Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleIndustrial tec supplyHepolite PistonsThe Bonneville Shop

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
Ian C
Ian C
South Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 574
Joined: June 2008
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#276534 09/27/09 12:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 290
S
SteveM Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 290
OK, I know you’re wondering what kind of bike burns coal. I thought about posting this in the post on 'poor fuel efficiency' but thought that it deserved it's own post. I know that I’m tilting windmills, but here goes…

Over the last year or so, several of the motorcycle publications that I subscribe to have done articles on 'Zero Emission' motorcycles. The most recent is an entire 'Motorcyclist' issue entitled "Going Green." In this issue James Parker, Aaron Frank and others refer to these electrically powered bikes as “zero emission vehicles.” I would suggest, given that the prominent fuel in the production of electrical power today is coal, that these vehicles are in essence, Coal Fired Vehicles (CFV). Of course, if nuclear power supersedes coal as the typical source of electrical power, they may be closer to the truth, but will still need to consider the disposal costs, operational costs and problems with nuclear power.

In short, today’s electrically powered vehicles are largely COAL POWERED VEHICLES!

Now I understand the trend toward these battery powered machines in an environment of increasingly shrinking petroleum fuels, but think that in general, they have it all wrong. They tend to compare the traditional internal combustion engine (ICE) to the electric engine (IE), relating the efficiency of the ICE in converting fossil fuel to kinetic energy at the rear wheel to the IE’s efficiency of converting energy at the battery to kinetic energy at the rear wheel. In these ‘efficiency computations’ they tend to treat the machines as the source of energy transformation. They tend to forget that the IE burns it’s ‘fuel’ at the power plant and ignore the losses in burning coal at the power plant, the losses in the transmission lines, the losses in the transformation process at the intermediate stations, and the power losses between the home power outlet and the battery due to the inefficiency of the ‘charger’ (another transformer) for the IE. Once they’ve considered these losses and only after they have considered these losses can they compare the IE to the ICE.

Then there’s another consideration. Can you imagine everyone getting off work at 1600 (4:00 PM for the non-military/non-European types) in the afternoon, driving or riding home, then plugging their vehicle into the grid at 1700 (5:00PM)? Most electrical grids in the U.S. today have brownouts when they have hot afternoons or cold mornings. Imagine 5 million electrical vehicles being plugged in within close proximity to each other for charging in Minnesota in February or in Georgia in July. The result today would be a total collapse. Our electrical distribution networks are not prepared to shoulder the energy load previously carried by fossil fuels for transportation. They can barely keep up with non-transportation needs. Now…I know that the electrical generation folks have a plan to use the batteries in these vehicles as a storage medium to round out surge times, but still think that the infrastructure is not there. The infrastructure would have to be dramatically updated to support this. Given the financial health of our nation, and the financial situation with the banks and major companies, are we prepared to make this change? I say we are not.

In essence, the change to electrically powered vehicles merely moves the generation of power from the engine aboard the vehicle to a centrally managed point: the electrical power generation facility. I argue that our infrastructure is ill prepared to make this change and that the ICE is still the most efficient way to provide transportation. Besides, I can’t imagine trading the sound of my Norton Commando or my Triumph Trophy for the whir of an electric motor… but I admit…I’m increasingly a dinosaur (and a bit of a curmudgeon?).



Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,896
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,896
Great treatise Steve. :bigt Completely agree with it!

As far as I know, nothing has come along to replace the ICE that meets the special requirements needed for driving a car or riding a motorcycle in spite of what the greens spout. And this coming from somewhat of a "green" myself on some things e.g. clean coal-fired power plants, chemical plants and petro-chemical plantss (they are technically feasible).

My 2c

Last edited by Britbodger; 09/27/09 2:19 pm.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 12
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 12
Bravo Steve,

A well argued piece. Similar things can be said about biofuels with respect to all the energy consumed during fertiliser production (required to grow the biomass) and the energy required to extract useful fuel from the biomass! These are frequently left out of propaganda calculations.


--------------------------------

Don't nail that lid down - I'm still bloomin' breathing !!
Click here to see SPIDER cartoons!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,896
In Remembrance
Offline
In Remembrance
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,896
Originally Posted by Grandad
Bravo Steve,

A well argued piece. Similar things can be said about biofuels with respect to all the energy consumed during fertiliser production (required to grow the biomass) and the energy required to extract useful fuel from the biomass! These are frequently left out of propaganda calculations.


I absolutely agree with you on that one as well Grandad! :bigt

P.S. Just goes to show that the un-dead sometimes can teach us a thing or too when they emerges from the crypt on occasion. grin

Last edited by Britbodger; 09/27/09 11:32 pm.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,029
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,029
very good point Steve, I have to admit I did not wade thru the diasma of your efficiency post in full, but I appreciate very much where you are coming from.

so how about the idea of creating a better collection system for solar, wind and wave energy? if everyone could be charging their vehicle from the drive home the night before and the drive to work in the morning during the eight hour work day, how much closer to zero might we be? as well as reducing the "heat" absorption resulting from the decimation of the greenery and the substitution of tarmac and cement?!

I realize we have far to go in the realm of solar panels, but...


=================
/1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (in a friend's shed)
/1960 BSA Super Rocket Basket Case (in the attic!)
/1987 BMW K100LT nekkid
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
SteveM -

A couple of comments -

1) You sort of throw off on nuclear power with some vague "operational" problem thingies - the disposal issue has already been solved by the Europeans, who do not have a big hole in a desert to dump waste in so have had to solve the recycling problem, and have.

2) The "everyone plugging in at once" and browning-out the grid problem is not really an issue. Our electrical cooperative already manages the load in my house somewhat - they control my electric water heater (a huge wattage load) by modulating the 60 hz wave with a control signal, and using it to turn off my water heater (and everyone else's) when loads get too high, and turning it back on at night when they NEED the load. I never even notice it.

Electric car chargers would work exactly the same way - the electric company would gradually turn on the chargers at night as the other grid needs dropped, and have them all running wide open starting about 10 or 11 PM until 6 PM the next morning. Presently, the electric company manages this load by turning their hydro-electric turbines into PUMPS, and pumping water BACK into the lake where it came from, because there's nothing else to do with the electricity at night.

Otherwise, I go along with what you say ....

Lannis


It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 327
Likes: 11
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 327
Likes: 11
I keep telling my want to be engineer highschooler, that the problem isn't producing energy so much as making it portable. Lots of ways to make heat, not so many ways to carry it with you.


Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Originally Posted by Zimm
I keep telling my want to be engineer highschooler, that the problem isn't producing energy so much as making it portable. Lots of ways to make heat, not so many ways to carry it with you.



Well, quite. A corollary might be "lots of ways to make heat, not so many ways to hold it till you need it".

That's why wind and solar will never work for supplying the base load. Where coal, nuclear, and hydro run (and have to run) 24/7/365, you only get wind and solar when the sun's out or the wind blows. You can't store up that much energy for when you need it, and will get it often when you DON'T need it.

Where are those backyard fusion plants that all the sci-fi writers have been promising us since the 1950's? laughing

Lannis


It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,281
Likes: 26
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,281
Likes: 26
I agree with Lanis.

1) Some areas, like Duke Power, don't shut you off, they simply charge you a super-premium for power during peak periods... thereby arm twisting users to install their own timers and delays.

2) University trials of pure solar/wind installations are running into the issue of having to install HUGE battery farms to supply backup during cloudy/ windless time periods. No body is asking how much lead that prepresents, or the measures needed to prevent a hydrogen gas exposion on a densely populated college campus. "Green" is looking remarkably like lead grey.

:bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
NE Georgia, USA
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 701
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 701
Originally Posted by RF Whatley
I agree with Lanis.

1) Some areas, like Duke Power, don't shut you off, they simply charge you a super-premium for power during peak periods... thereby arm twisting users to install their own timers and delays.

2) University trials of pure solar/wind installations are running into the issue of having to install HUGE battery farms to supply backup during cloudy/ windless time periods. No body is asking how much lead that prepresents, or the measures needed to prevent a hydrogen gas exposion on a densely populated college campus. "Green" is looking remarkably like lead grey.

:bigt


Professor, PLEASE stop using common sense to muddy up the environmental issue. GREEN is good, even if it is 'lead gray'. It's as clear as black and white! grin


'Never argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience'

'72 TR6
'12 Hinckley Scrambler
'95 FLHTC Road Sofa
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Even if you use wind and solar to power individual houses rather than trying to feed the grid with them (wind and solar is by NO means cost efficient, even figuring the carbon benefit, when batteries and downtime is taken into account), it's costly.

I'm in a perfect place to try a wind-and-solar installation to power my house and shop, and try to keep the $300 monthly electric bill under control. The plan would be to use wind and solar when it was available, and use power from the cooperative when it wasn't. PLUS, our co-op is bound by law to "buy" whatever power I produce that's in excess of my needs, by turning my meter backward whenever my generation exceeds my use at any time.

However, a practical installation that would significantly supplement the grid would cost about $50,000 in initial capital cost, and about $1200 annually in maintenance (long term average including alternator replacement, solar panel replacement, etc) assuming I maintained it myself for the cost of parts. A maintenance contract would be more expensive.

So I'd be essentially paying $50,000 for a $2,400/year benefit, or about a 22 year payback, ASSUMING that wind and solar could supply all my power requirements, which is by no means certain since my wind speed average is about 8 MPH here.

I guess it could be done, but there's not many people that it would make sense for.

Lannis


It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 721
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 721
Good thread, I read in an article that even IF every power station could be converted to nuclear fission, the fuel needed to run them would run out in 10 years instead of 250, as to Fusion ; well the new Research facility that is being built in France that was supposed to be run for the 1st time in 2016 will now be run for the 1st time in 2018, however there are continuing developments in all areas of Fusion technology experimental sites around the world and this delay is probably taking these re-design and manufacture requirements into account. I believe Fusion will be a reality, whether it arrives in my lifetime is another matter. Johnny.


What d'ya mean it won't rev to 10?
1965 BSA A65D Lightning Rocket
1976 K*w*s*ki Z900.
1978 Triumph Bonn3ville (930 T160 Powered T140)
1988 H*nd* RC30
1990 Moto Guzzi California 3
1993 Y*m*h* TDM 850
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Fusion power would be fantastic if we could solve the problems of containing it and keeping the reaction going ....

.... but I'm afraid that all the big technological breakthroughs need a fight-for-your-life war to motivate them.

Computers, controlled fission, jet propulsion .... all invented or developed for World War II. It seems strange that after 60 years of trying, no one has been able to make a controlled fusion reaction work ... I guess it's because we as a people just aren't motivated enough. We've got oil, we've got uranium, .... What, me worry?

Lannis


It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 850
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 850
As soon as there is money to be made from an idea, there will be people at the trough.
As we all know from our advanced physics classes, energy cannot be obtained from nothing. There has to be a source.
It is said that Hydrogen/Carbon sources are about to run out. That seems to be the popular political spin these days.
Yeah? Maybe when the ozone runs out!
This is all political/scientific gas and as worthy of consideration as a fart in a windstorm.
Multi-Million dollar behomoths making pre-excuses to raising their prices for obtaining these commodities.=>"But, but, we need money to find more resources!" My Ass!
And you can be sure, that any temporary solution to the problem will have their fat fingers in it!
Enough of my rant, someone else pick it up...
Tom ;<D
Let us make placards and march in the streets! or ride... grin



Tom D. 1967 T120R Bonneville
Anyone know of a place that sells Loctite
by the quart?
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 721
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 721
Lannis and Tom D, I think you are right about that, the European Union budget is 15 billion euros over at least 10 years, if it was 15 billion euros each year things would be moving much more quickly, in the U.K. when J.E.T. wants to power up its reactor it has to wait for a down turn in grid usage before it can do so, no real political priority there! Mind you the U.K govt. has'nt been scientifically motivated for decades. Johnny


What d'ya mean it won't rev to 10?
1965 BSA A65D Lightning Rocket
1976 K*w*s*ki Z900.
1978 Triumph Bonn3ville (930 T160 Powered T140)
1988 H*nd* RC30
1990 Moto Guzzi California 3
1993 Y*m*h* TDM 850
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
Moto Mojo
Offline
Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
i think that eventually we will find the balance, and the fusion of various energy sources will come to fruition. the costs for installing, say, a household solar system for hot water are extremely high, even if there are government kick backs- you are still looking at the ten year payback plan, and of course by then, things will have advanced considerably (look at where this technology was ten years AGO, by way of example)

meanwhile back at the Bruce Wayne Manor, when your old-school hot water heater craps out, cough up the extra do-re-mi and put in a MUCH more efficient on-demand system and save the grid the strain of constantly heating water for what? 20-30 minutes of daily usage? you folks in the country can put in the jacketed giant wood burners and install in-floor hot water heat systems, or get the new, higher efficiency oil filled radiant heat units...the list for homeowners goes on and on. the europeans are pioneering this low level home based energy-conserving technology BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO.

let's face it, there are LOTS of new-tech alternatives for saving energy, even if the grid is powered by the same old carbon-based fuel sources, there is no reason on this green earth why you wouldn't want to update obsolete heating and cooling systems at home and office.

there are a LOT of problematic issues facing the transportation industry. for every so called *solution* (thus far) there are a host of issues. just like, say for example, organic farming or dairy (once only for complete freaks and now a multi million dollar industry), the reality is that things are happening at the grass roots level. these small timers will eventually tweak it and tweak it until they effectively break through. then, and only then, the giants of the industry will have to face the fact of change -when it does become lucrative enough- they will jump on the bandwagon and we will have "brand new" across the board policy based on the standards set by freak geeks in their garages or barns or labs over the period of, from about 1970 until whenever everyone wakes up.

the public at large can continue to ignore the need for change but remember that folks were talking about so-called *alternative* energy back in the early 70s- remember the Whole Earth Catalog? today, the concept is ALMOST main stream, and in ten more years, it'll be necessity, ESPECIALLY in this country, where we don't tend to conserve AT ALL but rather consume and consume and consume more and more and more each day, week month year.




"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
Moto Mojo
Offline
Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
forget it guys!
this just in (my email in-box):


"About 6 months ago I was watching a news program on oil and one of the Forbes Bros. was the guest. This is out of context, but this is the actual question as asked. The host said to Forbes, "I am going to ask you a direct question and I would like a direct answer, how much oil does the U.S. have in the ground." Forbes did not miss a beat, he said, "more than all the Middle East put together." Please read below.


The U. S. Geological Service issued a report in April ('08) that only scientists and oil men knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated since '95) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of North Dakota ; western South Dakota ; and extreme eastern Montana ... check THIS out:

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska 's Prudhoe Bay , and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable... at $107 a barrel, we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5.3 trillion.

'When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor. They had no idea..' says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

'This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years' reports, The Pittsburgh Post Gazette. It's a formation known as the Williston Basin , but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.' And it stretches from Northern Montana, through North Dakota and into Canada . For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end. Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago. However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves.... and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels. & nbsp;And because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 2041 years straight.

2. And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from TWO YEARS AGO!

U. S. Oil Discovery- Largest Reserve in the World!
Stansberry Report Online - 4/20/2006

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It is more than 2 TRILLION barrels. On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. In three and a half years of high oil prices none has been extracted. With this motherload of oil why are we still fighting over off-shore drilling?

They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth. Here are the official estimates:

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia
- 18-times as much oil as Iraq
- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait
- 22-times as much oil as Iran
- 500-times as much oil as Yemen
- and it's all right here in the Western United States ..

HOW can this BE? HOW can we NOT BE extracting this? Because the environmentalists and others have blocked all efforts to help America become independent of foreign oil! Again, we are letting a small group of people dictate our lives and our economy.....WHY?

James Bartis, lead researcher with the study says we've got more oil in this very compact area than the entire Middle East -more than 2 TRILLION barrels untapped. That's more than all the proven oil reserves of crude oil in the world today, reports The Denver Post.

Don't think 'OPEC' will drop its price - even with this find? Think again! It's all about the competitive marketplace, - it has to. Think OPEC just might be funding the environmentalists?

Got your attention/ire up yet? Hope so! Now, while you're thinking about it ... and hopefully P.O'd, do this:

3. Pass this along. If you don't take a little time to do this, then you should stifle yourself the next time you want to complain about gas prices--- because by doing NOTHING, you've forfeited your right to complain

--------
Now I just wonder what would happen in this country if every one of you sent this to every one in your address book.
By the way...this is all true. Check it out at the link below!!!
GOOGLE it or follow this link. It will blow your mind.
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911"
******************************************************************************************************
***************************************************

SO...with
ALL THAT OIL RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES,
why oh why
would we
could we
DARE we
want for ANYTHING ELSE?



Last edited by ricochetrider; 10/08/09 9:58 pm.

"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 916
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 916
A lot of this recent interest in electric power was generated (Har-har)by the "electric TT" in the IoM in June.
It led to a wave (alright, a ripple) of humour along the lines:

"It's all right for people who have got a drive to park their cars on at night. What about all the residential roads in big cities where everyone has to park in the street, often a long way from their house/flat.
"The real winners in this will be the manufacurers of extention cables........Can you imagine trying to wheel a buggy down the pavement (sidewalk)........?
"And of course the personal injury lawyers........"

Changing the argument back to carbon footprints, I have a particular interest in regenerative braking, which some railways have and as long ago as the 1980s some coaches used regeneration to charge the coach batteries instead of using the alternator

BUT

I was very disappointed to see that SNCF (French Railways) are claiming that their journeys are "zero carbon", presumably on the grounds that their railways are electrically powered and their electricity is largely nuclear.
Just imagine a typical day where the tens of thousands of railway workers turn up for work in their cars.
Or the carbon footprint of the construction and maintenance of the railway and its rolling stock.
I could go on.

Carbon audits are at the mercy of who decides what should be counted in and out, and that in turn depends on the vested interest making (or rubbishing) the audit.

eg. Anti-nuclear lobbies cling blindly to wind, wave and tide schemes oblivious to their inefficiencies and high capital costs per maegawatt (and the carbon needed to make and fix them).

If you are called "Norway" you can laugh at the rest of us with your 98% hydro-electricity. Very green apart from construction and maintenance costs. It does help if you have a huge and very, very wet country with a tiny population, however.

PS. I witnessed the "electric TT" this year and was nonetheless very impressed!


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
V4 Triton Project (still keeping me sane (Ha-Ha!))
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,907
Likes: 135
All good information and insight.

This "massive oil reserve" under the Rockies, I guess I'll have to see more information on that; there's some OPEC price at which it will make sense to start drilling for it.

That'll open another question, too; is all this oil REALLY the result of heat-and-pressure-treated remains of swamp plants and dinosaurs? At some level, even a liberal calculation will show that that's not possible ...

If we DO have all that oil, that'll be the end of all the conservation ideas - everyone will want a 12-MPG Hummer .... !

Lannis


It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
Moto Mojo
Offline
Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
lannis,
i too am interested to see if this oil thing is true.
hard to say, considering the source! no slam on my politically conservative buddy, who sent this email out to me! ha ha...

is it a missed conception or is it not always easy to access underground oil reserve?

either way, with the rising costs of EVERYTHING, why wouldn't a prudent consumer wish to conserve? if for no other reason than to save personal $$$?

while i do think the whole *carbon offset* thing has a large element of BS, i do feel that we can (and should) reduce our own carbon *footprint* with just a small amount of effort. it just seems like good across-the-board policy to use as few of our precious resources as possible. after all, there are (one may assume) many many generations to come, all of whom will need their fair share of whatever is left after WE are done here.

tom


"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 25
R
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 25

Rico sez: "...Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world."

i think your talking about the oil shale? This seems to get revisited every 10 years. And for multi reasons, it just does not happen. Mainly cost IMO.
Sadly, going abroad (cheap oil) has been the cost leader....

I bet you could open up every sq. inch of the USA for 'drill baby drill' efforts, and very little would change.


Lannis: "That'll open another question, too; is all this oil REALLY the result of heat-and-pressure-treated remains of swamp plants and dinosaurs? At some level, even a liberal calculation will show that that's not possible ..."

I guess the same could be said for coal/diamonds/N-gas...

But I think the planet is pretty old, some say not.


Coal. Yep, we gots lots of it, and I think we will be mining for some years to come.....

But what I don't understand is the lack of patience when it comes to energy. I'm all for solar/wind/electric cars, and conservation. We seem to think of the here and now, and thats on good day! Folks see a big windmill, and they want payback now, not in 20 years.

But in the long long long run, my bet on the Coal/Oil vs. Wind/Solar. Wind/solar will take over as primary energy for people.

Its going to take many decades to hammer out the green use issues, but you have to start sometime.






















"Back in the garage with my [***] detector
Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 916
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 916
Basically,
I really don't care how much oil there is in the Rockies or in my back garden. It's still oil. Even if there is a surfeit of and oil producers gave the oil away for free and governments didn't tax it, it's still oil.
There are now not enough trees in the world to convert back the CO2 output and we are now relying on plankton. If we screw that one up (which I guess we will unless attitudes change faster and the majority individuals are prepared to take painful choices), we're in the poo! I for one look forward to my nuclear-energy charged electric bike, to walking a lot more and saving my carbon ration for an occaisional outing on my Brit Iron. I prefer trains and boats to planes and I guess we'll have to slow the pace of life again.

Next relevant subject is Population Control and the role played by religion, wars, medicine, famine and pestilence in this. Who wants to take up that thread?


mike
Member #: 147
1960 T120 Bonneville
1999 H*%^a VFR 800 FI
V4 Triton Project (still keeping me sane (Ha-Ha!))
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,877
Likes: 5
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,877
Likes: 5
There's a good article covering the 'Electric TT' and the bikes racing on the IOM in the Nov. issue of Cycle World magazine available here in the US.

Gee, I guess we could clothes pin playing cards to the frame rails to rub on the spokes for a 'rrrrr' sound. heh


Dave - NV
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
Moto Mojo
Offline
Moto Mojo
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 11,485
Likes: 117
Quote
Next relevant subject is Population Control and the role played by religion, wars, medicine, famine and pestilence in this. Who wants to take up that thread?


build it and they will come...
alas, the moderators MIGHT show for THAT party, too?




"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."


Moderated by  bill50cal 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5