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Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: JubeePrince] #717840
12/05/17 8:43 pm
12/05/17 8:43 pm
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Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Originally Posted by JubeePrince
[quote=Btour]
1) How would you determine if the clutch were slipping when starting?




Originally Posted by JubeePrince


Ride the bike. If it doesn’t slip when riding, it shouldn’t slip when starting. The engine can generate a lot more torque than your foot.



I thought the same thing, Steve. That is why I rejected it out of hand when it was mentioned. But the facts proved me wrong.
Originally Posted by JubeePrince


One revolution = 360 degrees = one turn




Thank you, I had that part right.

And the carb idle air? 1 1/2 revolutions = 3 turns out, correct?

Last edited by btour; 12/05/17 8:59 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: htown] #717841
12/05/17 8:50 pm
12/05/17 8:50 pm
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Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Originally Posted by htown
Glad you got it sorted. I have had problems with the ignition switch on every bike I have. The originals wear out and corrode and the replacements, even the ones that say Lucas, are crap. First thing I look at with the "hot wire". Don't use a key fob. They wear them out even faster.


Thank you. No more key fob for me. Now to think of place to put the gas cap key. I have a few ideas. I need to find one of those old style key chains that you push the button and it comes apart. I can hang the gas cap key on a chain around the oil tank neck, then it will be easily accessable and put the assembly together when I get off. That way I can find the ign key in my pocket and I will miss the assembly if it falls out of my pocket.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717849
12/05/17 9:48 pm
12/05/17 9:48 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 380
Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Online content
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Isle of Wight, UK
Bob, I am genuinely pleased that you have got to the bottom of the starting problem.
A clutch may behave reasonably well when running around without putting high demand on it, and even if it were slipping a bit it wouldn't necessarily be obvious until it gets really bad. And that's with warm oil. With cold oil it is much more prone to drag and slip, and a little slip at cold startup, when the motor is at its hardest to turn, makes a big difference to how many chances you get of firing (at best you only get 3 or 4 chances for it to catch).
It is difficult to establish that the clutch is slipping a bit at cold startup, but if you have any suspicion about the clutch you would most likely have the chaincase off anyway. Then you could jam the crankshaft and see what happens when you put full force on the kicker, not stabbing but weight. I normally use this method when winding the springs in, to judge when the clutch is clamped sufficiently (my clutch is a combination of components such that I cannot depend on the usual stipulations, not that I find those reliable anyway).
I don't know anything about the w/y stuff, but I hope you get some joy out of your beast now! Dave

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717852
12/05/17 10:08 pm
12/05/17 10:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,633
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Wow, well done !
Eh tellt ye.
Your bike will start and run better with the 6 volt coils sup to you whether you use them.
Dont have your sort of meter , mine reads both ways, got tae ken yer instrument to have confidence in it.
Eh tellt ye all lamps were potential earth faults, didnae sink in.
Any way, got there in the end.
if your clutch is V stiff to operate, a nylon lined cable will help. If it slips when kicking , the kicker will feel mushy and you wont hear the pots breathing .
To be real sure, pull the primary outer case and kick over, watch the clutch, slip is easy to see this way, the centre will turn but the outer drum will be slower or stopped if it slips.
I can get to my clutch centre lock nut with a staggered ring spanner, just, a grinder might help tweak one to fit.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717876
12/06/17 1:43 am
12/06/17 1:43 am
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Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Gavin,

I could understand how it would show continuity now when metered back to ground with that oil pressure sender unit connected. But back from the w/y to disconnected negative terminal wire? The cause again was the same OP sender, confused me. Disconnect that and no continuity. As microsoft would say, it is not a ground fault. It is a feature.

Part of the problem with stiff clutch is I added a few drops of oil to the nylon lined cable. That is a no no. It can swell the lining.

Anyway I hope the next guy looking for ground faults finds this.

Last edited by btour; 12/06/17 1:56 am.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717877
12/06/17 1:51 am
12/06/17 1:51 am
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Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Koan,

Thanks for the tips on the clutch, and the best wishes for riding. I am hopeful all will still be well in the spring. I still have stuff to do on it. Rocker box gaskets leak pretty badly. Needs new fuel lines. And gas is leaking from somewhere I think high on the right carb. Shouldn't be the float bowl gasket, since it idles. May just be fuel line and I can't see it. Primary chain adjustment, And main chain., etc.

I have decided on the unheated porch for storage. I will use a dehumidifier to beat the moisture. Should work. I just have to drill a couple of holes for its hose.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717879
12/06/17 2:06 am
12/06/17 2:06 am
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,562
Illinois, USA
TR6Ray Online content

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Originally Posted by btour
. . . I have decided on the unheated porch for storage. I will use a dehumidifier to beat the moisture. Should work. I just have to drill a couple of holes for its hose.

A dehumidifier in winter, on an unheated porch in Massachusetts, is just so very wrong as a concept.


'64 TR6R Plus some Twins from other countries (U.S., Germany, Japan)
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717882
12/06/17 2:17 am
12/06/17 2:17 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,271
Back on the mainland!
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Originally Posted by btour

I thought the same thing, Steve. That is why I rejected it out of hand when it was mentioned. But the facts proved me wrong.


If that's the case, I'd suggest you have more going on with the clutch and transmission than a simple clutch push rod adjustment.

Originally Posted by btour

And the carb idle air? 1 1/2 revolutions = 3 turns out, correct?


Well, no. If the equation: One revolution = 360 degrees = one turn holds, then it would be 1 and 1/2 turns.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717900
12/06/17 11:08 am
12/06/17 11:08 am
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Steve.

I am Not going to bother with the quotes. If there is a further problem with the clutch, that shows up with riding, it will just have to wait until spring. Way too cold to test it by riding it unless we get a warm snap. For now it seems to work as it should, with the adjustment carefully attended to. And I hope I did that carefully. It is a bit complicated by the cable being sluggish. It is that third term in the equation, the adjustment of the cable at the top of the gear box, that I never really understood well. I get the other two. So now at it stands, The main push rod adjustment is 1/2 turn out. When the handle bar space is 3/8" if you press on the cable lever in the gear box and move the ball ramp mech one way the 3/8 disappears, Pull the clutch lever and the foot in the case moves to its middle position when the handlebar slack is 3/8. In other words that foot is in its middle position with 3/8" inch slack at the handle bars, and at its furthest from actuating the clutch rod when there is no slack at the handlebars. This is what seemed to make sense to me. That way the rod and ball ramp is allowed to work most freely.

I just had the main adjustment pretty far off in an a futile attempt to make the clutch clear more easily. I started off the season in haste this year. The clutch was frozen as they do. It had been working fine before storage, so in haste I just tied the lever and went to bed. Anyway, That was not the way to do it, and whether or not that caused the problem, I found a severally frayed clutch cable in side the gear box. I replaced the cable. Used the adjuster to work the clutch just a tad, until clutch was free. Did the adjustment 1/2 turn, handle bars and took at a ride. Seemed to work ok , but clutch was still not clearing as easily as I wanted. Redid the main adjustment with slightly less than 1/2, repeat 2 more times. Seemed to work fine. But don't forget the weather was getting progressively colder. Anyway, I do think that was the problem, and we won't know until spring, when I can ride it. Right now it clears properly and it grabs to kickstart the bike.

I had a problem before where the clutch center had come loose. That was a hard one to figure out. There was no way to keep the adjustment in place. I posted pictures of it at the time. I still laugh when think of it.

This turn thing is a matter like a default font on a computer. For some things it is one way for a mechanic and for others it is another. It seems that if it is less than on full revolution than all things are the same, but more than that the mechanic defaults to 1 turn = 1/2 revolution. And that makes sense, since it is easier to count that way. One half revolution = 1 turn of the screwdriver, so on the carb you count. 1 2 3 and you know exactly were you are, 1 1/2 revolutions out. So, some say 3 turns out. Or they say set it at 1 and 1/2 out, which refers to revolutions. It is a language thing, like a format. Its a bit tricky. It depends upon to whom you are speaking and in what context. Least it seems so to me. I just think best to clarify it.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: TR6Ray] #717904
12/06/17 12:00 pm
12/06/17 12:00 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TR6Ray
Originally Posted by btour
. . . I have decided on the unheated porch for storage. I will use a dehumidifier to beat the moisture. Should work. I just have to drill a couple of holes for its hose.

A dehumidifier in winter, on an unheated porch in Massachusetts, is just so very wrong as a concept.


Well, I am open to discussion on this. How long have you lived in New England? I was ready to put it in the heated house. But indoors is a humid environment unless you have a direct source of heat like a wood fire to dry it out. I don't. This would mean that small changes in temp would produce sweating.

Lets define that the goal is to reduce sweating, or the formation of water droplets via condensation, because that water if not driven off by riding and heating the metal up will make rust. Agreed?

And yes Desco, it happens and you don't see it. I posted a boroscope picture of the inside of my barrels, and you can see the pits. And that is at 40 over. It softens the metal at a depth, but you never actually see it. This happened during an extended storage. You have to remember this is very old cast iron. And I wonder at the consistency of the cast they used. Anyway all we can do is the best we can do to avoid it.

Back to New England. Fall and spring and some days even in winter are a threat. We get very changeable weather both with temp and humidity. Today for example was 91% humidity and it warmed. The temp can swing fast to below freezing. The result of warm humid air holding a lot of moisture and falling temps means water coming out of the air. You can see it on surfaces like your windshield. If it is there it is inside your bike.

Now it seems logical to me that taking the moisture out of the air, if possible, and preventing sudden swings in temp, even minute is the goal. So away from heat sources that are not constant, like radiators or windows. Now it is true a dehumidifier is sort of like a frig. It will cool the air. But it does not matter how cold the iron gets as long as it does not sweat. Now my porch adjoins my garage, and is not heated and not sunlit, but is higher than my garage. So not on the concrete which wicks moisture. The other choice would be on the other side of the wall, in the garage, but then I have to shovel out my snow tractor before I can set to work, since there will be no room in the garage, if the bike is there. Right now with the dehumidifier running, it is 62% humidity on the porch and 87% outside. Same temp. 57% in the house, but much warmer.

Opening the door from the house to the porch will allow more humid air to enter the porch, but it will always be brief. I would expect to would raise the humidity somewhat but briefly. In any case the same will happen to the garage.

Even a wood fire which will dry the air inside makes for huge swings in temp. I understand that is not the issue of the air is dry. So the goal is to take the moisture out of the air, which the dehumidifier will do.

I could get the coal stove going, but coal dust is very corrosive. I found that out when I had a bulk delivery of coal many years ago. The oil tank took a beating. Not that the ashes are as much. Still I don't want to deal with the coal if I don't have to. It is more for emergency.

Open to discussion.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717905
12/06/17 12:09 pm
12/06/17 12:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,633
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
"This turn thing is a matter like a default font on a computer. For some things it is one way for a mechanic and for others it is another. It seems that if it is less than on full revolution than all things are the same, but more than that the mechanic defaults to 1 turn = 1/2 revolution. And that makes sense, since it is easier to count that way. One half revolution = 1 turn of the screwdriver, so on the carb you count. 1 2 3 and you know exactly were you are, 1 1/2 revolutions out. So, some say 3 turns out. Or they say set it at 1 and 1/2 out, which refers to revolutions. It is a language thing, like a format. Its a bit tricky. It depends upon to whom you are speaking and in what context. Least it seems so to me. I just think best to clarify it."
Bollocks.

Incorrect "One half revolution = 1 turn of the screwdriver," only to you, for every one else its a 1/2 turn or 180 degrees.

One whole turn equals 360 degrees, end of story.
One and a half turns = 360 +180 = 540 degrees.

if you struggle with this , mark one end of a screw slot with a sharpie, when the dots line up again its a whole turn.
try standing on one spot, turn round 180 till you face the other way, ask yourself , does this feel like a whole turn? its the same for screwdrivers, dont be fooled by symmetry.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717907
12/06/17 12:49 pm
12/06/17 12:49 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,535
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
I wasted an incredible amount of time searching for a ground fault that did not exist. And Gavin, you really should have known that. Certainly Stuart.

Mmmm ...

You specifically asked me to become involved in this thread, which I did against my better judgement.

I can't speak for Gavin but, in my first post, I told you what you were doing wrong but you insisted that two different readings along the same length of wire couldn't possibly be operator error - despite you're using a digital meter, "L" is not a number and digital meters never display zero when measuring resistance.

As Gavin posted:-

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
got tae ken yer instrument

(= "you have got to know your instrument").

Moreover, "ground". Does. Not. Exist. If you start ascribing "faults" to something that Does Not Exist, you have no hope of solving the real problem.

At best, on a vehicle, "ground" is simply shorthand for the common connections between electrical resistances and one of the two battery terminals; on a pre-'79 Britbike with standard electrics, "ground" is between electrical resistances and battery +ve. You can use a meter to check for continuity between a given resistance and (in this case) battery +ve but that wasn't what you were doing, you were using your meter to check the resistance/continuity of a random length of wire.

Originally Posted by btour
IMHO, if you are truly strong it is your responsibility to help the weak, the frail, the elderly.

Here, if you mean helping someone with less electrical knowledge than me, that's what I was doing. But, at the time, it was a choice between helping my frail, elderly father who was ill, someone who was taking my electrical advice and someone who wasn't. Who do you suppose lost out?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717917
12/06/17 2:57 pm
12/06/17 2:57 pm
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Posts: 507
Ewing. NJ
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edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
Re: the clutch. I always thought that a clutch that didn't slip when you are running couldn't slip when kicking also. I have since learned otherwise. On my B50, which has boatloads of compression, the clutch does not slip at all while running down the road. If you get the starting ritual wrong and kick against compression, it will slip (interestingly, the same is not true of my 441). My Parilla, which does not have a compression release, will slip if you kick it against compression (you have to ease it past), but not while running down the road. My little Wards 65cc two stroke slips terribly when kicking (needs a new clutch spring and plates) unless you just slowly push it through. Runs fine down the road.

Ed from NJ

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: gavin eisler] #717919
12/06/17 3:13 pm
12/06/17 3:13 pm
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 492
NY
OriginalScott Online content
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler

Bollocks.

Incorrect "One half revolution = 1 turn of the screwdriver," only to you, for every one else its a 1/2 turn or 180 degrees.

One whole turn equals 360 degrees, end of story.
One and a half turns = 360 +180 = 540 degrees.

if you struggle with this , mark one end of a screw slot with a sharpie, when the dots line up again its a whole turn.
try standing on one spot, turn round 180 till you face the other way, ask yourself , does this feel like a whole turn? its the same for screwdrivers, dont be fooled by symmetry.


It has nothing to do with symmetry and confusing a half rotation with a full rotation. What Bob is talking about is the ability of the human hand to turn a screwdriver. You physically cannot turn a screwdriver one complete rotation without re-gripping in some manner. The most you can turn a screwdriver without re-gripping is about a half rotation. I have heard it referred to as a full turn = 180 degree rotation. Bob didn't make this up and it has been discussed before on this forum. Personally I use 1/4 rotation when turning carb adjustment screws and count off 4 quarter turns to get a full rotation.

Scott

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717920
12/06/17 3:16 pm
12/06/17 3:16 pm
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Posts: 7,271
Back on the mainland!
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I’ve never experienced clutch issues at start that did not present themselves at running, but that’s not to say it’s not possible!

Singles are a whole ‘nother animal when it comes to starting. I watched some one try and start NoNameMan’s single at the TSMR last year. Took him about 20 minutes to figure out the ideal spot to kick from.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: btour] #717927
12/06/17 3:51 pm
12/06/17 3:51 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,648
South cone
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reverb Offline
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South cone
...c mon Btour, please do not complicate things man; 15 pages and this on and on again without you listening and doing exactly what people like Stuart, Gavin, the Aussie guys and others (included me) that I just do not remember because I need to re read all again from the first page...
Now you are trying to make a discussion about that 1 1/2 screw turn?
I am afraid that you have bad weather there right now or too much free time in your hands.
Put the damn bike to work and fix from that or put all new stuff and forget it.

--Hope that all these cannot CUT (tiring) the help that great contributors and old members provide to solve real problems to real riders in distant places like me.

Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: Stuart] #717934
12/06/17 5:03 pm
12/06/17 5:03 pm
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Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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btour Offline OP
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Stuart,

I have no idea where you are coming from on this.

Maybe i should not have mentioned your name.

I feel bad about your father. There is nothing more important in the world than helping him. I beg you to give that all of your attention.

When they are gone, there is a huge hole left. Pls. Every moment is precious. Every moment takes courage to take it in hand.

I appreciate all your help and effort., and wish you nothing but the best.

Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by btour
I wasted an incredible amount of time searching for a ground fault that did not exist. And Gavin, you really should have known that. Certainly Stuart.

Mmmm ...

You specifically asked me to become involved in this thread, which I did against my better judgement.

I can't speak for Gavin but, in my first post, I told you what you were doing wrong but you insisted that two different readings along the same length of wire couldn't possibly be operator error - despite you're using a digital meter, "L" is not a number and digital meters never display zero when measuring resistance.

As Gavin posted:-

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
got tae ken yer instrument

(= "you have got to know your instrument").

Moreover, "ground". Does. Not. Exist. If you start ascribing "faults" to something that Does Not Exist, you have no hope of solving the real problem.

At best, on a vehicle, "ground" is simply shorthand for the common connections between electrical resistances and one of the two battery terminals; on a pre-'79 Britbike with standard electrics, "ground" is between electrical resistances and battery +ve. You can use a meter to check for continuity between a given resistance and (in this case) battery +ve but that wasn't what you were doing, you were using your meter to check the resistance/continuity of a random length of wire.

Originally Posted by btour
IMHO, if you are truly strong it is your responsibility to help the weak, the frail, the elderly.

Here, if you mean helping someone with less electrical knowledge than me, that's what I was doing. But, at the time, it was a choice between helping my frail, elderly father who was ill, someone who was taking my electrical advice and someone who wasn't. Who do you suppose lost out?

Hth.

Regards,


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: OriginalScott] #717935
12/06/17 5:06 pm
12/06/17 5:06 pm
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Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by OriginalScott
Originally Posted by gavin eisler

Bollocks.

Incorrect "One half revolution = 1 turn of the screwdriver," only to you, for every one else its a 1/2 turn or 180 degrees.

One whole turn equals 360 degrees, end of story.
One and a half turns = 360 +180 = 540 degrees.

if you struggle with this , mark one end of a screw slot with a sharpie, when the dots line up again its a whole turn.
try standing on one spot, turn round 180 till you face the other way, ask yourself , does this feel like a whole turn? its the same for screwdrivers, dont be fooled by symmetry.


It has nothing to do with symmetry and confusing a half rotation with a full rotation. What Bob is talking about is the ability of the human hand to turn a screwdriver. You physically cannot turn a screwdriver one complete rotation without re-gripping in some manner. The most you can turn a screwdriver without re-gripping is about a half rotation. I have heard it referred to as a full turn = 180 degree rotation. Bob didn't make this up and it has been discussed before on this forum. Personally I use 1/4 rotation when turning carb adjustment screws and count off 4 quarter turns to get a full rotation.

Scott


Thanks, Scott. I felt assured that I had read it here, first, and confirmed with other mechanics. We are talking semantics now. It is just vocabulary. I don't know why some have to make such a big deal out or it.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
Re: Hard starting by kicking [Re: reverb] #717936
12/06/17 5:13 pm
12/06/17 5:13 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
B
btour Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
btour  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,891
Massachusetts, U.S.A.
Reverb,

? If you don't want to read the whole thing, why say anything? You are making a lot of assumptions and no attempt to understand what has been said and done. Why do you feel the need?

I am just making a record of the results, for a record, that someone else can do a search and find. The bike is fixed. If you don't want to understand the details, pls don't. If you are curious, pls do.

Everyone acts like we are using up precious bandwidth. These are simple text messages. Beyond trivial in todays world. What matter how long a thread goes on? It is not like we are posting videos here.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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