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#715699 - 11/19/17 12:34 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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...hello Btour, I have been checking this thread but after all these comments about electrics I was a bit confused (mainly because I use magnetos in my bikes; so no coils, batteries et all) but just now I read a summary by Gavin and understand more the situation; however; in my opinion you would start all from scratch.
As all here we know if you have spark, compression and gasoline out of carburetors an (timed) engine should start; if not could be the valves. If that s right, could be an intermittent condenser; if you have one. If not those items; is something mechanical, with the primary, kickstarter etc.
There s nothing more.
So if you have electrical problems in your system; like no spark; is not a problem like the thread title is saying and in that case disconnect all the cables and connect new wiring to your EI and the other parts included the ignition switch.
Again, there s nothing more to fire up if the engine have all those parts working.
Why all these nonsense with the battery etc?

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#715710 - 11/19/17 1:25 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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reverb, what do you mean by nonsense? Not sure.
Try the first page and then the summary of electrical tests. Gavin thought it was electrics. So this is where I am at.
Bike has EI, no condensers. No points.

Two questions:

1) Why did I get resistance when I completed from y/w to ground which was disconnected from the battery. Was it through the recitifier?

2) Second question is why the right cylinder is so inconsistent with its compression testing?

So, you can imagine if Igor had a problem when the bike was on the center stand, then me being only 150 lbs and much weaker would have a problem.

Either of the above normal? Igor is a stone mason, about 180 lbs, and he had trouble kicking it, but mentioned sometimes felt like nothing at all. I watched the needle as he kicked. lol.

I don't know what this extra effort means. Could be clutch dragging. But I have to clear the clutch each time before kick. It grabs again.

First I want to settle the electrical doubt. So, first question above needs to be answered.

But both issues need to be solved before I venture far from home.

Last edited by btour; 11/19/17 1:27 am.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715728 - 11/19/17 4:04 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Bob,
As far as I can tell you have not done the simple test of running a wire from battery negative to the white wire (power feed) on the Boyer box and then tried to kick start the bike. This should you take you no more than 15 minutes. This goes around any problems with switches, wire connections and any other harness gremlins. If the bike starts easily then you know there is a problem in the switches or harness somewhere. Then you can get your meter out and start chasing down where the voltage drop is. But you have wasted at least 3 weeks since I first suggested it. If you are still having the starting problems with the "hot wire" in place then you can quit fooling around with the electrical system and start looking at the valves or carbs or something else. My bet is when you put this "hot wire" on the thing will start in 2 kicks. Are you willing to prove me wrong.
Htown smile

Last edited by htown; 11/19/17 4:07 am.

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#715729 - 11/19/17 4:22 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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patience, htown. Hold your horses. I can't ride anymore this season anyway, unless there is weird weather. I might as well reacquaint myself with the circuits. It took so long because I have other things to do, and I stubbornly tried to fish out the too short white/yellow wire from under the coil box. All this is good because I am thinking of a better way to run these wires.

I am following Gavin's advice. I have gotten a lot of good information from him

I have already done all the tests and posted the results. I just need to know the answer to the first question in order to to be done with the electrics. What should have been the results when resistance from the w/y was tested to the disconnected positive ground wire, given that the rectifier was in place? Should I gotten 9.5 or infinity? Is it normal or does it indicate a bad ground? Does it mean something..w/y w of b/b is going to ground, if so why didn't I blow a fuse? Any light turned on, including the blinker reduced the resistance.

Remember this is a learning experience for me.

If I hot wired it and it started once twice three times would that mean it was the electrics? And if it did, then I would have to go hunting. I have already gone hunting, and a Jolly good fox she is.

Doesn't anyone know the answer? 9.6 or infinity? And if 9.6 why would it decrease when key was turned to lights, and then jumble when key was turned back to just ign...sometimes?

Last edited by btour; 11/19/17 4:32 am.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715743 - 11/19/17 11:22 am Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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"Now it gets weird. I was tired by then, but put the probe on the ground wire that goes to the battery +ve. I got 9.5 but when I shook it around, the reading started jumping all around. I thought I had found something. Turned the key off and tried again, at rest I got the 9.5 again, this time shaking the wire did not do anything. I tried my SPG, I got the same. Engine the same. I turned the switch to lights and the reading went to 2 something. Turning the key backwards to just ign, and the readings started jumping again. I retested the key switch again and again across pins 1 and 2 b/b white. The speed at which I turned it on seemed to matter. The faster the better, and when I turned back from lights on I got the same jumping readings. So sometimes the keyswitch tests fine and sometimes not. Lights on is less resistance, even if it the brake light, or the blinker. Turning keyswitch backwards from lights produces problems."

Disconnect the blue brown to the rectifier then repeat this test, this will prove if the rectifier is leaking to ground or not.
If you still show low numbers , anything other than infinity, then somewhere in the ignition chain there is an insulation fault

Do this test then report back. possibly the ignition switch is leaking to earth, disconnect the blue brown and the white at the Ignition switch, join these together temporarily, repeat the test, if the numbers are still low , then its not that.

Low resistance to earth could be from a worn insulating sleeve part exposing a conductor, dirt build up around terminals bridging insulation, or most likely internal short in the ignition switch. If the rectifier disco and ignition switch by pass dont fix it then the rest of the chain falls under suspicion, the mulri connector for the white wires under the front of the frame spine would be the next place to look.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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#715776 - 11/19/17 4:09 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler


Disconnect the blue brown to the rectifier then repeat this test, this will prove if the rectifier is leaking to ground or not.
If you still show low numbers , anything other than infinity, then somewhere in the ignition chain there is an insulation fault

Do this test then report back. possibly the ignition switch is leaking to earth, disconnect the blue brown and the white at the Ignition switch, join these together temporarily, repeat the test, if the numbers are still low , then its not that.

Low resistance to earth could be from a worn insulating sleeve part exposing a conductor, dirt build up around terminals bridging insulation, or most likely internal short in the ignition switch. If the rectifier disco and ignition switch by pass dont fix it then the rest of the chain falls under suspicion, the mulri connector for the white wires under the front of the frame spine would be the next place to look.



Top of the morning to you, Gavin,

Thank you. There is very good ground to the frame. The key switch is mounted to the frame. So I suspect the key switch. Especially since, even the blinkers which are well grounded reduced the resistance, and lights on did the same. And counterclockwise rotation of the key switch produced jumping numbers. So, I will try there first.

What about inside the headlight? Remember I was in there in the dark to replace headlight, and that was about the time problem started, and somehow I even lost the ground for the high beam indicator. In other words high beam indicator was working before that incident but not after, when I looked, its wire to ground was just dangling in air. No idea what happened to its connection. It must have had it own ground wire, and somehow that got lost. Went back to the scene of the crime. I might have put in my pocket. Searched all those and my bags. No idea what happened to it.

So the w/y runs through the headlight, and there may be in an insulation failure in it there? Those are the only wires that are not wrapped on the bike.

There are practical aspects to the work flow.
1) I am working in a dark, and cramped garage. Come spring I will continue the project, of organizing that space which was interrupted by adversity. I just shoved everything haphazard when the Halloween snow storm hit. Everything was outside waiting.
2) I am working by flashlight.
3) It is late fall, and I just wanted to do something quickly for now.
4) The white/yellow wire was never extended when the EI was put in, so that means it is dangling, barely visible above the coil box. Now I could hang it by its head, but it is going to dance around on the noose if I hot wire and start the bike. I have been trying to decide whether to extend it or not. If I can even hold it by pliers well enough to shove a male spade into it properly.
5) I barely have room to kneel next to the bike. So disassembly is tedious, and can wait, until I get into my dinning room, which is another project.
6) Already bits have blown into EI connector, and I had a devil of a time teasing them out. The bike is right up against the garage door, with 1/2" to spare from the tail light. I can't even get to the other side of the bike if the door is closed. Door open and debris blows in.

Get the picture? Sure I might have fixed this a lot faster by disassembly, but then other problems might have occurred because of this workplace mess. I can't even wheel it outside, to work on it in this late fall weather. Maybe I should have set up the tent in the driveway. smile


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715786 - 11/19/17 5:03 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Any input on the compression numbers, especially the inconsistency of the right cylinder?

At these numbers should it be so hard to kick over, that even Igor had difficulty. It is more like kicking a BSA 441.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715792 - 11/19/17 5:19 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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"So the w/y runs through the headlight, and there may be in an insulation failure in it there? Those are the only wires that are not wrapped on the bike."
Maybe , maybe not, on my 71 the grey sleeve with the cores ( including the White yellow) runs along the bar then down to the multi connectors under the frame spine front. doesnt go to the headlamp, there isnt a lot of room in a flatback lamp, by all means poke about in there and look for shorts.

can you not get your bike in the hoose.? Mine comes in , minus gas tank to keep the missus happy.

The compression numbers arent great, the RHS seems particularly not great, ( the sudden jump from low to high is very suspicious) .but they are over 100 so not too bad, 120 when cold isnt far off the mark.
It shouldnt be that hard to kick over with these numbers , is it still hard to kick with the plugs out? If so something is wrong, it should be loosey goosey, maybe a tight primary chain, bad bearing or worse. How long since bore / piston/ head work,? Does it burn oil? or use an unreasonable amount?

Your earth fault wont have helped anything, good find, if the ignition switch doesnt fix it, try splitting the RHS lever clamp ( 4 posidrive screws) and disconnect the front brake cable so the switch housing is off the bar and dangling, see if that clears it. if that doesnt help its mostl likely to be in the rats nest part of the wiring where the two grey lines from the bars say hello to stuff under the front frame spine. Dont be upset by the rats nest term, its just what it is in that area , I rewired my bike and this bit is still a rats nest.Albeit a slightly smaller one . There are other bits of live white wire in the lamp bucket that will affect this test, look at the wiring diagram.
Quite possibly for the front brake light switch or rear brake light switch to be a source of earth fault, simply disconnect these and test again to see if they are the source.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/19/17 5:41 pm.

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#715807 - 11/19/17 6:37 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
"So the w/y runs through the headlight, and there may be in an insulation failure in it there? Those are the only wires that are not wrapped on the bike."
Maybe , maybe not, on my 71 the grey sleeve with the cores ( including the White yellow) runs along the bar then down to the multi connectors under the frame spine front. doesnt go to the headlamp, there isnt a lot of room in a flatback lamp, by all means poke about in there and look for shorts.

can you not get your bike in the hoose.? Mine comes in , minus gas tank to keep the missus happy.

The compression numbers arent great, the RHS seems particularly not great, ( the sudden jump from low to high is very suspicious) .but they are over 100 so not too bad, 120 when cold isnt far off the mark.
It shouldnt be that hard to kick over with these numbers , is it still hard to kick with the plugs out? If so something is wrong, it should be loosey goosey, maybe a tight primary chain, bad bearing or worse. How long since bore / piston/ head work,? Does it burn oil? or use an unreasonable amount?

Your earth fault wont have helped anything, good find, if the ignition switch doesnt fix it, try splitting the RHS lever clamp ( 4 posidrive screws) and disconnect the front brake cable so the switch housing is off the bar and dangling, see if that clears it. if that doesnt help its mostl likely to be in the rats nest part of the wiring where the two grey lines from the bars say hello to stuff under the front frame spine. Dont be upset by the rats nest term, its just what it is in that area , I rewired my bike and this bit is still a rats nest.Albeit a slightly smaller one . There are other bits of live white wire in the lamp bucket that will affect this test, look at the wiring diagram.
Quite possibly for the front brake light switch or rear brake light switch to be a source of earth fault, simply disconnect these and test again to see if they are the source.


First let me say, I wish there were a way to eliminate that coil box, so that all the wires were accessible. Anyone do that and have proper wire chase. All these dangling wires are not the way to go.

Hmm The front brake light switch has jumped to the fore of suspects. The brown wire is now disconnected from it. I don't think it was when I did the tests, because I believe I engaged it and saw a lowering of the resistance. Perhaps I should do the test again with that disconnected.

You mentioned once before that that switch could be replaced by a rear brake switch. How is that accomplished?

The brake light switches themselves are not connected to ground are they? They are all free of frame also, correct? Something must be connecting to ground. The key switch is connected to frame as is the rectifier.

Here is question: Since the rectifier is connected to ground and b/b, might I have been getting a reading of the resistance of the rectifier at 9.6? from b/b to ground? So that would be completely normal? What about the reduction with lights on, and the jumping around of reading with counter clockwise rotation of the key switch.

Bike is easy to kick through with plugs out.

BUT once this season at the start of putting it is service, when I was checking valve lash, it did become very hard to push through and I heard a terrible screech. It had been free before that, and has been ever since. I had put oil down the cylinders and rocker boxes. I was thinking a stuck oil ring. I don't know how much oil gets to that ring when you put oil down the plug hole. I was actually wondering about that for storage. Whether or not to fill the cylinders with oil, or fill the bottom end up to the point of the timing plug for TDC. That would coat the bearings. I don't know it would reach the oil rings.

Is 130 low for compression?


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715810 - 11/19/17 6:43 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Oh the doorways are too narrow to navigate without help. High bars too wide. Living room door is wider, and then it is through the kitchen narrow door, to dining room. It comes in with help to push up the narrow ramp. I am working on it. Now the ditch is finished, I am thinking of cutting a wide door in from that side to dining room. That requires redoing baseboard heating. Not gonna happen this time of year. Or I could sacrifice counter top and cabinets in the kitchen. Put a little deck out there. The ground is higher on that side of the house. On the living room side it slopes away.

Time to undo that positive ground from battery once again. Where were you when I needed to make that decision? smile Hope I can find my nail polish again. Wind is blowing like crazy right now. Not good to have garage door open. It may calm down.

Last edited by btour; 11/19/17 6:46 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715812 - 11/19/17 6:50 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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So I guess the first answer I need is about the rectifier. Would I be reading the resistance back through it, and if so would the number lessen with lights on, and jump around when turning them off.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715822 - 11/19/17 7:50 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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"You mentioned once before that that switch could be replaced by a rear brake switch. How is that accomplished?"

I dont like the front brake switch, it makes the brake feel more spongy less effective, I deleted it and use a cable without a switch. So I rely entirely on the rear brake switch, which is pathetic at best, so I always have a spare on the shelf. Both brake switches look like they came out od a Christmas cracker, but the rear ones are cheap.

The switches will pass to ground through the lamp filaments, one side of which is the return path to earth, if a brake switch is stuck on or is not breaking cleanly, that will show as an earth fault.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/19/17 7:51 pm.

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56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#715825 - 11/19/17 8:03 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Its only two 9/16Af nuts holding the bars on, remove bars to pass narrow door, refit after.

"ere is question: Since the rectifier is connected to ground and b/b, might I have been getting a reading of the resistance of the rectifier at 9.6? from b/b to ground? So that would be completely normal? What about the reduction with lights on, and the jumping around of reading with counter clockwise rotation of the key switch."
First part I dealt with earlier, fed up repeating myself, 2nd part. i dont think the rectifier should be slightly passing to earth,it would not be normal, I dont trust those Lucas rectifiers, so it could be.faulty, disco brown blue at rectifier and retest frame/ground to w/y ohms , if the reading clears then it was the rectifier.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
#715834 - 11/19/17 9:21 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler]  
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Its only two 9/16Af nuts holding the bars on, remove bars to pass narrow door, refit after.



What do you do with the dangling handlebars? How do you manage to steer it up a ramp. How do you use the front break. This is something I gotta see. I gotta pretty good incline and a narrow ramp. Was just outside to see if I had an old door to use as a ramp, and if I dare try to ride in. Would be easy in my younger days. Yippee.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715835 - 11/19/17 9:23 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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I tested a rectifier before. Stuart helped. He would know such things.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
#715941 - 11/20/17 7:48 pm Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour]  
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Spent six hours searching for my bits of salvaged Triumph wiring. I know they are somewhere, probably somewhere special, so that I can't find them. During the search I found a clutch hub puller that I had lent to someone, with a note that he stripped the threads. I wouldn't have even known what it was without the note. And then a thought came to me that I had others, and then the realization, that I had a whole tool box of triumph tools, and then a frantic search to find them in their special place. Memory is truly a weird thing. When mine rebooted, if I had a choice in the matter, I would have chosen to "save as" all the hard earned knowledge I had of my triumph. But I had no such choice. Grandma talking to me from the rocker, took precedence.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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