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I started with a spray on gasket sealer from permatex on cooper rocker box gaskets and it leaked like a sieve. Took it back apart, cleaned the mess up and put it back together with a lite smear of RTV and it's dry as bone now.


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I always anneal copper gaskets to soften them even if they are new as a matter of course, it seems to work , i don't think the manufacturers bother to do it. As for the notorious push rod tubes, i have found the aluminium ones made in the uk by tri-cor always seal well.

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Originally Posted by Pete R
The standard cylinder barrel is bored and faced square from the top.That should still be correct until someone bores it again.There can be out-of-parallel errors at the bottom face.
This could equally apply to after-market barrels.

Personally,I think these engines have too much cam duration for their own good as a street engine.It might be different with a long-stroke crank.




Hi Peter
the barrels being square to the perpendicular of the bore is absolutely important as you say and imperative in particular on a high revving motor .. and just for the Record the after market 71.6mm Triples Rule Barrels are and had to be on the Manx R3 ...

But just to add to that and not neccessary on a road bike unless you want to ride very hard ... unless the deck on the cases are square to the crank which they are not in most cases, the barrels in that case are still not sitting perpendicular to the stoke ..

On the Manx R3s the cases are decked square to the crank using a dummy crank as a jig ...

i have a picture here of some cases Charlie Barnes did for me (I hope the attachment works :)) ..
[Linked Image]


also interested why do you think the cam duration is to long ?

best regards
steve


Last edited by snibor; 02/06/12 1:45 pm.
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ooo now i have mastered attaching a picture ...
here is a couple of pictures of a light crank (less approx 3.5Kgs ) that pretty much mirrors Dave Madigan's drawing .. first one lined up for comparison next to a stock crank and installed in my T150 and the second pic the bottom end of the Manx R3 engine ..

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

HTH
Steve


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Budding mechanics notice the liberal use of assembly lube!

Steve have you ever checked the transmission main shaft centerline referenced to the two bearings that support the rear primary chain wheel? While most are out less than .010" I had one we fixed under warranty that was .125" plus (the dial indicator ran out of travel). The worst of these seemed to be in the late 1970 to 1972 production. I routinely find them .010" to .050". Makes the clutch into a universal joint.
John

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Hi John

how are you ...

yep the early R3s and 69 tridents are the worst for that in the mainshaft being out of alignment to the crank and bloody hard to fix. If it's too far out as you well know without major surgery hard to fix ... again as i have stated before you can mostly live with it being a bit out on a road bike and wont bother you to much ...

Now not telling you how to suck eggs as i am sure you know and I have seen from this site you are well educated in these things ...

hopefully as with the bad ones its mostly the gearbox main shaft alignment and not the crank (unusual)

A lot of the early ones dont have the high gear bearing correctly installed or the casting/engineering in the drive side gearbox casing is not square to the crank.

Takes a bit of welding and/or re engineering of the high gear bearing mount to fix .. two fixed points as you know are not easy to deal with .. and not a lot of room to move.. and of course misalignment affects more so the timing side of the gearbox and gear engagement of the gear box with the mainshaft out of whack .. so in answer to your question yes i attend to this and get the main shaft to align with the crank (using the timing side main shaft as a reference so its all true.

HTH

steve

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You mean the high gear housing has to be welded up and rebored with a new centre ?

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Hi Bon
it is a very rare issue and pretty much only with very early models .. I have only seen two examples and both on 69 R3s and only spotted it because they were being built as race engines so took the time to jig them up and measure ..

so the answer is i wouldn't worry ..

steve

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Hi snibor , the rods in that engine in the pictures above are very nice , what make are they ?

As for the gear shaft alignment issue , i'll do my best to check it later on , i am working on getting the engine or crankcases to sit in the slimline frame currently, the thing is i have googled trident tritons and a lot of the pictures show the bottom engine to frame lug above the bottom rail of the frame , does the engine actually need to sit down that low in the frame ? I can spread the rails but don't want to have to do this if i don't have to.

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Hi Bon
The Rods are Carrillo ..

not sure i fully understand what you mean on the frame ... i've not had anything to do with featherbed frames so don't know the issues ...

here is a picture of my road north and the engine sits pretty high in the north frame .. only the sump plate that sits below the frame line ..

[Linked Image]

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Looking into getting some new pushrods for the engine as the originals are nicked and tired , are chrome moly steel pushrods available ? With an engine that rev's so fast surely they are an asset ?

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Only one mention of the bigger carbs , obviously 30 mm as per F 750 engines if going for go ,, with appropriate manifolding /port
work . One should think . If the rests straight & spins freely .

Anyone got the old ' Cycle ' mag Greening tech report on the
factory F-750 racers ? please .

5 speed , ? ? . 4 ? . Try a 3 speed , youll find a gap or two between the gears .Less rev drop changeing up , with a decent box.The magazines whined about locking up the rear , downshifting , with the four speed . Due to the rpm differance .

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[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Thanks very much for that article pre-unit , very illuminating , i often wondered what triumph did to produce bikes like slippery sam and make them genuinely competitive. Imho doug hele was a better designer and engineer then edward turner, much more hands on and innovative.

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[Linked Image]

No Worries . The ' Cycle ' magazine I think , had a more in depth development
saga , around then .Id given it to a Triple Type who recond hed never seen it when I asked after it . FUDGE .
Think it was Jim Greening , about six pages , covering all the development / reliability tricks of the aces .

A lot of relevant info contributed here by others . The last word on the M.M. is the summing up of priorities . Holds good for any build .Dont rush it .

Last edited by Pre Unit; 02/15/12 6:29 am.
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You can buy brand new cranks standard or race from Rob North Triples in the UK.They have a website so have a look.

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Here is my mates [Linked Image]Rob North trident t150 2 years in the making

The spec of the motor.
Valve train lightened and polished.
Nucleus wasted stem valves.
Head ported to accept 32mm carb's.
Center plug conversion
Head skimmed.
Norman Hyde 850 barrel .
Pistons 650 Bonnie with the valve pocket's machined to the correct angle .
10.5.1 compression .
alloy pushrod tubes with x ring seals
Work's cam's TH13 in TH6 Ex .
Thunder Engineering con rod's.
Standard crank apart from cross drilling 4th oil way.
Newby clutch conversion (save's over a stone in weight).
Timing gears lightened and polished.
High delivery oil pump.
32mm AMAL Concentric carb's
Short velocity stacks.
Boyer ignition .
Frame supplied by Rob North Triples as well as a lot more.

Last edited by ste; 02/17/12 3:45 pm.
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Thanks for that ste , that must be race spec that engine surely ? I don't want to go anywhere near that far tuning wise , i am just looking for an engine thats oil tight , reliable and can maintain a decent speed without shaking me or itself to bits or pooing its pants.
So what i have learned from this thread so far and what i am going to do is lighten the crank , install new rods, lap all gasket faces, get the head gas flowed and get a high output oil pump. If i can afford to i would like to get a belt drive kit and run it dry. Seeing as the engine is going into a lightweight featherbed frame, with alloy everything (tanks , wheels , etc) i think it will be enough.
Anyone see any holes in my plan ? All advice welcomed.

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No problem bon,the bike is on the road and it runs sweet as a nut even with the works cams, your plan sounds ok to me just a couple of points I would add ,if I were you I would replace the standard push rod tubes with the alloy items better quality all round I would also fit the x ring seals again when you see them on the tube it becomes obvious why much better fit.IF you have the crank out why not get the cross drilling done cost's nothing . The clutch conversion is a lot of money but it is a fit and forget item,you just have to follow the various triple forums to see how much trouble a standard clutch is not only in maintenance, weight, complexity and reliability it's a must for me.

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What is this cross drilling and 4th oil way i have been hearing about ? Also does anyone have a picture showing where to drill to enlarge the oilways in the crankcases.

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The "4th oilway" is a second drilling from the left main to the centre rod journal. It mirrors the one from the right main to the centre rod journal. As far as I know it was never used on the factory race bikes.
The drilling from the oil filter cavity to the main cross holes is in the front of the centre case. They are blanked off with 5/16" hex head bolts. Obviously, you can only enlarge them to the minor diameter of the bolts unless you tap the case for larger bolts also.
If you are interested, I make adjustable pushrod tubes for standard and Hyde cylinders.
[Linked Image]
Here is the US team at Talladega:
[Linked Image]

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Thanks again dmadigan, i am a member over on triples online , but find the format of the forum a pain to be honest, good information by knowledgeable people though, just heavy going.
What does the 4th drilling achieve ? Does the centre big end suffer from oil starvation ? Also if i were to drill the oilways do i drill out the holes where the main crank shells sit too ?

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This is what you get for your money.
[Linked Image]

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The 4th oilway reduces the crank weight a little. I do not know of anyone who had problems with the centre rod big end oiling. The right rod bearing is also fed from the right main so if there was not enough oil to feed the centre rod then the right rod would also have problems and the right main would see more wear than the left.
The bearing already has the bearing material cut away for the existing feed so no change is needed there.
ste - does the gearbox outer cover come with the kit? It looks as though the oil pump is still gear driven These gears run without oil?

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Ok dave , yes the gearbox outer cover does come with kit as well as the belt and clutch cover.

Yes the oil pump is still gear driven ,but runs in oil, the cnc billet plate supplied fits over the inner casing sealing the oil pump and gears behind ,then the belt drive and clutch fit on top of that allowing the clutch to run dry.

The push rod tubes you supply look a nice bit of kit. Have you thought any more about a 8 valve top end.

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