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Folks I've talked myself into trying a sidecar rig for my camping adventures.

With the help of Floyd Goff (aka Sonny) I'm picking up a 1979 Velorex car tomorrow. D. Bachtel has been kind enough to take me under his wing with LOTS of pictures and info.

Also....Barb a well known hacker laughing herself has been talking me through some of it too. Actually I have Don, Shaun, Bryan, and Barb to blame. laughing

I wanted to start this thread so anybody interested can join along on this build/set up.

I know VERY little about sidecars. I'm learning but I'm still in the dark about a lot of set up stuff. Not to mention that I have never ridden/drove one so we'll have to go through that too. My long range plan is to build a "car specific" unit single out of the many I have to choose from here in the shop. But short range plans are to attach the Velorex to my 1967 B44VR.

Now, there's no need to start bashing the BSA unit single for a side car tug. That part is going to happen one way or the other and I'm going to deal with it. I KNOW there are better suited bikes out there...but the unit single is what I'm going to use...period.

I have some pictures of a beautiful B50 rig on my camping thread. I have that option too but for now, it's the B44VR.

I'll start posting pictures soon and welcome ANY and ALL help, suggestions, comments you have.

I'm hoping that through this thread we'll (bb.com) have some side car tech that people can use in the future.

First on the list of things to do is designing and building a subframe (something I had never heard of until a couple of weeks ago).

I'm also looking at moving the B44VRs exhaust to the left side, something I would rather NOT do but might have to anyway.

Okay enought for now. I'll post some pictures tomorrow once I have the car back to it's new home...and sitting next to it's new tug.

Take care...."Are three wheels better than two?" Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 02/28/10 7:35 pm.

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The TR25W had a left side high level exhaust setup, think is was for 70 only or it could have been the 70 US only Starfire, could be a basis for your change of side for exhaust.

There is a very cute looking OIF single with a sidecar for sale in UK, will post the pictures if I can find it.

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I have a couple of the "left side" head pipes...but hope I don''t have to use them.

I have had ED V make up a head pipe before....If I have to go with moving it to the left I'll see if he can help.

One of the things I REALLY like about the VR is the low level exhaust....oh and those lovely plastic tank badges.

I'm hoping that when I get the car set up beside the bike it'll come to me how to make it work....but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'd love to see as many photo's as I can get of a unit single being used as a tug. smile

Thanks for taking the time to reply :bigt....now back to Hockey...Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 02/28/10 10:06 pm.

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Gordon , I have some pics of a 250 shooting star with a sidecar , I'll take a look and post them if I can find them. That rig was piloted by a Scottish couple that I ran into at a CVMG rally about ten years ago . I was impressed with the way that machine got down the road , I doubt you will have any trouble dialing in the B-44. A couple of points I would mention that we didn't talk about might be gearing . I found that stock gearing didn't get it when I had a sidecar , I ended up gearing lower. This helps you to control the combo better with engine speed , you will want to keep it on the cam a bit when you are going into turns . I don't have much experience with the unit singles but if it is geared for the road you might wanna look into it , all a matter of tatse and riding style I suppose . One other thing might be the exhaust . I didn't have any complaints with the A-65 but if you get a lot of noise in the car you should be able to just add an extensionto put the exhaust behind the chair , or are you planning to switch sides for mounting issues?


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Bonzo, I was thinking I might have an interference issue with the exhaust.....but...you got me to thinking...if you didn't have a problem with a twin...and were'nt using a 2 into 1, then I might not have a problem.

I have no intention of having anybody ride in the chair...just camping gear so noise isn't an issue.

Sorry for having to get off the phone, my wife's (and you know how womwn can be) was expecting a call from her mom.

I'd LOVE to see those pictures if and when you get a chance.

I leave tomorrow early to pick the car up....I'm excited and thank you for the advise you shared.

Take care...your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray


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Can't seem to find the one I was looking but these maybe of interest.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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Thanks K for sharing. I got my car home tonight and will start taking pictures tomorrow. It's going to be slow...since I'm CLUELESS, but I'm going to start the process and with the help of others...get it done. Hopefully it'll be useful to somebody else later on.

Those pictures you posted...are very nice. I REALLY like the C15...man that's sweet.

When I think about it, that's JUST the way I've looked at sidecar rigs in the past...stand back and admire the bike...go around to the other side and look the car over BUT...I've never paid attention to HOW they were attached.... confused


Well, I might not know everything there is to know about these things...but thank goodness, at least I know WHO to ask... laughing

Thanks again for taking the time to share....take care, Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/02/10 4:04 am.

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Gordon: Your plan sounds like a great idea. The B44 will do the job just fine if it is geared correctly. A pal had a trials chair on a 68VS and it was a lot of fun in the dirt. The BSA forks are not too keen on a lot of sideways abuse but they would be fine for normal driving. Some kind of brace between the fork legs would help.

As I recall the upper front mount was put through the welded plates that strengthen the headstock area. Once you drill the correct size hole you will need a large tight spacer between the plates to prevent drawing them together as you tighten the mount.

Gordo


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Okay folks, the pictures and the set up starts. Let me say again that I've NEVER owned, ridden in or driven a sidecar rig so this is all new to me. I'm hoping with a LOT of help this will go well and maybe somebody else can use this information in the future. PLEASE at ANYTIME anybody out there that knows better, catches me making a mistake...with anything, PLEASE let me know ASAP and I'll correct it.

There's a lot of sidecar terms we'll be using but for now we'll just be dealing with "Chair","Frame","Subframe", "Wheel Lead" and "Struts"

Here are some shots I took this morning to get us started. I've removed the "chair" (the part you sit in) from the sidecar's "frame" (the black tubular bit you see beside the bike) and I have leveled it so I can cut some pcs to set under the frame so it'll stay level for the time being.

[Linked Image]

another view of the sidecar frame

[Linked Image]

This is a view of the "struts" on the sidecar frame (the bits that will attach the side car to the bike)and the section of the bike's frame that will except the sidecar. This is were I'll need to construct and connect the "subframe". Best I can tell, instead of attaching the struts directly to the bikes frame, you construct a subframe, attach it to the bikes frame, then attach the sidecar to that.

[Linked Image]


For now I'll work on the adjustable bits of the struts, cleaning and oiling and then I'll set them up close to where they need to go. (after figuring where the "wheel lead" needs to be set). Then I'll take a couple more pictures.

I already see something that's a puzzle..(see first photo)..when I level the sidecar's frame, (right/left, front/rear) the sidecar's wheel is almost 1/2" out of plumb from vertical. I'd like to hear some opinions as to which one is the most important? I'm guessing wheel?

I know this is going to be a long thread...I'll go back and edit out anything that I post that doesn't help...like updated pictures that explain things better.


I have pulled the engine back out so I'd be able to deal with the bikes frame easier. I got an empty engine I'll slip in there for mock up (kickstarter clearance, head pipe, exhaust, etc)


Oh...sorry for the messy shop...this ain't no Casa Carter laughing


More to follow.. smile..Gordon Gray in NC, USA







Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/02/10 5:32 pm.

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Gordo...thanks and yes....it looks like the forward upper portion of the subframe will attach to the point on the bike's frame, just like you said and the atachment point will take a spacer. :bigt

Take care....your friend in NC, another Gordo


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I,m not a s/car man but its usual for the s/c wheel to lean out .Information on U Tube, setting out sidecar.

Last edited by norton bob; 03/02/10 5:53 pm.
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Congratulations, Gordon!

Hey, I recognize that frame! When you get to that point, I have a sidecar rear sprocket for a B44 if you want to go that way. I haven't counted the teeth, but it's huge, and would obviate changing gear clusters or anything like that.

Subframe? Subframe? We don't need no steenking subframe! (On a '77 XS650, that is....) If I move the chair to an R80 I picked up, I'll be picking everyone's brains about subframes. Oh, and when you are cobbling up the connecting bits, don't forget the lean-out and toe-in.

Wow! Sonny wasn't lyin' when he said he wore out that tire, was he!!

So. Welcome to the wonderful world of three wheels, Gordon. I bet you love it!


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bob...I gota feeling that this is going to be like a lot of other things vintage/British. There's going to be more than one train of thought.


Folks, keep in mind (I'm going back and editing my first post on this thread for a better intro) this is a 1979 Velorex sidecar going on (for now) a 1967 B44 Victor Roadster.


Every sidecar will have it's own type struts/frame/car and such but the set up "should" still be close to the same????


Here's a Velorex diagram we'll be using for the set up. Sorry for the quality.

[Linked Image]

Take note of the sidecar wheel......isn't it plumb vertically?? The bike is "leaned out".

Then there is "toe in" where the sidecar's wheel is turned a little in towards the front of the bike.

Toe in and lean out we'll deal with after the subframe.

This diagram also shows what I called "wheel lead" and it calls it "wheel offset". I will be setting that up and taking pictures today.

Thanks for taking the time to share....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/02/10 7:05 pm.

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Barb...yea I'd say ole Sonny got the good out of that tire.

[Linked Image]

This car's in great shape and I'm as happy as a clam.

What's your best guess at gearing??? The VR came stock with 18/47 (sweet for the street) and the VS was 17/49. Lucky enough with playing around with BSA trials, I got plenty of smaller countershaft sprockets and larger wheel sprockets. But if I find I need it, thanks for the offer.

OH....and it started snowing it arse off an hour ago....and guess what????.................I DON'T CARE!!!! laughing

Take care.....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/02/10 7:07 pm.

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Gordon: You did not say which way the wheel was leaning but it does look like it is out at the top.

With suspension on the sidecar you need to figure out where the wheel will be with weight on the frame as this movement will change the "level" position. Just putting the body back on will compress the suspension and then with "stuff" in the chair it will compress even more. As well you need to see where the bike suspension will be with a full engine and a rider to weigh it down. Does the wheel track up and down at 90 degrees to the frame or is it on an angle to somehow compensate for load?

Gordo


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This is my beast.

51 golden flash, dusting sidecar.

Good fun.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
Gordon: You did not say which way the wheel was leaning but it does look like it is out at the top....snip.... Does the wheel track up and down at 90 degrees to the frame or is it on an angle to somehow compensate for load?

Gordo


Gordo....Don asked that as well and I will check it out (see the last photo)....but I don't think the wheel is square to the frame but it's the next thing I'm going to take a close look at.

I got the car's frame pretty close to where it needs to be, 12" away from the bike's frame (at the swingarm), 8" of wheel lead (wheel offset). The bikes wheel base is 53" and the track width right now is 44" (distance between center line of bike wheels and sidecar's wheel).

[Linked Image]

That wheel lead (wheel offset) is or can be.....confussing. Terms like, Trail intersection point, rolling radius, differential rise, contact point, resultant steering arc, lineal offset, lateral/longitudinal center of gravity, vertical center of gravity....geeze....what's a man to do????????????????????

I went with 15% of wheel base and it came out to around 8"...for now that's what I'll work with but will adjust if need be.

Here's a side shot of where I "think" the sidecar frame should go. With the struts where they would have to go. The subframe will connect these four points to the frame ( I hope!!)

[Linked Image]

That's enough for one day....it's snowing and I'll have all day tomorrow to play with it.

Here's a shot of the wheel and shock tower....I don't see (yet) any way to shim this and would worry about trying to tweak it. I'll ask around and see if like Gordo asked...it's set up with a little lean out (yes Gordo it leans out at the top)

[Linked Image]

Take care....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

OH!!!!!! pooch...thanks for sharing that picture of your rig....really nice indeed. :bigt





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Looks like the mock up is going well Gordon.

I know the lower rear mount of the sidecar is welded in place but if it could be cut and moved back I think you would have more of a stable base.

Spread out the load a bit... wider would be better.

Sonnys front mount with the welded on offset could be cut back. Straight shots to the frame if possible.

Don in Nipomo

Last edited by D.Bachtel; 03/03/10 2:10 am.

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1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
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Hey Gordon,

Don is right--Sonny didn't have to worry about a kickstarter clearing the lower mount. Moving the rear lower mount back will be more stable and give you the ability to start your rig.....fairly high on the priority list.

My only other suggestion at this point would be to have a new tire on that wheel before you set the sidecar frame up level, as it will change with a new tire. When I put the new sidecar tire on mine it made quite a difference.

It's sure going to be a neat rig. I found a couple of sidecars locally---I might have to pop one on a BSA, just to be in an exclusive club.... :bigt


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Don and Barb...well, I'm still head and butt scratching right now. I don't feel warm and fuzzy about any of it yet.

I'll wait until I get a new tire (won't be here for a month unless I can find another dealer....still looking) before any welding on the subframe happens.

I understand about the rear lower strut....but look at it again (I'll have a photo later with engine, kickstarter, muffler mocked up) I'd have to move it back almost 8" to completely clear the lever and heel....if I do that, look how far away from the bike's frame I'll be. So far, I'm not likeing that. The B44VR still had the 5/8" kicker...and it's lever is shorter than later models. I "think" the strut will work where it is...and will show that in my next photos. I do like the idea of changing the front lower, velorex used a curved strut there...guess to try to get back closer to the bike's frame...I'm still looking at that one.

I've sort of slowed down for now, don't want to get in to big of a hurry and have to back up.

Thanks for all the help, take care, your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/03/10 6:53 pm.

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I think the lean out is to compensate for road camber.

It gets a chore riding leaning to the kerb all the time.

Adjust the lean when fully loaded with camping gear and you on bike.


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It's looking great so far G . A lotta great tips to consider so far. One thing I would mention would be to make sure you have adjustment in either direction when you mock it up to the recomended specs as you will no doubt have to make a few adjustments to suit your particular machine and riding style . Another thing I'm sure you have read about but I didn't notice mentioned would be tire selection . You will wanna go with a squarish profile on all 3 wheels , the combo will wear the rounded profile tires wear prematurely .

keep up the good work.

FWIW-BONZO

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pooch,
yea I'm going to leave it alone and take a look at it once I, replace the tire, set it up and have it and the bike loaded.

Bonzo, I will have all the adjustments I need for toe-in and lean-out....but changing wheel lead will be another story. Got my fingers crossed I guessed right on that one.

I've sorta ground to a hault for now, I need to get some welding done to re-do those lower struts. I'm going to take it to the welders tomorrow...might take a day or so.

Thanks again for the help...your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Now, there's no need to start bashing the BSA unit single for a side car tug. That part is going to happen one way or the other and I'm going to deal with it. I KNOW there are better suited bikes out there...but the unit single is what I'm going to use...period.

No argument here, and it's really no one's business but yours what bike you choose, so go for it!

I have an R27 BMW that I set up for a side car many years ago, and got all kinds of grief over that. Just tell the critics to shut up and go build their own.

The R27 was a bit of a challenge, with gearing options being limited by the shaft drive, but I approached that by building a very light chair. It's actually wood, with an ultra light frame, and I drove it for many years. It's a real treat, and so light that flying the chair is great fun!

Post pictures and have fun!

Jim

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Britbikes were fitted with s/c on the primary side in Brit so you are always going to be up against it with the s/c on the kicker side,serves you right for being awkward cusses driving on the wrong side of the road! Even the Japs know which is right side to drive on, cant forgive them for mixing up the controls though.Do you have a selection of fittings for the frame connections?.

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Hi Gordon,

Ever notice how people come out of the woodwork whenever someone has an interesting project? Kind of neat, huh?

About that lower rear strut; I have to be careful whenever I kick mine, because my footwear clears the strut by about 1/4 of an inch. If it is further to the rear, you'll have a more stable connection "grid" for the chair, and since you are building a sub-frame for it, you can have it anywhere you want.

Just one more thought to muddy the waters..... :bigt


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Hi gordon,

As you are rapidly learning, side cars are one half science and one half voodoo magic. I'm glad I didn't have all these folks chiming in when my step sons and I set the rig up with the little Beemer . . . I'm easily confused.. You'll find that each person will have their own take on how to go about the task, but I'm sure you'll sift through it. An asymetrical vehicle with a single drive wheel far off to one side . . . silliest thing I ever heard of!

As to your choice of bikes for a tug . . . remember that there were 250cc machines running all over Europe and the UK with chairs attached.

Now, on a personal note. Thanks to the photos in this thread, the whole world is now aware of what a cheap skate I am. The last time I checked that tire on the way home from the west coast was on the far side of Texas and there was still some tread pattern showing . . . imagine my surprise when I got home and discovered that there was thread showing all the way around. In this case, ignorance was bliss.

It appears that you are going about it in the proper manner, and I hope you derive as much pleasure from the quintessential camping vehilcle as I did.

Floyd aka Sonny


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Primary drive and clutch take a beating on s/c outfits,it may help to lower the gearing at the engine sprocket which also reduces the torque on these.I used to run a Panther outfit.

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Hi Gordon and All...

I'm also a very newcomer to side car-ing! I have fitted my rig, a fifties Watsonian Avon to my 1949 plunger Star Twin. The settings and measurements you mention Gordon are about right but once you get mobile with it all you'll find you'll be making a few adjustments here and there, it's all about 'Feel' but I'll tell you what! It's brilliant fun and a most unusual and weird contraption to ride, totally different from solo riding. Keep at it mate as it is well worth the work that it takes. The picture below... Not finished as I still have work to do on it, noticeably the mudguard. :bigt

[Linked Image]


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1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- In Bits!
1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green
1949 BSA A7 500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-Black
1953 BSA B33 500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Blue
1961 BSA A10 650cc Golden Flash-Red
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Really NICE rig LJ, thanks for posting that picture.

Jim....I hear ya :bigt

Norton bob...you're talking engine sprocket.. confused...not a bad idea. I have the smaller C15 sprockets w/seals here in the shop. Used them on my trials unit single....not a bad idea at all....I'll keep that in mind.

I've sort of ground to a halt. Finally got around to figuring out what I was going to do with the struts and have decided to use Velorex's "sliding clamp assembly" for the lower rear strut instead of having something welded up. With the sliding clamp...you can put it anywhere you want....I like that. I've also decided to move my wheel offset ahead by 2"....to 10" of wheel lead/offset. That way I my struts fit the bike better. I really don't want to move the upper struts on the sidecar frame...they seem to be in the right place to me just like they are. So.....I'm waiting for some parts to come in from Velorex USA and I'm STILL searching for a new tire. Anybody happen to have a new 3.50/16 square profile tire they want to get rid of??? (100/90-16 or MM90-16)

Pictures to follow, I'll be back to working on the subframe this weekend.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to share...it helps us all.

Take care....your friend in NC, USA....Gordon Gray


Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/05/10 11:02 pm.

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I haven't given up on this project....but I'm still waiting on a couple of attachmnet bits from Velorex. confused I'm finding out that the Brit bike dealers I use have spoiled me...I'll not forget that in the future.

Take care....almost hacked in NC, USA....Gordon Gray


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As to your choice of bikes for a tug . . . remember that there were 250cc machines running all over Europe and the UK with chairs attached.

Aged 3 I emigrated from Ireland to the UK in a sidecar attached to a James Captain, also on board 2 adults and an older sibling.

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by kommando
As to your choice of bikes for a tug . . . remember that there were 250cc machines running all over Europe and the UK with chairs attached.

Aged 3 I emigrated from Ireland to the UK in a sidecar attached to a James Captain, also on board 2 adults and an older sibling.

[Linked Image]


What a neat little bike... :bigt hauling a family of 4. That's just so un American
but I LOVE it. smile


I don't have a problem going 45-50mph all day long...I can plan for it and enjoy every mile. Don't get me wrong, I like to twist the throttle too, but there's a time and a place for everything. I have a feeling the B44 (or B50) will do okay and hopefully before to long I'll be able to form my own opinion.



But for now....I'm still waiting for parts.....Gordon Gray in NC, USA





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I haven’t been posting to this thread because I’ve been waiting for parts and pretty much can’t do much without them. Well I’m still waiting but decided to move forward on the sub frame construction and just hope I’m not shooting myself in the foot.

Here’s a photo of where I am on the sub frame, just starting the fabrication.

[Linked Image]



Because of a conflict with the kick starter (and muffler)I’ll not be able to have all four struts (the attachmnet points) of the sidecar on one sub frame. So I ended up with two separate sub frames. The upper rear strut will attach to the flat bar you see in the picture. Both the lower struts (front and rear) will attach to the piece you see below the engine….and that sub frame (when I’m finished) will also catch the upper front strut. (on a peice of square tubing running up the front downtube)

Why a sub frame??? If your like me, you’d never heard of one. I thought you used a type of frame clamp that you attached to the bike’s frame. I had looked at several side car companies on line and that’s pretty much what I was seeing offered. There is an adjustable frame clamp you can use but what happens is that you’re using your bikes frame as attachment points and you’re putting all the stress (and I’m being told there’s lots of it) on just four points of your frame. With a sub frame you’re trying to distribute those forces over a larger area.

An example, look at the flat bar I’m using for the upper rear strut. It’s attached to the upper shock mount and the swing arm. (bolt through the swing arm spindle)…so the forces the sidecar puts on that strut are divided between those two points…..instead of the bikes frame tube only, (if I was using the adjustable clamp).

I don’t know….maybe in this case ignorance might have been bliss. If I hadn’t been told to use a sub frame (thanks D.Bachtel :bigt ) I would have already had this rig hooked up. But talking to people I know and trust…tell me this is the way to go. I do wish somebody else had already done this and could just send me some pictures and some shop drawings….and I wouldn’t be doing all this head and butt scratching.

More later….Gordon Gray in NC, USA


Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/25/10 12:51 pm.

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For a look at other sub frames:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427825


This is borrowed off the http://www.advrider.com/ if you look at the "Hacks" section under "Sidecars-lets see em" you'll find some pictures taken by Kev..and I do believe there's some pictures of one of Shaun Kent's rig.

Take care....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/25/10 12:48 pm.

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Hi Gordon - I think you're on the right track! Each outfit is different and has its own "particulars," you just have to learn them. My BSA B60/Squire rig has 1" of toe-in, 1" higher in the front than in the rear, 10" of lead, and 1/2" of lean. I also use a small steering damper up front. My lower rear strut clamps to the center of the frame on the short cross-piece directly behind the motor, and has worked for 20 years. My upper rear strut attaches to a special bolt a machinist buddy of mine made up that replaces the upper right shock bolt. I have room for my 14EEE boot to use the T160 folding kickstarter. After you finish your build and get over the initial shock of driving your rig, you can fine-tune the handling. When I started my project I had never ridden in nor driven a hack, and initially thought I'd created a "monster." That left after about 30 miles, but is a whole new learning curve. Don't get discouraged, you'll love it once you get the hang of it. Since 2003 I've used a subframe bolted to the bike in 5 places on both sides to attach my Velorex 700S to my KTM Duke combination, but that's a whole other story. Sidecar outfits aren't for everyone, but you'll draw a crowd everywhere and really enjoy it when camping. Good Luck!


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Thanks for the encouragement Bob and for taking the time to share.

Camping is the main focus for my rig so I'm looking forward to this on a lot of levels.

I figure there's been a lot of unit singles fitted with a sidecar but finding info and pictures of them is proving to be difficult. That's the reason I started this thread in hopes it might help someone else through the process.

Your rig is VERY, VERY nice and with the miles you've put on it.....well, that speaks for itself.

[Linked Image]

Hope you don't mind me posting a picture of it?

I'm looking at the steering damper....the VW units aren't very pricey and I would think...worst case...it couldn't hurt.

I'm attaching the lower sub frame (which will catch 3 of the side car struts) to everything I can....including both the forward and bottom engine mounts, the center stands lugs, the gusset on the down tube just below the steering head. Once it's in place...I think I can also get something (a brace) back to the rear engine mount.

I've just started the fabrication of the lower sub frame...it will be boxed in with a piece of square tubing on the other side of the bike.

I'm moving slowly.....I'm still learning and don't want to do a lot of backing up.

Take care and thanks again for taking the time to share....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray



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Nice hack Bob, looks real tidy, how about a picture from the rear?
KTM Duke with a 700s? Woof woof. Love to know more about that!

Don in Nipomo


1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
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I don't know how to post pictures of my rigs on this forum. Maybe Gordon could do it for me if he still has them. I'm 72 this summer and couldn't ride the KTM like it was intended, so I built my outfit with the professional help of long-time rigger Bob Wark (the Warkshop) of Marietta, OH. Brought it to Daytona in 2004, and every year since. My wife likes to ride in the chairs, and both average 45 mpg. The KTM/Velorex rig presented some interesting engineering challenges, but with over 10,000 miles on it, I think it has proven itself, and with the black and adrenelin orange paint, it still always draws a crowd. Sorry for the non-BSA reply.


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I know how to post pictures, well sort of, even got a photobucket account, but I'm just too lazy or slow.
Maybe both. Megapixels throw me off..

Gordon's pretty good at it, and as a stay at home dad with nothing better to do than wrestle a sidecar together perhaps he would post a another photo or two for all.

I've seen a few of Bobs rigs, nice stuff.
Black and orange adrenalin paint... Really? At your age?
I think others would like to see more info on the "B60" for sure!

Don in Nipomo (home of jockos)


1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
1972 Husqvarna 450 WR
1986 Yamaha TT 225
1987 BMW K75C
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Originally Posted by D.Bachtel
....snip....Gordon's pretty good at it, and as a stay at home dad with nothing better to do than wrestle a sidecar together perhaps he would post a another photo or two for all......snip....I think others would like to see more info on the "B60" for sure!
Don in Nipomo (home of jockos)


Gee Don....you sure know how to make a feller feel USELESS smile

Bob sent me three pictures total of his B60 and I posted all three of them on my "Motorcycle Camping" thread. The one I posted here shows the B60 the best, the other two have the bike pretty far away.

I for one would LOVE to see more pictures of Bob's B60....I'll post the pictures, no problem. From what I can see his B60 is stunning, home market tank, alloy wheels...I'd love to see more and if we can talk Bob into sending me some....I'll post em for sure. THE MORE THE BETTER.

I started this thread in hopes it might help somebody else hook up a side car to a BSA unit single...ANYBODY that has ANY info/picture/stories they want to share you're more than welcome to do so. :bigt

Take care fellows....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/26/10 12:22 pm.

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Okay a little more progress. I keep dragging my feet in hopes somebody will chime in amd save me from myself...."Gordon! stop!!! here's how I did it...."

Somebody.....please.... confused

Oh well....I'll keep plodding alone and keep my fingers crossed somebody will speak up before I kill myself. laughing

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The lower section is almost ready to clip and shape the tabs and tack weld everything together. I'm still head scratching on the piece that's running up the down tube. It's for the upper front mount (this side car has four attachmnet points).
I have an plan...I'm just not there yet.

Somebody asked (via email) about the materials I'm using. All the square tubing is 11 guage ( 1", 1 1/4" and 1 1/2") and the clips are 1/4" plate. I figure it's at least as strong as the bike's frame. The two rod eyes/ends you see laying on the lower subframe are for the upper struts and are 12mm (thanks to Velorex). I have 14mm rod eyes/ends on order for the lower attachment points. I'm going to have to lengthen two of my struts...more on that later.

No where near hacked in NC, USA Gordon Gray




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Honestly, I'd probably miter the 1X1 tubing, and trim the tabs back a bit for symmetry.
I like the inside outside tab grab on the bottom rail,nice split,guess your starting to understand that "boxing" approach.

Looks great, be sure to establish a level height with the chairs new tire and prelaod the bikes rear Shocks when you set it up square.
Toe in lean out later, if ever.

Xlnt work, you have now provided me with a working prototype for the 66VE frame. Thanks!

Don in Nipomo


1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
1972 Husqvarna 450 WR
1986 Yamaha TT 225
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Originally Posted by D.Bachtel
Honestly, I'd probably miter the 1X1 tubing, and trim the tabs back a bit for symmetry....snip....Don in Nipomo


Good points Don....I thought about both of them but if you saw the way I have to cut the tubing...you might change your mind laughing

The tabs I had lying around....4"x4"x1/4" column shims. I'm trying to cut (pun intended) down on having to cut stuff. The center stand tabs are the same width 4"x2"x1/4" (I just cut one plate in half) I figured it wouldn't hurt to catch as much of the tubing as I could.

I'm still not 100% sure which way I'll install the rod ends, jury's still out on those. If I put them in horizontal (through the 1" tubing) I want to put a solid spacer inside the tubing where the rod end passes through the tubing. One of the reasons I left it a butt joint so I could get back in the tube. I already had black plastic plugs (on the shelf) that go in the ends of the tubing.

If I install the rod ends vertical they'll go on plates on the inside of the sub frame...sort of like the Velorex's upper struts do on the car frame. Bad part about that is....I'm losing ground clearance. I had to drop the tubing to clear the foot peg lug and to get a bolt through the centerstand lugs. In doing so I lost almost an 1" of ground clearance. One of the reasons I'm thinking I don't want to mount the rod ends vertical is that I'll lose more.

Look, ya gota keep in mind that smile I'm the fellow who bolted two cheapo coolers onto his bike the last time I went camping. I've never been much on looks... smile It's the cracker in me and I can't run from it. I told you right from the start, you're the artist (and a DAMN GOOD one) I'm just a cobbler.

Thanks for the help.....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/27/10 3:04 am.

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I think you need clevis ends with long studs that go all the way thru the subframe lowers and sleeves of pipe welded inside the rails distributing the stress to both sides of the structure.

Clevis ends vertical?
Perpendicular to the vertical plane of the bike or horizontal makes sense to me.


Last edited by D.Bachtel; 03/27/10 4:39 am.

1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
1972 Husqvarna 450 WR
1986 Yamaha TT 225
1987 BMW K75C
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Originally Posted by D.Bachtel
I think you need clevis ends with long studs that go all the way thru the subframe lowers and sleeves of pipe welded inside the rails distributing the stress to both sides of the structure.

Clevis ends vertical?
Perpendicular to the vertical plane of the bike or horizontal makes sense to me.




I'm thinking you don't want me to ever finish this thing!!! laughing....I had to jump through my arse to find the ones I have so I'll have to start looking for something that'll work like your describing.

I'll have a nut/washer and threaded end sticking out of the other side of the subframe??....will I need to be able to adjust these or can I just use the struts adjustments??? I'd hate to try deal with to many threads sticking out the other side.. confused

Okay.....what good is it to have a mentor....and not listen to him???? Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........................

[Linked Image]

Fixed!!!

You might have to let me slide on the tabs though...I already shaped them....and really don't want to have to do them over. crazy


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Well, I had a good day and got a few things done around the house. Also got a chance to drag out the welder so I could tack the lower sub frame together and get it bolted back to the bike.

[Linked Image]

I had to completely re-think my upper front mount. It worked out pretty good using cardboard but didn't do so well when it came time to mock it up in metal. So here's what I finally came up with.

[Linked Image]

I'm not finished with it....I still have to fab the metal where it attaches to the gussets at the steering head. I should get a chance tomorrow to finish it up and will post a photo ( if I finish ) tomorrow night.

I've got the rod eyes (rod ends) on order and should have them by the middle of next week.....drill a hole here and there...weld the whole thing up...a little paint....and Bob's your uncle...I'll be finished with it. :bigt

Take care.....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/28/10 3:44 am.

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Gordon...que es el B60?

I searched three ways and no goodness, could you link to your pictures of it?

Please?

Thanks, very interesting..in the SR500 world, the Euros have put sidecars on them and are very interesting the way they build them..not stock, but a very Euro version of Custom....horns, hides, stock, flash, trash and all in between.

I may have a link to some SR campout pictures...I'll look....ahhh, no way, far to many bookmarks :>

Thanks , Ken

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[quote=Bodger]Gordon...que es el B60?

I searched three ways and no goodness, could you link to your pictures of it?

Please?


Let's see if this works???...................

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=287738&page=3

You'll have to scroll down to find them. I have only three pictures of that fine bike. Maybe when and if Bob finds time he'll take some more.

Cheers.....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/28/10 8:49 pm.

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Okay...I've not run out of metal...but I have run out of places to put it....finally.

First off though....this is what my mentor calls "paper dolls"

[Linked Image]

They're fire starters now.

Here's the final version of the sub frame. All I have left ot do is weld it all up, install the rod ends, paint it and it'll be ready for the side car frame.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I'm getting excited all over again because now I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The sub frame is something I had never heard of...so it had me puzzled and thinking I might be in over my head.

I can't wait to weigh it... laughing I'll probably have to paint it John Deere green.

I should have the rest of the bits come in this week and hope I will have the car's frame attached to the bike by the weekend. clap

Take care....Gordon Gray in NC, USA


Last edited by Gordon Gray; 03/28/10 9:18 pm.

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Ah, thanks Gordon, I'd totally missed that thread, very nice, thanks.
I assume the B60 is a modified B50, a very spiffy outfit.

Sidecar? How come we haven't seen any BritTrikes yet?

It's only a matter of time, heck, you're halfway there, keep up the good work.

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Saw a Triumph Rocket 3 Trike at Daytona this year. That ought to "Get 'er Done!"


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I presume the exhaust pipe clears.

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Originally Posted by LarryLebel
I presume the exhaust pipe clears.


Larry, that's a fair question. smile When I look back over the thread I realize I hadn't posted any photos showing the muffler mocked up. I also only mention the muffler breifly concerning the sub frame having to be it two pieces.

So the answer to your queestion is yes....there's a muffler/head pipe that will fit.

Let me explain since I haven't mentioned it yet....here's the story. (and I'm sticking to it)

One of the things I REALLY wanted to do with this rig was to KEEP the SS down pipe and muffler, it's one of the things I love about the bike. So when planning the sub frame/car attachment I kept that as one of my top priorities. At first it seemed do-able (and it probably is for somebdoy) but when it came time to fab up the metal for the front strut, my first plan didn't work out so I had to come up with a plan "B"....in doing so I had to bite the bullet and I will be using the high pipe set up instead of the low. frown

It won't be too bad a swap....gota weld a tab on the upper rear strut's sub frame to attach the later VS muffler to.

There's still a slim chance I can fit the low pipe (I need about 1/4")...and I haven't completly given up but will look at it again when the engine is back in. Worst case it, I have the high pipe set up if all else fails.

No progress (well, I did get it all welded up) yet, my Mc Master-Carr order was messed up and I had to re-order. Bits should be here by Monday and I can start on it again

Take care......Gordon Gray in NC, USA


Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/02/10 12:41 am.

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Ya know Gordon, with the sidecar mounted up the pipe and muffler will be hard to see anyway. I like the Roadster or Shooting Star low exhaust as much as you do. Perhaps you could have a primary side pipe fabbed up. Maybe modify a unit twin pipe to fit or have one made from stainless...


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1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
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OK. The SS exhaust did not look like it would fit to me the way you have it. I didn't want to be the fly in the ointment at this late stage.

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Yea Don, you and I talked about it before. I wanted the down pipe but when I moved the 1 1/2" tube to the car side and away from the middle...I had to take the head pipe off the bike to just to fab it up...I knew it wasn't going back like it was and just decided to live with it.

You have to pick your battles and I figured that one wouldn't be to hard to live with.

I've welded the sub frame up and installed back on the bike....just to be sure everything's still in the same place before I drill and install the lower rod ends (when and if they get here). frown

Since it was brought up....I put the stock Roadster's head pipe and muffler back on just for shits and giggles...and it's close...but still probably won't fit up without some more work. I'm pretty much convinced....I can live with the high pipe.

[Linked Image]

All these are unit single pipes...the one on the far right is a custom B50 pipe by ED V....so something like that is an option. I figure I'll get the car frame mounted...reinstall the engine and then figure out what pipe/muffler will work the best. But as you can see...I have a way out no matter what.

It's pretty much the least of my worries.

It was over 80 degrees here today...I'm going to have to mow grass tomorrow. grin

Take care....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/02/10 2:56 am.

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Originally Posted by LarryLebel
OK. The SS exhaust did not look like it would fit to me the way you have it. I didn't want to be the fly in the ointment at this late stage.


Well Larry I liked the idea that somebody was actually paying attention :bigt.

I really love the low pipe and muffler....and it still might happen but I've pretty much talked myself into dealing with it later...I want to RIDE/DRIVE this thing.

Take care and thanks for taking the time to ask....I've never minded somebody looking over my shoulder. If I get something right they see it...and sometimes they can save me a LOT of grief.

Your friend in NC, Gordon Gray

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Crikey, you have quite the collection of unit singles bits...including pipes and mufflers. Where does that 6 sided thing go, I have all the parts books,but can't find it.

I saw mufflers at /www.classicbikeshop.co.uk that look ok..have you experience with that store and those mufflers?

...........

Back a while ago I said I'd seen some European campouts from the SR500 forum, I found one, and it's a video I posted in the 'Motorcycle Camping' thread.
camping video: http://rei97.de/film/soelk2009.wmv

There are some sidecar rigs there, no real closeups, but there was a picture collection from the same site that had lots..still looking.

Project looks good!

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Bodger...man oh man I love that video. :bigt I could almost smell the wood smoke and feel the rain. It made me want this rig ready NOW. I'm going to have to go back to work soon (one way or the other) and won't have all this free time on my hands. So the sooner the better.

I've never shopped at Classic Bike Shop so have no opinion on them.

The 6 sided thing??? It's a Suspended Triumph Decorating Devise or a STDD....you fill it with sunflower seeds or some other seed/grain then hang it over your neighbor's Triumph (heaven knows you wouldn't own one!) and let the flying critters feed...and decorate....simple...heh? laughing

Take care...Gordon Gray in NC, USA

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Originally Posted by LarryLebel
OK. The SS exhaust did not look like it would fit to me the way you have it. I didn't want to be the fly in the ointment at this late stage.


Well...I'm waiting on parts for the sidecar frame attachmnet, and the dew to dry off the grass so I can mow so I thought I'd mess around with this muffler/head pipe deal a little.

Here's the stock set up...and you can see how far off it is. I could have down sized the 1 1/2" tube to 1 1/4" and "maybe" it would have worked.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Here's the high pipe's head pipe...with plenty of room to spare.

[Linked Image]


Here's a homemade pipe off the floor joist storage that might work.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

OH....or have ED V make one up that followed the same angle of the sub frame's 1 1/2" tubing???

It'll all work out one way or the other...it's part of the fun....Take care...Gordon Gray in NC, USA

PS...I can tell you this, that some day my mentor D.Bacthel is going to fab up a sub frame to a BSA unit single frame...it's going to be a lot nicer than the one I've made (he's an artist when it comes to this stuff) and once he's got it finished we'll post photo's of it to this thread. Again, in hopes one day to help somebody else through this process. The way he plans on doing the forward upper strut shouldn't interfere with any stock BSA unit single head pipe/muffler set up.





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Well....sometimes I just hate myself. mad I can be dumber than a box of rocks and this time around I've really out done myself.... to quote one of my favorite entertainers (Pink)

"Don't let me get me"

I'd rather not explain it, but there's not going to be any car frame attachment this weekend...I'll have to wait until Monday when I can make a quick trip to the machine shop. frown

Oh well....at least the weather's nice and I have PLENTY of yard work to do.

Pissed in NC,USA.... Gordon Gray

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/03/10 5:40 am.

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Fess up! What happened?

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Originally Posted by LarryLebel
Fess up! What happened?


Awwww Larry, I'm just suffering through a spell of IdontknowwhatthehellImdoingitis.

I thought I had it figured out.

The car's struts come with clevis's at the end of the four struts. I got 4-12mm solid rod end eyes from Sonny (aka Floyd) when I picked up the sidecar. I promply misplaced one. I had it out measuring it and musta laid it down somewhere...I can't find it. So....I try my best to find some more through the Internet. Solid rod ends/eyes, you would think that would be easy....well for me it wasn't. Finding the right eye with the correct width and hole size (for the bolt that holds the eye and clevis together)was a chore, in fact I never really found what I was looking for and finally figured I could get one a little bigger and cut it down. Oh yea, this is where I really turn into ME. I get the eyes today...rework one just fine, took my time and made sure it fit up right...but I'm still not feeling warm and fuzzy about it because of the way I'm having to remove the metal...a 4 1/2" angle grinder. Yea..."don't let me get me". Well with the first one out of the way I start on the second (I only had to do two!).....this time I'm in a hurry, it's getting late and there are dogs to feed...so instead of taking my time I rush it and bugger it all up. I'm really not telling the whole story because I'm to embarrassed...the rod ends I was trying to use weren't the right ones to use to begin with..I should have never tried to "adjust" them. Live and learn....but sometimes I'm not sure I'll live long enough. I sorta feel like I messed up the second one because I KNEW they weren't right to begin with.

Now....I have the right way to do this...sitting right here in the shop. But I'll need to go to the machine shop Monday because I don't have the 14mm tap and die to do what I need to....to get it right. Monday afternoon...all will be well and I will be over myself...until the next time.

Thanks for the shoulder to cry on....I'm a cobbler, I'll admit it...I'm guilty.

Later....w/pictures (not of the mess I made today) Gordon


Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/03/10 5:36 am.

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Clevis ends, male and female, 14mm with a 12mm bolt.
Not rod eyes or spherical or heim joints...thas different hardware.
Gotta get them from Velorex(Mark) and we know how that worked out for ya last time.


1956 Zundapp KS601EL
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1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
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Okay let's try to clear this up a bit.

Keep in mind that all side car attachments aren't the same, what I have is what I got with my car, a 1979 Velorex 562E.
Also keep in mind this problem I'm having is with just the two lower struts...mainly because I misplaced one of the bits that came with it and I was trying to transfer the load to both sides of the sub frame.

Here we go:

First this is the lower rear strut. What you see on the end (right side) is what D.Bachtel is calling the male end of the clevis...it goes on the bike's frame or sub frame. It attaches to the female end which is screwed into the sidecar's strut, the strut is attached to the sidecar's frame. This is where some of the confussion starts. I call both of these "rod ends". One (the female) a "clevis" rod end and the other (male) a "solid" rod end.

[Linked Image]

Here's both of the lower attachment points. The clevis you see on the right goes with a curved bar that is still attached to the sidecar's frame. The male end...with the eye and threaded end closest to the sub frame is what I misplaced. Here's where the problem started. I'm missing one of the male ends. (I'll find it 6 months from now). Also, at the same time it was mentioned that I needed to help transfer the load across the sub frame by running the male end all the way to the other side of the sub frame. (please keep in mind I've never done this before and I'm pretty much clueless)

[Linked Image]

So I scratched my head and butt for awhile and looked at a BUNCH of suppliers and couldn't find the correct size male end to fit into the female clevis end, have the same size bolt hole and be long enough to reach the other side of the sub frame. I had ordered some bits from Velorex, but had trouble getting stuff from them and was pretty sure they didn't have a 6" long male end anyway. So here's what I tried, a female threaded rod end and threaded rod (would have had nuts on the inside of the sub frame too) to make sure I was transfering the load across to the other side of the sub frame.

[Linked Image]

What was wrong about that rod end is it wasn't the correct thickness and I had to grind it down...AND it was a "ball joint rod end" not a "solid rod end". I figured if I had to grind down just the portion of the "ball" so the end would except the female "clevis rod end" once I put a bolt through it it would be okay. ( I had to take off 2mm of material from each side of the ball which made it the same thickness as the rod end's body) Looking back...it probably would have worked, but it wasn't right and I buggered up the second one anyway.


So....here is what I'm working on now.

[Linked Image]

This is actually a male (solid) rod end for the side car's frame that I finally got from Velorex. If I were to use them and still worry about trying to transfer the load to the other side of the sub frame, I would have to come up with something to connect it to the other side. I think that since it's so close to the end of the subframe (on both ends) the force would transfer anyway????????

I'm open for suggestions.... smile

Okay...that took WAY to long to try to explain.....sorry.

Whatcha think???....do I need to attach the male (solid) rod end to the opposite side of the subframe or not????

Take care...and PLEASE BE SAFE out there....we need all of you around for a LONG time....Gordon Gray in NC, USA











Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/11/10 4:03 am.

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Does not the end member of the subframe already transfer the load to the other side?

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Originally Posted by LarryLebel
Does not the end member of the subframe already transfer the load to the other side?


Larry, I'm not an engineer but I think it would because of how close the rod end would be to the end of the sub frame. (It's positioned in the photos correctly)

BUT if that rod end was long enough, it sure wouldn't hurt if it went all the way to the other side (like the photo where I had the threaded rod in place).

BUT....it's not long enough and I couldn't find anything "off the shelf" that was. So I came up with the threaded rod idea.

To attach it all the way across now...I'd have to drill and tap a solid piece that I could weld in place. It couldn't hurt...BUT I don't have any metric taps and dies that size...oh and since there are several different metric 14mm threads, I'm not 100% sure what size it is anyway. Hence the trip to the machine shop.

Or...does somebody have another idea????? confused

I think the load would transfer anyway....but DO like the idea of it connecting to the other side.

I'm in Commercial Construction and over engineering is an everyday thing we deal with.

Take care....Gordon Gray in NC, USA

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Well, it took awhile but I finally have the lower side car struts attached to the sub frame.

I had these made up by a friend of mine.

[Linked Image]

The part that has the eye and threads, Velorex calls an "eye bolt"...D Bachtel calls them "male clevis ends" and I call them "a shouldered solid rod end" laughing. At this point...I don't care what we call them because they're history.

[Linked Image]

Here's the side car attached (temporarily). I have to weld those pieces in place (for the "eye bolts") and have the front upper strut lengthened....and I'm ready to go. UH....well I'm still waiting on a tire. Seems they are coming over from the old country...some fellow has a pile of them tied together and he's swimming and pulling them along with him. confused

I'm going to spend next week bolting the bike back together...hope I get some work before I have to sell it. But if it has to go...I'll put another one together.

Take care....Gordon Gray in NC, USA


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Well, I FINALLY got the sub frame finished, struts lenghtened and the car's frame is attached to the bike via the subframe.

[Linked Image]


I would have never in a million years thought it would have taken this long...to do something that seemed so simple.

[Linked Image]

Now I have to take it back apart and do a little grinding and paint the darn thing. THEN I can put it back on and give it a try.

[Linked Image]

I've not tried to level it up..it's close in this picture but will still need tweaking once it's together. We'll go through that together...the set up.

I have to finish the engine up....I had it together then got to thinking about a couple of things I'd just said "aw, that's good enough" to and now I have it back apart....shouldn't take long to have it back in the bike. Funny thing is....I've had this bike for YEARS....and have never had a chance to ride it...not once...never. Others have, but not me so I'm really looking forward to it.

Now if I can just talk Mr Healy into taking a look at the busted cases....it might be "whole" again some day. Yea, I know...I've heard it before, "It's only a Victor"....but some of us love em....no accounting for some people's taste...heh?

Take care....Gordon (aka GooberG) Gray in NC, USA

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/22/10 12:24 am.

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Possible solution to keep the std low level downpipe, the B25 and the C15 have lower exhust ports, fitting one of these to a B44 will raise the whole pipe by the difference in head heights. The front engine mounting bracket will be also raised by the same amount which will need sorting but you should get more clearance at the bottom.

The C15 pipe bottom run is straight unlike the B25/B44 which has a kink in it to allow a closer run to the frame, this may be a further advantage.

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Kommando, thanks...I hadn't thought about that. But I do have a couple of low level 250 pipes and can give it a try.

If I had it to do over I think I would move the upper strut's support back to the middle like I had it before. The main reason I moved it is....I'm using the gussets (for lack of a better term) at the steering head that already have a hole in them (horn,reflectors) to attach the top part of the sub frame.

The problem is.....with the larger VR/SS tank those holes come very close to the front of the tank. I didn't like the idea of having a plate on both sides...with a bolt head and nut that close to the inside of the tank. A VS tank doesn't even come close and would clear easily. So with this in the back of my mind it sort of pushed (I did it to myself) me away from having the upper portion of the sub frame in the middle of the bike (running with the bike's downtube) and sandwiched between two new plates at the steering head gussets.

Like I said...If I had to do it over again I would come up with a way for it all to work that way but for now I'm going to live with what I have...and if it's going to be used on a VS instead of a VR/SS it would work okay like it is.

Thanks for taking the time to help....take care...Gordon Gray in NC, USA


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Hi Gordon:

Just thought I'd let you know that I've been following along and am very impressed at all that you've done. I hope you're going to be pleased with the final outcome, and I should caution you that side cars can be addictive. Please return to your regularly scheduled program now!

Best Regards,

Floyd aka Sonny


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Originally Posted by flgoff
Hi Gordon: Just thought I'd let you know that I've been following along ....snip....Floyd aka Sonny



You know Floyd, I brought the car home and flew into starting to set it up...figured I'd be riding it in a week...two tops. Well it didn't work out that way and to tell you the truth I'm glad it didn't. I've learned SO MUCH through this process...and that's priceless.


I'm close....very close to giving it a try. I'll be posting pictures of the set up process....and hopefully photos of it on the road.


Thank you for the help.....I couldn't have done it without ya.



Your friend in NC, USA Gordon GRay


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laugh

Dude!

The only help I gave you was loading it into the back of your pickup and waving goodbye as you turned out of my driveway, but even that was definitely my pleasure! Best of luck as the project nears fruition.

Your friend

Floyd aka Sonny


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Originally Posted by flgoff
laugh

Dude!....snip....and waving goodbye as you turned out of my driveway, but even that was definitely my pleasure!....snip Floyd aka Sonny



It seems more and more these days, my leaving brings out the smiles???????????????? laughing


"I'm a hazard to myself
don't let me get me
I'm my own worst enemy
it's bad when you annoy yourself" pink


Cheers....Gordon Gray in NC, USA


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Just a quick update...I have the sidecar tug ready (1967 B44VR) but I have the Three State Mountain Ride coming up in a week and I'm going to use that week at the campground to shake it down. THEN after the weekend...I'll either be working on the VR or attaching the sidecar to it. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I figure those group rides out of the campground...will not be a good place to learn how to drive a sidecar rig...I'll save that for safer time....for everybody.

Set up soon to follow......(hopefully)...subframe's painted and ready to go. Tire has been replaced on the car.

Take care....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

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About 35 years ago I built a sidecar frame that worked out very well....I can't remember a lot of the details but I do remember that I attached the frame to the bike at the bottom using heim type ball ends with male threads on the shank for adjustment and about midways at the single top attachment I used a turnbuckle to adjust the lean..I later built what was essentially a turnbuckle with a reversible DC motor drive...That way I could trim the sidecar lean angle to make it track straight at any speed...Wish I had some pictures and memory from that time period is a little fuzzy ...You are doing very well on the sidehack project...I built a tube frame and fabric covered mine except for the plywood floor...I'm working on a deal now for a B50SS and had thoughts about another sidecar..
East Texas Ed

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Hey Ed, Sorry I missed your post back when you posted it. I've been working out of town and pretty much away from the computer.

Man oh man.....adjust lean on the go??? Now that is to cool...I would have REALLY liked to see that in person.

I'm still plugging along on my project....work and life have got in the way but I'm slowly getting back to where I can do some work on the sidecar rig.....so I'll post updates soon.

Thanks for taking the time to share.....good luck with the B50SS and let us have a peek if and when you get a chance.

Take care....Gordon Gray in NC, USA


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For those of you that have been following this project...and figured I had dropped of the face of the Earth...I'm still here and the project is just about to start moving forward (pun intended) again.

I was waiting until I got the Three State Mountain Ride behind me before I set up the rig....BUT I got called back to work and have been pulling 12 hour days...two weeks at a time since I went back...all away from home. So by the time I get to come home I'm busy catching up on grass mowing and stuff and there little time for motorcycles. BUT...there was another small setback. If you remembered, the bike I'm using as a tug hadn't been running for a couple of years ( down with a busted main case)....but was back together and running for the Three State...ran fine...needed a little tweaking in the tuning department but I was pleased with the way it was running.....BUT...the liner (Hursh) in the tank started to break down and the tank was suffering from the newer gas we have to deal with. So I've been working on that problem and with the help from my friend Don Roe I think I'm almost ready to have the bike running again. I'll probably get a chance to actually attach the car to the bike next weekend....stay tuned for pictures and an update.

Take care.....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray

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Hey Gordon... stop screwing around with that "space age" thermoglastic stuff and spend some of that money you're packing away on an Evan Wilcox sculptured alloy tank...

Get it together soon or you won't be sliding around corners until the snow flies..
not that there would be anything wrong with that! laugh

Take care, keep working!


Your buddy...

Don in Nipomo


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Originally Posted by D.Bachtel
Hey Gordon... stop screwing around with that "space age" thermoglastic stuff and spend some of that money you're packing away on an Evan Wilcox sculptured alloy tank...snip....


Man that would be sweet....I hate lined/fiberglass but just can't seem to to put my hands on a steel one just yet. BTW....I had to sell 6 (six) alloy tanks while I was laid off. It's gona take me a long time to replace those.

I'm working on it.....and will report soon. GG


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Want a loner tank for the meantime? They ship pretty cheap...
Email me if interested.

Don in Nipomo


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1964 Triumph T20SM
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1966 BSA VE
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Originally Posted by D.Bachtel
Want a loner tank for the meantime? They ship pretty cheap...Email me if interested.Don in Nipomo


No buddy I think I can live with the relined fiberglass for now. Alex was telling me that the WDB40 uses a steel tank...and is maybe the same as the earlier twins??? I owe him a B25 engine and when I get around to taking it to him I'll be able to see what he's talking about.
Hmmmm???? come to think of it....I'll be at his house (or nrxt door?) this coming weekend and there's a chance I'll be able to see it then. I do like the looks of that set up....not as much as the stock tank but I REALLY don't like the glass tanks.

Tanks for the offer....I'll get by for now with what I have waiting for me as soon as I go get it.

GG


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Goob, I think the WDB40 tank was the same as the '70 B25 and the Fleetstar...

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Originally Posted by Steve Erickson
Goob, I think the WDB40 tank was the same as the '70 B25 and the Fleetstar...


OP...you're probably right.

[Linked Image]

I'm thinking I might have misunderstood him and what he was sayiong was that he had a early model twin tank (pre unit) that they fit on Jim's B40...and it fit.

But for now....I gota go...I'm headed back to Sylva, NC so I can get up at 5am and get to work on time.

Rich and Barb.....I owe ya BOTH a return mail....and if I have service tomorrow...I'll get back to ya.

Take care.....your friend in NC, USA Gordon Gray aka Goob


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I've seen the preunit twin tank on a Victor before, one with the small round badges.
It did look good....


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Gordon, I was out at Brushy Mtn. this weekend so hadn't seen your post. Yes, the tank I have is a small A10 tank and smaller than the WDB40 tank (which is VERY similar to the larger A10 tank). I guess that's why the tank fit Jim's WD very well while his stock tank was getting painted. You're certainly welcome to that tank (though I have to get it here from Florida...I figured out this weekend that I had given it to my friend Scott who was going to use it as a guinea pig for his plating operation), but those WD B40 tanks aren't exactly rare....I might be able to come up with one of those. I'll be in touch.


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'37 Rudge Special
sixtyseventy Lightboltrocket road racer...and many more.
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Hey hey hey.....and you thought you'd heard the last of the unit single side car thread...heh????? It has been on hold for several months....but has always been on my mind and I'm moving slowly...but still moving.

If you've been following my latest adventures you know I have my 1967 B44VR with me in Sylva, NC and have been enjoying the roads around that area. I had orginally set the VR up as my side car tug....but after thinking it over I want to keep the VR as it is so that means I need to build another unit single for the tug.

I got a frame from Alex (of Ton-up racing fame)...a 1968 B44SS frame. I needed a SS/VR frame because my subframe (see the thread above) attaches to the centerstand lugs on the frame and are an important part of the puzzle.

I have all the bits to put tthe tug together but I'm still up in the air as to which front end to use. I want BSA..not OIF BSA but the stock set up for the pre OIF. I don't have a 1968 front wheel (8" full width SLS)....or the later TLS. But I'm thinking this is the way I would like to go????(TLS) My BSA unit single guru is away for the holidays so I thought I'd ask the unit single experts on here for their opinion.

For a side car set up on a BSA unit single (64-70) which front end/front wheel set up would be best???

There are several to choose from...QD or caps, 7" offset, 8" offset, 8" full width SLS, 8" full width TLS...I want to stay away from the early full hub (Enduro Star) type.

Also....I'm clueless about the different front ends...would any capped lower work with the late model TLS???

Thanks in advance.....I'm going to get to try this thing out one way or the other...just need a little more time and help.

Take care.....Gordon Gray in NC, USA (aka GooberG)

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That sidecar is adding a lot of weight so 8" TLS is the way to go IMHO. The capped ends will work as long as the bracket engages the notch on the brake plate, this may restrict you to 69/70 capped fork ends as they have the longest reaching brackets. So you will havee a choice of rod 2 way damping or shuttle valve, the yokes set the distance apart which must match the 2 grooves on the axle but you can add new grooves if required.

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Originally Posted by kommando
That sidecar is adding a lot of weight so 8" TLS is the way to go IMHO. The capped ends will work as long as the bracket engages the notch on the brake plate, this may restrict you to 69/70 capped fork ends as they have the longest reaching brackets. So you will havee a choice of rod 2 way damping or shuttle valve, the yokes set the distance apart which must match the 2 grooves on the axle but you can add new grooves if required.


Thanks kommando...I was thinking the TLS was the way to go...of course that's one brake plate/wheel/front end I don't have so I'll have to see if I can find one (anybody???).

I got around to pulling out my spare front ends to see just what I had....geeze I knew a "little" about the difference in these...but now I'm sorta clueless to what bike some of these go to. I guess I need a wheel(TLS)first to see if they will work with the capped forks I have. I seem to have at least two types...so far all I see that's different is an extra tab for a fender brace????

The fun never ends..... laughing

Thanks again for taking the time to reply....have a safe and happy holiday....Gordon in NC....who's looking for a complete 18" TLS front wheel for a 1969-70 BSA B44SS.

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The notch on the capped fork will engage both the 7" and 8" brakeplates if it is long enough. A late Triumph 500 may give you an 18" wheel with a 8" TLS, never seen one but I have seen ref to them, if not the 19" rim comes with the 8" and the 18" rim comes with the 7" brake.

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and did we never see the finished combination?

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Gordon,
What's with the name change or am I the hundredth guy to ask? I have a TLS on my 68 B44SS that is dressed out like a VS cause of leaking tank issues. I think it came off a 70. I don't remember any issues fitting it up. A pic worth anything to you?

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gordon, this explains a whole bunch


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Why could you not use the downtube to attach the upper sidecar strut, instead of the long piece of box tube ? Just trying to understand the logic behind it.


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I’m by no means an expert. This was my first and only sidecar attachment.

I did lots of reading and had wonderful advice from folks like Don, RIP Craig ( aka Bonzo) and RIP Barb. All of them had BTDT.

The simple answer to your question is…. I could have used the down tube as an attachment because I have some of the universal Velorex mounts. But I didn’t want to for a couple of reasons.

Back when I first started the project I was asking for photos of other unit singles with chairs so I could copy their attachment. None showed up. I believe it was Don who sent a photo of a unit single rig but it didn’t show how it was attached. It just didn’t look right. Kinda of a weird stance. Don (?) said he was pretty sure the bikes’s frame was bent. That rig used universal mounts. Along the same time RIP Craig (aka Bonzo) told be he used the same attachments on his A65 but because of the rough roads he traveled (Detroit) they would loosen AND he was pretty sure he had actually tweaked his engine cases because of the sidecar. All along I had been following a fellows build on ADV Rider ( still a great source of sidecar info) and he was completing his subframe……he actually had all 4 attachment points on his sub frame.

So it was an informed decision to NOT directly attach the sidecar to frame. Since I needed the lowers……the uppers were simple. 4000 miles later ( down for an engine rebuild….long story) I can say that there is absolutely no damage to the frame at all.

You are 100% correct that you can ( and people do) use the universal mounts for all 4 points……but I didn’t want to use any of them or any of my frame tubes and I’m happy with the results.

As far as set up…….you and I are miles apart there.


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
I’m by no means an expert. This was my first and only sidecar attachment.

I did lots of reading and had wonderful advice from folks like Don, RIP Craig ( aka Bonzo) and RIP Barb. All of them had BTDT.

The simple answer to your question is…. I could have used the down tube as an attachment because I have some of the universal Velorex mounts. But I didn’t want to for a couple of reasons.

Back when I first started the project I was asking for photos of other unit singles with chairs so I could copy their attachment. None showed up. I believe it was Don who sent a photo of a unit single rig but it didn’t show how it was attached. It just didn’t look right. Kinda of a weird stance. Don (?) said he was pretty sure the bikes’s frame was bent. That rig used universal mounts. Along the same time RIP Craig (aka Bonzo) told be he used the same attachments on his A65 but because of the rough roads he traveled (Detroit) they would loosen AND he was pretty sure he had actually tweaked his engine cases because of the sidecar. All along I had been following a fellows build on ADV Rider ( still a great source of sidecar info) and he was completing his subframe……he actually had all 4 attachment points on his sub frame.

So it was an informed decision to NOT directly attach the sidecar to frame. Since I needed the lowers……the uppers were simple. 4000 miles later ( down for an engine rebuild….long story) I can say that there is absolutely no damage to the frame at all.

You are 100% correct that you can ( and people do) use the universal mounts for all 4 points……but I didn’t want to use any of them or any of my frame tubes and I’m happy with the results.

it looks as if everything is attached to the frame underneath the engine, and that's what puzzled me. I could not understand why anyone would put all the stress in one area. Now I know. smile

Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
As far as set up…….you and I are miles apart there.
?


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My main subframe is attached to the center stand lugs, lower engine mount ( both sides of the frame) upper engine mount and at the stiffing plate at the headstock. The rear upper subframe is attached to the upper shock mount and a grade 8 bolt through the swing arm spindle. So that’s a total of 6 hard connections spread across the frame

How in the world can you see that as “….all the stress in one area”?

Set up…..I was replying to what you wrote about set up in your thread. I got and took my set up advice from one of the premiere side car people here in the states. When I asked him for advise……..he ended sending me a huge package of information and instructions. That combined with the Velorex set up information is what I followed.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
How in the world can you see that as “….all the stress in one area”?

I was going on what I noticed with a quick butchers at the pictures. Having said that after having looked again I am still of the opinion that the majority of the stress is around the same area given that the upper front mounting lug is effectively connected to the lower part of the frame. It looks a bit like making a mountain out of a molehill to me, but if it works then fine, more power to you. smile

Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Set up…..I was replying to what you wrote about set up in your thread. I got and took my set up advice from one of the premiere side car people here in the states. When I asked him for advise……..he ended sending me a huge package of information and instructions. That combined with the Velorex set up information is what I followed.

Gotcha, thread confusion.

" a huge package of information and instructions " for an easy and simple job ?


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Originally Posted by Pureblood
Gotcha, thread confusion.
" a huge package of information and instructions " for an easy and simple job ?

Honestly the set up was the easiest part of the whole project.

Figuring out where the chair needed to be in relationship to the bike was an important step since I was creating the solid mounting points. There are some adjustments in the struts but stuff like keeping the lower struts level and square took some thought. THEN when I upgraded my swingarm and the wheel size changed…..I needed different attachment points for the two lower struts. In the end I went back with the stock Velorex arm and wheel. Never cared for the trailer tire look.

PS…..the Velorex 562 has a brake.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Originally Posted by Pureblood
Gotcha, thread confusion.
" a huge package of information and instructions " for an easy and simple job ?

Honestly the set up was the easiest part of the whole project.

Figuring out where the chair needed to be in relationship to the bike was an important step since I was creating the solid mounting points. There are some adjustments in the struts but stuff like keeping the lower struts level and square took some thought. THEN when I upgraded my swingarm and the wheel size changed…..I needed different attachment points for the two lower struts. In the end I went back with the stock Velorex arm and wheel. Never cared for the trailer tire look.

PS…..the Velorex 562 has a brake.


Adjusting (set up) is a piece of cake, all I need is a flat road and an adjustable spanner.

I did not know the Velorex sidecars have brakes, that's excellent.


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My Velorex had a brake also. However, I only used it for low speed stunts or as a parking brake. Using it at speed produced unpredictable results.

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I finally got around to following kommando’s suggestion that I go to a bigger front brake. 1969 B44SS front end. 1968 B44SS wheel which has an 8” hub. Late model 8” TLS from a twin dropped right in. I’m looking forward to giving it a try. It’s got to be better than the stock 67 brake.

Sidecar brake needs to be linked to the bike’s rear brake for controllable stops IMO.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Sidecar brake needs to be linked to the bike’s rear brake for controllable stops IMO.

Is there any other way to use it ?


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has anybody cobbled up a fork brace for the 1960s TLS forks?


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Originally Posted by kevin
has anybody cobbled up a fork brace for the 1960s TLS forks?

Does a VW steering dampener count? laughing

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lol

that part is easy

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

one of these things, except modifiable for a 1969 A65

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

. . . or something that accomplishes th esame thing

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Norman Hyde used to do a fork brace--- but I dont know if they fitted those forks.
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Originally Posted by kevin
lol

that part is easy

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

one of these things, except modifiable for a 1969 A65

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

. . . or something that accomplishes th esame thing

Damn you kevin….now I have dampener envy!!!! laughing

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iirc, that norman hyde brace was for disc brake models, bur something like it would be perfect

gordon, look up el cheapo chinese steering dampers on ebay. i use a cognito moto damper on my LSR, but 20 chinese units might have been a better deal


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kevin…..I went with the VW bit because that’s what other rig owners recommended. My first real trip (500+ miles) I got a wheel wobble leaving a gas stop…….first time it had happened and boy oh boy was that a surprise. 0 to maybe 15 mph and I was struggling to hold on. It smoothed out but I had to find a way to keep that from happening again. Asked around and came up with the VW dampener. Hadn’t had the wobble since ( only experienced it that one time…but that was enough)

BUT…….that unit you pictured looks like a trick….I’m going to lust after something like that….it’s a curse and this time around….your fault

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Originally Posted by kevin
iirc, that norman hyde brace was for disc brake models, bur something like it would be perfect

gordon, look up el cheapo chinese steering dampers on ebay. i use a cognito moto damper on my LSR, but 20 chinese units might have been a better deal


Steering dampers are unnecessary.


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Fist of all can I say that I admire people that go for the uncoventional ie fitting a sidecar to a bike that BSA never really intended to have one.But now that your project seems to be nearing completion you should may be start thinking about the handling of an outfit like yours, reading your first post you say that you are going to use it for your campnig adventures. So I assume that you are going to use the sidecar to carry your camping gear, if that is so then you need to realise that sidecars were designed to carry people and there will be a significant difference in weight between an adult in the sidecar and camping gear. This will have an effect on the handling over there in the USA your sidecar is going to be on the right hand side of the bike so going round right hand corners you will have to be careful that the sidecar wheel does not leave the ground otherwise you will lose complete control of the outfit. I am speaking from experience having in the past had a few scary moments when adjusting from riding solo to a combination. The previous post said that you do not need a steering damper well back in the day when I rode a few combinations one of the first things you did when fitting a sidecar was to tighten the steering damper you needed much stiffer steering than a solo machine to counteract steering wobble.

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photobob…. kevin dug up an old thread of mine. This thread started back in February of 2010.

The rig did around 4000 miles before I took it down for an engine rebuild. ( long story)

Today it’s waiting on an engine from Ed V. It’s engine is on the bench and is too pretty to put back in the bike ( told you it was a long story). I have upgraded the front end and now have a TLS brake up front.

You have never camped with me……we could change that? I carry a LOT of gear and you’d be surprised how much the kitchen sink weights. I didn’t have any problem with ballast. Even when I wasn’t camping I carry enough tools and spares that no extra weight was needed.

My experience is the same as yours when it comes to a steering dampener. I only experienced wheel wobble ( at very low speed) once but adding the dampener was a big plus on how the rig “felt” going down the road. To date no more wobble.

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Yes-- tighten the steering damper down hard.
If you then get a steering shake-- a bit like a tank slapper on a solo then accelerate--that gets rid of it.

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If you have a steering wobble your outfit is not adjusted correctly. The fix is simple. smile


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Originally Posted by Tridentman
Yes-- tighten the steering damper down hard.
If you then get a steering shake-- a bit like a tank slapper on a solo then accelerate--that gets rid of it.

I realize we’re talking about two different things?

Adjustable steering dampener vs a dampening strut?

My B44 didn’t come with a steering dampener. I added a dampening strut to stiffen up the steering……..so maybe they are doing the same job? I’ve never had a bike ( that I remember?) that had an adjustable steering dampener.

The wobble I experienced was on start up and like Tridentman said……increasing speed smoothed it out. I believe if it would have happened at 50-60 mph I might not be here typing.

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dammit, ive been trying to put these pictures up for thirty minutes. slow-fi tonight

im not concerned about setup. you learn as much as you can, put it on, mess with it, learn more.

this indian one is in texas, just a no-frills tub with simple four-point frame mount, no fancy stuff, but looks like it could easily be adapted to a subframe. 20-gauge sheet metal, not fibreglas.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

frame is just a rectangle , swingarm has a vertical pillar to mount the upper end of the shock.

current price is US$2200, including shipping and universal mounts


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my kids race a 250 ninja that has a tendency to wobble. even with a straight chassis, correctly loaded steering head bearings , no odd weights, it will shake its head gently at 40mph and oscillate to a tank slapper if not restrained. a single fingertip on the bars will prevent the wobble.

the little ninjas are famous for this. the only cure for mine is a new front tire, no matter how much rubber is left to go. i get about 1000 to 1500 miles before the wobble reappears. il experiment with dampers eventually, but for the moment i just tell the kids to keep their hands on the bars.

i use dampers on whatever i race as well. sometimes the rules require them. i fell down at 115mph once on my bonneville because of a wobble, so i take them seriously.


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Originally Posted by kevin
dammit, ive been trying to put these pictures up for thirty minutes. slow-fi tonight

im not concerned about setup. you learn as much as you can, put it on, mess with it, learn more.

this indian one is in texas, just a no-frills tub with simple four-point frame mount, no fancy stuff, but looks like it could easily be adapted to a subframe. 20-gauge sheet metal, not fibreglas.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

frame is just a rectangle , swingarm has a vertical pillar to mount the upper end of the shock.

current price is US$2200, including shipping and universal mounts

The price is ok I suppose, but what puts me off about that particular model is that it's a pita to get in and out, and I think the seat cushion is very low so that you are virtually lying down, if you know what I mean.

Inder make a knock off of the old German design. With that you can step in and out with ease, and ( I think ) you can sit down properly. The price should be comparable with the one you are considering.

Heres a video showing the sidecar I was talking about. He needs to start all over again with fixing it to his bike. I would not take that out on the road. smile


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How about this one ?

I think it's a better sidecar than the Indian one, and it has a $1300 buy it now price. Not 100% sure but I think the seller is in the US.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/155169856823?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3Dba453ee70c854fb2b8d6c7de5c5a0d15%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D155169856823%26itm%3D155169856823%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2351460&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042

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Pureblood wrote “Heres a video showing the sidecar I was talking about. He needs to start all over again with fixing it to his bike. I would not take that out on the road. smile



Photographic proof……..it’s not as easy as one might think. wink or at least as some might think

My guess is that thing will go down the road……but his mounts are an absolute mess IMO. He starts out with his front lower looking okay…then it all goes to hell But…..he thinks it’s good enough to actually document it…..kinda reminds me of a build thread on here recently.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Photographic proof……..it’s not as easy as one might think. wink or at least as some might think

My guess is that thing will go down the road……but his mounts are an absolute mess IMO. He starts out with his front lower looking okay…then it all goes to hell But…..he thinks it’s good enough to actually document it…..kinda reminds me of a build thread on here lately.

The upright connection thing looks familiar.


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Originally Posted by Pureblood
Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Photographic proof……..it’s not as easy as one might think. wink or at least as some might think

My guess is that thing will go down the road……but his mounts are an absolute mess IMO. He starts out with his front lower looking okay…then it all goes to hell But…..he thinks it’s good enough to actually document it…..kinda reminds me of a build thread on here lately.

The upright connection thing looks familiar.

Where he has a universal mount standing upright? Very clever. cool

To quote the builder “Its quite a job”

More like……..” I started off with the front lower strut mount on the opposite side of the bike……by the time I got over to the chair side…..the mushrooms started kicking in” laughing

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so im ignorant. i see 90 degree mounts rather than straight runs. i see pretty thin metal brackets being used to attach struts.

what else should i be seeing here? aside from the fact that his welding is as bad as mine? maybe worse?

nice sidecar body, though. i have read that inder sidecars are a step up in quality from cozy. either seem better built than the no-name one i bave pictured above. js that the case?


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Go back to pureblood’s photo of the bottom side of his Harley rig. (one of his other threads) His two lower struts are parallel to each other and level. IMO this is ideal. You adjust the front strut for toe in/out.(the chair) With them parallel and level adjustments are a snap.

Now you go to the uppers.

The optimum location for the uppers IMO are to be angled away from their connection at the chair’s frame. Angled up and outward. Picture a 45 degree knee brace. With universal mounts your choices of mount locations are limited to free space on the frame…..and that’s not always the ideal location.

You adjust the uppers for lean in/out. ( the bike not the chair) But be sure you recheck the lowers. You might have pulled/pushed them out of level. Following up with what’s been said….if you have to adjust a lot…..one or more of the other struts might need readjusting.

His J strut should be connected to that 1” rod…..there should be no third front mount…….that thing is useless and can’t be adjusted.

The rear mounts??????? Lord hopefully you’re getting the picture.

The more I think about it……..the more I realize it’s really NOT that difficult but you need to understand that the struts need to do a job and be able to be adjusted. If you put them in a cockeyed fashion they might not move the chair/bike the way you need them to……when trying to adjust them.

See…….a man sets just one rig up and he becomes an overnight expert!!!!!

Once you have it in front of you…….and figure out what each strut’s job is……it starts to make sense.

God I should have never started this reply because I probably missed a lot…… but now I’m too stubborn to delete it.

Hopefully some of the REAL side car jockeys ( we know who are) will chime in and correct me if I got it wrong.

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Originally Posted by kevin
so im ignorant. i see 90 degree mounts rather than straight runs. i see pretty thin metal brackets being used to attach struts.

what else should i be seeing here?

nice sidecar, btw. i have read that inder sidecars are a step up in quality from cozy. either seem better built than the one i bave pictured above. js that the case?

What you see is a tutorial on how not to attach a sidecar. I still can't make up my mind if it's meant to be a joke, or if he is serious.


It's the design of the Inder tub that I think is better, but not so much the frame, it looks light and flimsy.

I think the Sputnik is superior to both, and it has a brake !

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the sputnik looks like a velorex clone, and while it may be up to date, the appearance of both really doesnt do anythjing for me.

ive looked at inder and cozy sidecars for years. still looking at whats available. the ural/dnepr chairs come up on craigslist. they look pretty sturdy. dunno about the rear wheel lead on those tho

im open though

https://velorexusa.com/

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Bite the bullet and get a Steib.

Used Ural are probably the best bang for the buck but since I never carry a human in my chair I don’t need that passenger access.

But you did hurt my feelings about the Velorex…….me and a hundred Jawa riders.

laughing clap beerchug laughing

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velorex mounts look better-engineered than any ive seen

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

im beginning to understand the geometry a bit better. the indian stuff all mounts to a single bar parallel to the bike frame, with only the front J-bar there to resist the sidecar folding up and in. velorex has a rigid subframe in ^^^this application, and then struts mounted higher up to triangulate the sidecar attachments.


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Originally Posted by kevin
the sputnik looks like a velorex clone, and while it may be up to date, the appearance of both really doesnt do anythjing for me.

ive looked at inder and cozy sidecars for years. still looking at whats available. the ural/dnepr chairs come up on craigslist. they look pretty sturdy. dunno about the rear wheel lead on those tho

im open though

https://velorexusa.com/


I think it's hard to go wrong with a ural/ dnepr/ CJ chair, they are as solid as can be. I like the look of the Velorex Jawa 560 sidecar, it has style. I think the Sputnik has style too, least that one does compared with the newer ones. You get a lot for your money with that one, it's also practical.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Bite the bullet and get a Steib.

Used Ural are probably the best bang for the buck but since I never carry a human in my chair I don’t need that passenger access.

But you did hurt my feelings about the Velorex…….me and a hundred Jawa riders.

laughing clap beerchug laughing


lol

i laugh at jawas everytime i still see one.

except on a flat track, that is. i havent seen one n the street since i was 16 years old

but the more i look at the velorex, the better i like the design. theyre way expensive new, but im looking at used right now on searchtempest

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Originally Posted by kevin
velorex mounts look better-engineered than any ive seen

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

im beginning to understand the geometry a bit better. the indian stuff all mounts to a single bar parallel to the bike frame, with only the front J-bar there to resist the sidecar folding in. velorex has a rigid subframe in ^^^this application, and then struts mounted higher up to triangulate the sidecar attachments.


I don't know where the mounts on my Harley came from, most came with the bike when I bought it complete with the sidecar. It was a total disaster of an effort, with struts at weird angles and things that doing things that to this day I can not understand.

I stripped everything off and started again from scratch. I ended up with something that looks quite similar to the pics you just posted above. It's easier to start afresh rather than try to make the best of a bad job.

I had to make alterations to the sidecar so as to get everything leveled up with the subframe on the bike.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The subframe on the bike was the least straightforward but worked out fine.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

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ive asked the sputnik guy if his very-affordable sidecar comes with any of th mounting hardware


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Those photos of the mounts……a lot going on there. Absolutely three lower struts and it looks like a tube running up from the frame to the front upper strut????? Never saw that before but makes me feel better about my design.

I got mine in 2010 for $500. Passed on a couple before that for the same price. I’m thinking $1000-1500 now????? But you might do better you just might have to remove some awful painted lady with lions on a leash.

There’s a member on here……lives in Ohio that picked one (560) up at a OVBSAOC rally a few years back. Don’t think he got around to ever mounting it. I asked awhile back if he’d sell……he said no back then. Want me to ask him again?


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The Velorex was designed to be used on 250/350 cc bikes. So they are lightweight. Not something you’d want to mount on a big bike IMO. But one of the nicest rigs I’ve seen was a KZ1000 Police with a 560…just had the look.

If money was not factor…….. I’d love a Steib


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
The Velorex was designed to be used on 250/350 cc bikes. So they are lightweight. Not something you’d want to mount on a big bike IMO. But one of the nicest rigs I’ve seen was a KZ1000 Police with a 560…just had the look.

If money was not factor…….. I’d love a Steib


Lightweight rigs can easily be made as heavy as desired. My lightweight Bingham is not so lightweight now.


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[quote=kevin]velorex mounts look better-engineered than any ive seen

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Other than these mounts are cool as hell and mine are cobbled together.

My rear upper strut is at the same angle as this front strut, but in the opposite direction. The universal clamps wouldn’t let me do that so I made something to connect to that was rearward of the shock mount.

Straight like the one in the photo is fine IMO but if you moved the top of the strut towards the front of the bike……..that’s not good IMO

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Originally Posted by Pureblood
Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
The Velorex was designed to be used on 250/350 cc bikes. So they are lightweight. Not something you’d want to mount on a big bike IMO. But one of the nicest rigs I’ve seen was a KZ1000 Police with a 560…just had the look.

If money was not factor…….. I’d love a Steib


Lightweight rigs can easily be made as heavy as desired. My lightweight Bingham is not so lightweight now.

True but the lightweight frame might not be up to the task. New Velorex frames are stronger than the 70s models. So some stiffening might need to be done too.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
I got mine in 2010 for $500. Passed on a couple before that for the same price. I’m thinking $1000-1500 now????? But you might do better you just might have to remove some awful painted lady with lions on a leash. . . .

There’s a member on here……lives in Ohio that picked one (560) up at a OVBSAOC rally a few years back. Don’t think he got around to ever mounting it. I asked awhile back if he’d sell……he said no back then. Want me to ask him again?

absolutely. the more i look at the velorex the more i consider my aesthetic objections to be bullsh it.

i used to paint cars for a living. you cannot show me a weird paint job that can intimidate me.


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Originally Posted by kevin
the sputnik looks like a velorex clone, and while it may be up to date, the appearance of both really doesnt do anythjing for me.

ive looked at inder and cozy sidecars for years. still looking at whats available. the ural/dnepr chairs come up on craigslist. they look pretty sturdy. dunno about the rear wheel lead on those tho

im open though

https://velorexusa.com/

The wheel lead depends on the position you mount the sidecar, it makes no difference if the sidecar came off a 2 wheel drive outfit or not.


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i see.

i thought the urals/dneprs were set up to require the rear wheels in line.

learning every day here.


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Originally Posted by Pureblood
Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
The Velorex was designed to be used on 250/350 cc bikes. So they are lightweight. Not something you’d want to mount on a big bike IMO. But one of the nicest rigs I’ve seen was a KZ1000 Police with a 560…just had the look.

If money was not factor…….. I’d love a Steib


Lightweight rigs can easily be made as heavy as desired. My lightweight Bingham is not so lightweight now.

True but the lightweight frame might not be up to the task. New Velorex frames are stronger than the 70s models. So some stiffening might need to be done too.


Adding weight with steel sheet can strengthen the frame considerably. That's how I did it anyway.


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Originally Posted by kevin
i see.

i thought the urals/dneprs were set up to require the rear wheels in line.

learning every day here.

Unless I'm missing something, it's only the 2 wheel drive outfits that need to have the sidecar wheel in line with the rear wheel of the bike.


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nah i thought they were all like that


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Those photos of the mounts……a lot going on there. Absolutely three lower struts and it looks like a tube running up from the frame to the front upper strut????? Never saw that before but makes me feel better about my design.

I got mine in 2010 for $500. Passed on a couple before that for the same price. I’m thinking $1000-1500 now????? But you might do better you just might have to remove some awful painted lady with lions on a leash.

There’s a member on here……lives in Ohio that picked one (560) up at a OVBSAOC rally a few years back. Don’t think he got around to ever mounting it. I asked awhile back if he’d sell……he said no back then. Want me to ask him again?

From what I can see it tooks like the subframe is attached to the frame of the bike underneath, in two places, only about eight inches apart. I'm not really sure what the purpose of the upright tube is, I can only assume it's to give further strength to the subframe as its strength is in doubt. I can see that it is clamped to the frame in the normal forward strut mounting position.

It looks to me like whoever put that together made it unnecessarily complex. Maybe he just had a load of expensive sidecar mounts he wanted to get rid of ?

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I kept up with Velorex USA for awhile and purchased a few pieces from them. I don't remember seeing anything like that. But it's been a long time since I visited them (online) so I don't know what's available now.

We're just gona disagree (and that's not a bad thing) about using the down tube as a mounting point.....by itself. I already admitted I knew nothing about sidecars......LOVED them at 16 but never rode/drove a rig until around 2010..........so I don't have a bank of knowledge. I put a LOT of metal in my subframe....but I was trying to spread the stress across it instead of the frame.....and I tend to over do things. (ya think?)

I haven't shown a closeup of my rear upper strut sub frame...........because it's embarrassingly thick. The bike could be broken in two and that sucker will still look like the day I bodged it. It runs from the swing arm spindle to the shock mount.......then a tang to the rear for the mount. I love it but it is embarrassing.

I have a work background that includes cast in place concrete.....I learned the hard way you can never put to much bracing on a form, but you certainly can put too little.


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Originally Posted by kevin
i used to paint cars for a living. you cannot show me a weird paint job that can intimidate me.

That's the BEST laugh I've had in YEARS!!!!!!!! I'm still laughing laughing

You look at some and all you can think is "WHY????????" Knowing all along someone else stepped back and said "DAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMNNNNN"

I'll check with him......but he could have let it go by now......he's gota few wrenches in his family.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
I kept up with Velorex USA for awhile and purchased a few pieces from them. I don't remember seeing anything like that. But it's been a long time since I visited them (online) so I don't know what's available now.

We're just gona disagree (and that's not a bad thing) about using the down tube as a mounting point.....by itself. I already admitted I knew nothing about sidecars......LOVED them at 16 but never rode/drove a rig until around 2010..........so I don't have a bank of knowledge. I put a LOT of metal in my subframe....but I was trying to spread the stress across it instead of the frame.....and I tend to over do things. (ya think?)

I haven't shown a closeup of my rear upper strut sub frame...........because it's embarrassingly thick. The bike could be broken in two and that sucker will still look like the day I bodged it. It runs from the swing arm spindle to the shock mount.......then a tang to the rear for the mount. I love it but it is embarrassing.

I have a work background that includes cast in place concrete.....I learned the hard way you can never put to much bracing on a form, but you certainly can put too little.

In the pics posted by Kevin show the front upper strut is mounted to the frame of the bike. It's not like your design.


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I just bought a Dnepr sidecar from a Latvian bloke who lives in Toronto, that's 1635 miles away, and he is going to deliver it himself last weekend in October


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"In the pics posted by Kevin show the front upper strut is mounted to the frame of the bike. It's not like your design."

Mounted to the frame.......but also connected to the lower section of the chair's frame?........so I'm gona call that not just the down tube by itself.

Mines mounted to the frame (down tube) too. In two places.

[Linked Image]

At the front engine mount

[Linked Image]

And up at the headstock

EDIT: This was a mock up.......there's a loose plate missing (and yes w/longer bolts) that backs up the fixed plate shown.

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 09/22/22 12:17 am.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
"In the pics posted by Kevin show the front upper strut is mounted to the frame of the bike. It's not like your design."

Mounted to the frame.......but also connected to the lower section of the chair's frame?........so I'm gona call that not just the down tube by itself.

Mines mounted to the frame (down tube) too. In two places.

[Linked Image]

At the front engine mount

[Linked Image]

And up at the headstock

Gotcha I did not know that, Now I know it's not a stupid design after all !


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[Linked Image]Thank you.

It got weird when I updated the swingarm ( from Velorex USA) . It used a trailer tire so my lowers had to move. I gave up on that idea and went back to the stock set up.....but with a new shock from Hagon.....haven't looked back and even removed those connection points. (the uppers)

This was my final go at it........first time around I had this cow catcher thing going on......now that was a BAD (or at least ugly) idea.

Don wanted me to do it all in tube but I don't have those skills..( I wish I could have) ...I'm a square

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$1855 delivered. I'm happy.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Originally Posted by Pureblood
$1855 delivered. I'm happy.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

That's nice.........what are you going to mount it on and can we expect a video of it on the road tomorrow? laughing

oops.......wasn't paying attention.....late October delivery?

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There's a Jawa in here somewhere.



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Li