, where it will open the by-pass valve, what are you doing to the engine to keep the extra volume from just going out the by-pass?

Do you do like most users of high volume pumps in racing applications increase the main and rod bearing clearances, if so how much?

Then if, as I suspect, a lot more, if not all of the extra volume, oil is diverted through the by-pass are you making changes to allow the by-pass to handle the extra volume of a 50% larger pump?


Hi John ... yes the +50 pumps did indeed pass the oil straight past the pressure release valves especially if lighter weight oils are not used ....

The newer high capacity pump is +30% input and +50% scavenge ... in my case on the race bikes , as i believe many other race bikes do, I run a 10/40 fully synthetic which allows very good use of the +30% on the input side of the pump and allows it to be as it was designed high capacity and not high pressure ...

Steve

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Morgan sorry for the use of all this bandwidth!
Steve:
This creates a conundrum. Our crankshaft finishes do not warrant the use of lighter viscosity oil. The technology used to finish these crankshafts dictates the use of 20/50 as stated by Triumph, and most other British motorcycle manufactures of the day. Over the past 25 years we have had an on going conversation about these things in Vintage Bike. While you might not be familiar with the author of these musing, Kevin Cameron is a noted motorcycle engineer and journalist. He enjoys writing for Vintage Bike because he doesn't have to study every word being afraid that he might offend some advertiser - He can present engineering as it is not as the advertisers want you to believe.

These are copies from various article he has written for my magazine:
"Present-day plain-bearing engines are designed to operate with lower-viscosity oils than was formerly the case, with the goal of reducing engine friction. Many an owner of older bikes has heard only this much - that lower-vis oils are "horsepower in a can"! Glug-glug, in chugs the 0W-15 oil, filling the tank of the older engine. At start-up, the idle is slightly faster. Look! It's working already! Free horsepower! Eagerly the experimenter rides off to find out how much extra top speed his oil change has bought him. What is his reward? Scored valve tappets, piston seizure, spun con-rod bearings? Take your pick. Oil carries loads through its viscosity. When the engine was originally developed, its engineers performed oil tests to discover what oil viscosity was required to adequately protect its parts. That is then printed in the owners' Manual ­ and the number doesn't change just because later-designed engines are designed in detail to run on lighter oils.

To carry heavy loads with thinner oil, the minimum oil film thickness at peak load has to decrease. Since the number is already quite small ­ of the order of two microns (1 micron = .000039"), and since the roughness and out-of-round of crankpins manufactured 30-40 years ago (or refinished today) is not much less, the only way we can do this is to produce more truly round and locally very smooth crankpins. The "Superfinish" process employed in present-day auto and motorcycle engine factories was, like so much else, developed during WW II and then forgotten in easy-money days of the postwar boom. The Superfinish process is not to be confused with the 'micro-polish' offered by crank regrind shops, which is the same as shoe-polishing.

The point? Without such highly-finished crankpins, use of lighter oils in engines not designed for them invites failure. Further, current engines all have full-flow oil filtration to protect their smaller clearances from the dreaded Foreign Object Damage."

and

"Hold on. Shouldn't we examine the engine as a system, rather than just seeking to give it MORE of everything? The first point to make is that oil pump pressure does not support the load in a plain bearing. Long ago it was discovered that it is viscosity, combined with the motion of the bearing, that sweeps oil into the loaded zone. There, oil pressure reaches values (which have been measured directly) of several thousand psi. A moment's thought shows this must be true. The mass of one piston, wristpin, rings, and con-rod is of the order of a pound, and the loaded area of the rod's big-end bearing is of the order of a square inch. At a Triumph's peak revs, maximum piston acceleration is about 2500Gs. Therefore average pressure in the oil film of the big-end bearing, resulting from this inertia force at TDC on the exhaust stroke, is of the order of 2500-psi. No engine oil pump generates even a tenth of that. Or, look at combustion load. A 650's bore of 71-mm gives it a piston area of about six square inches. Peak combustion pressure, by rule-of-thumb, is one hundred times the compression ratio, so that gives us about 800-psi. That, times the piston area gives us a down-force on the big-end bearing of 4800 pounds. "

"Therefore the oil pump's job is just to push oil into the unloaded half of the bearing, while the pressure to support the load is generated on the other side of the bearing by viscosity and bearing motion. Oil enters the bearing through the crankpin oil hole(s) during that phase of bearing action when the oil hole is in the unloaded, or "clearance" part of the bearing. Typical oil film thickness in the loaded part of the bearing, at peak load, is something like .00006 inch."

Kevin goes on to say that extra flow is warranted in some applications, but provisions must be made to handle it. Oil flow, and thus oil pressure, is determined by the resistance to its flow through the crankshaft, plain bearing and rod side clearance and the set pressure of the oil by-pass valve spring.

If there is any benefit using a high volume pump on a Trident, where the by-pass directs oil directly toward the oil cooler it is offset by the heat generated as the oil is compressed as it pass through the oil pump.

The big benefit will come when the rod side clearance is increased and the clearance of the plain bearing is increased by as much as .0005". With the increased flow of the high volume pump you will retain pressure and increase rod cooling.

and from my perspective:
The disadvantages of a high flow pump is heats the oil more than a standard pump, requires more engine power to run it, and unless there are some modifications made to the oiling system all of the extra volume just exits through the by-pass valve. Of course that is if the by-pass valve system can handle the volume (Using a Morgo rotary Triumph 500 twins cannot handle the volume and the by-pass system must be modified - The 650-750 bypass system is just barely able to handle the extra oil). In systems were oil flow to the crankshaft is through a seal, it can routinely invert the seal.

This is common when a Morgo rotary is used in a Triumph twin, especially during a cold start-up or high rpm. Race engines with high volume oiling systems, using rather viscous oil, are routinely warmed with electrical heaters before starting.
John Healy - Vintage Bike Magazine

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Willie Makeit .

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Obviously the pipes require consideration in regard to Ground Clearance . AND tidyness

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Just seen your pictures now pre unit , the first picture of the triton with no fuel tank on it is the business, especially the exhaust down pipes. Its exactly what i want to build , twin front disc brakes and everything. I think the rear set footrests are a bit to rearset though !

Back to the endless questions , do tridents need head steadies ? I am sure i have seen some trident specials that don't have them , did the originals have them ? I need to know as i am in the process of doing some welding on the frame , spreading the bottom rails to let the sump drop in , thats another question , does the trident engine sit centrally in the frame or will it have to be offset to one side or the other ? I know its a long shot but someone might know.
Thanks

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The engine drive sprocket is 2.72" from the engine centreline. You should be able to work out the engine position from where your rear sprocket sits.
The stock bike has a head steady. The racers had a cross brace that picked up the intake rockerbox bolts and the frame side rails. If you have a flexible frame you might not want one. On dirt tracker twins they frequently left them off because the frame tweaked the motor loosing power.
On the rearsets, you want them where you can lift yourself off the seat with your feet without having to use the bars for balance.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
The engine drive sprocket is 2.72" from the engine centreline.

That dimension must surely be the inner face of the sprocket.If the sprocket is 0.350" wide,that would put the chain centreline at 2.895" from frame centre.

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No, the centreline of the sprocket to the centreline of the engine. The triple's engine sprocket is further inboard than a twin's.
The reason that the right inner head bolt holes in the rockerboxes are larger diameter than the others is so the bolt can be tilted to clear the backbone because the engine is mounted to the left of centre of the frame. Probably the consequence of using the dry clutch behind the chainwheel. If they had used the usual wet clutch then they would have had to use a much wider rear tyre or shift the engine to the right. Neither would have been acceptable to the buying public. The Quadrant four cylinder was extremely offset to the right to keep the engine sprocket in line with the skinny rear tyre.

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Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by DMadigan
The Quadrant four cylinder was extremely offset to the right to keep the engine sprocket in line with the skinny rear tyre.

Sort of. At the risk of repeating a lot of what you probably know already ...

The 'Quadrent' (sic - derived from 'Trid-ent') was simply a proof-of-concept by Doug Hele's team for Dennis Poore. As such, it was built from as many standard triple components - often around already from previous projects - as possible, modified only if necessary. Thus, the Quadrent cycle parts are R3, and most of the bottom end - including the gearbox - is standard triple.

So what would've been a standard triple centre crankcase section sits in the standard place in the standard R3 frame. The drive-side crankcase section is standard triple, as are the primary components and clutch, and the standard 5-speed gearbox is in the standard position in the centre crankcase section. So the primary and final drives all line up with no more work than is required on any triple.

The fourth cylinder was added on the timing side by first bolting on a modified timing-side crankcase section to the standard centre crankcase section, then bolting a standard timing-side crankcase section outboard of the modified one. That's why the engine appears "offset to the right"; it made little enough financial and engineering sense to have built the triple bottom ends from so many individual castings; it would've been plain ridiculous to have built a production four from even more.

Fwiw, when George Pooley built his 'Quadrent', he used two centre crankcase sections and centred the whole engine in the frame.

Hth.

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Thanks . I disregarde all the inferior ones .

Triples DONT need head steadies . FEATHERBEDS DO .

The longitudeinal Brakeing and Suspension Motion forces
TWIST across the frame where the down & top tubes cross.

Its a RATHER IMPORTANT fixture .Theres the story of the Manx Vincent & the Toff at Pukekohe. ( I did tell him ) Around about
\the fifth meeting , the front of the frame fell off at about 70 mph in the L.H. sweeper toward the hill.Everyone got a good view
anyway , and he got a round of applause , Im told .

Id use standard 2 to 2 1/2 x the bolt dia as min edge distance ,
Pref 6 mm ( 1/4 in ) plate if Alloy , and you can always trim it back later if its oversize .Will be some good picture of MANX ones in ancient magazine drawings , or elsewhere.
The old shanked bolts / press fit trick for the cross bolts ,
please .

The Wee E 49 , illustrateing theres a wee bit of Energy invovled in optimiseing
exhaust performance .

[Linked Image]

Open flowing bends as per the Works Triples with 3 - 1 and 30 mm carbs
may well let it breath a little more freely . Straighter front section
parralleling downtubes would be indicative of a tidy mind .
Some Collectors are shallow angle with sectored central toungue, to maintain
velocity to secondary system . If you can get the heat envigorateing there ,
as per the 132 mph record BSA , (see the heat patterns ) optimum top end results .

Highly adviseable to run chokes or enricher for jetting procedure .IF the power increases
applying choke , YOURE TO LEAN . Cut Immediately . If it slows , youre safer , To rich .

( Rover 1950 / 51 ' 75 ' jet adjusting proceedure, per Manual )Run @ full throttle @ operateing temperature, stable . Apply some choke .DYNO's typically give LEANER than
required jetting . As they arnt quite pulling there weight , drag , air & other things .

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Does anyone out there know how to access the info for the oil gallery mods for older t150's to upgrade to t160 specs? Does the oil pump also need upgrading?

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Hi

yep all the bits and pieces scavenged from other projects ...
The chassis for the factory quadrent was reportedly stolen from the double over head cam Rocket 3 project ... hence why the factory DOHC R3 engine which still exists is now installed in a chassis of unknown origin ..

HTH
steve

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I went for the T150v 1000 norman hyde Road kit. At first I had head gasket problems & oil leaks. I then WellSeal'd everything & that seems to have cured the problem. I also flowed the T160 head. Oil seals on the inlet guides & solid tappets. Standard carbs (bigger jets) Standard cams. Had to buy a new modified lay shaft (P&M). The older version the dog broke up. P&M clutch. I am quite happy with the overall performance. Often thought about an oil conversion. I would also have to increase the passages through the Hyde Norton external oil filter.

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just found this on U Tube .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7RuheaXl4

Cooel Exhaust . Sounds like all the pieces are there .

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Originally Posted by Pre Unit
just found this on U Tube .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7RuheaXl4

Cooel Exhaust . Sounds like all the pieces are there .


Yes i seen that vid pre unit and its just the sort of machine that i want to build, i asked the guy to come on here and tell us about it as its a real piece of motorcycle art.

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Hey guys. Where does one buy the Bob Newby clutch converstion kit to include the primary cover? Any idea on how much these kits cost?

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Thank LAB, I contacted Bob and he sells just the belt drive but not all the components needed for the entire Kit to include the Quaife 5 speed gearbox. Bob Newby said it's available possibly from P&M Cycles in the UK but I've not had an opportunity to call them yet. Thanks.

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The belt drive needs a drilled mainshaft for the clutch pushrod (actuated by a twin lifter in the gearbox cover). I am not sure but presume the Newby clutch fits on a standard mainshaft. You may be able to have the shaft drilled.

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One thing I like to do is extend the oil return dowels from the head through the barrels. I usually use an inch/25mm of tube for this.
I then counter drill the barrels and head to account for this increase. But I also run a NH 1000cc kit and the head sits a little bit higher on the lip of the bores.

Doing this - in my opinion - means that there is less chance of the oilway being affected by piston vacuum and pressure. It also means that, if you are using a sealant, the chances of any sealant flowing into the oilway when you tension the head down is negated.

I am not saying everyone needs to do this, I just saw benefit in it and the room was there to do it.

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Really common sens engine mode I did was doweling the rocker boxes.
It'll keep rocker box gaskets in place.

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Originally Posted by Adam M.
Really common sens engine mode I did was doweling the rocker boxes.
It'll keep rocker box gaskets in place.

Adam, can you please elaborate on how you did this ?
I have a persistent (small) oil leak from a rockerbox gasket.
Replacement of the gasket only cured the leak for a short while.


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Originally Posted by ste
This is what you get for your money.
[Linked Image]


In this setup is there no cush drive? If so does the belt serve as the cush drive. Is there a big empty space were the clutch used to be?

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Yes, no cush drive and a big hole where the clutch was with the belt setup. The belt has steel cable running through it to provide flex but the stretch is nil (except for the modulus of elasticity of steel). Somewhat surprised there is not a belt drive for the pump. I think an offset sprocket is available to allow a wider rear tyre on a race bike.
Two ways to dowel the rockerboxes, using the outer two 5/16" bolt holes or the 1/4" bolts at the ends of the rockerbox. There is not enough material around the hole on the AM heads to use the 5/16" holes. The 1/4" holes can use used on either. The dowels are pressed into the rockerbox and slip fit in the head. You need a mill with a digital readout or CNC to do this properly.
As long as you are doing this you should spot face the three 1/4" holes at the pocket lip with a 7/16" end mill and use button head screws which have 64% more area under the head and less likely to crush the material around the holes.

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I am looking for info on this too..... there was an article in the British mags, many years ago....May have been by Norman Hyde. I read it and lost it... sigh !! I wish I had kept it... but it did involve a stepped down reamer to enlarge the oilway and fit a T160V oil feed pipe. also drilling open the corresponding oil feed hole in the oil pump, and crankcase. ... also the oil tank filter and piping.
That is all I can remember..... not much help sorry.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Yes, no cush drive and a big hole where the clutch was with the belt setup. The belt has steel cable running through it to provide flex but the stretch is nil (except for the modulus of elasticity of steel). Somewhat surprised there is not a belt drive for the pump. I think an offset sprocket is available to allow a wider rear tyre on a race bike.
Two ways to dowel the rockerboxes, using the outer two 5/16" bolt holes or the 1/4" bolts at the ends of the rockerbox. There is not enough material around the hole on the AM heads to use the 5/16" holes. The 1/4" holes can use used on either. The dowels are pressed into the rockerbox and slip fit in the head. You need a mill with a digital readout or CNC to do this properly.
As long as you are doing this you should spot face the three 1/4" holes at the pocket lip with a 7/16" end mill and use button head screws which have 64% more area under the head and less likely to crush the material around the holes.
I've always wanted to implement those things David, ever since you first described it to me. I've used 5/16" dowels on my AM head, no problem. I had my machinist drill through the rocker box and into the head. He then made and inserted sleeves through it, which protrudes and acts as a dowel. No chance for misalignment. Strangely enough the "Covseal" gaskets fitted over the dowels with no modifications.
I spot faced the 1/4" holes myself and used my own "button heads" as I couldn't find any locally. In addition, I drilled out the threads and used nuts and washers on the under side, to add some elasticity. I've only just tested it, but so far so good.

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Ha - I did the same with button heads bolts, only problem my exhaust finned clips interfere with those nuts a little.

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