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Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714551
11/10/17 9:35 pm
11/10/17 9:35 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,557
Maui Hawaii
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Maui Hawaii
Installing a pressure fed top end oil line means diverting some oil from the lower end. With a stock oil pump, this is a questionable practice. A high volume pump is recommended.

But then you'll need valve guide seals or experience smoking and high oil consumption. Triumph opted not to do this except for a very short time in the late 40's. No seals were fitted to my knowledge.

And the oil mist lubrication magic that goes on in a Triumph top end is still a bit of alchemy to me. Yes it does work, but in conjunction with the drip feed. Try running a Triumph without it for a spell. There will be a horrible screeching coming from the top end before too long.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: TR7RVMan] #714567
11/10/17 11:24 pm
11/10/17 11:24 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,259
Back on the mainland!
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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan

I've started my bike with valve covers off & very little oil comes out of rocker ends. Most runs straight down the side of rocker box. A tiny bit flows along top of rocker arm & is flung off the end with almost nothing on tip of valve stem.


Hi Don,

Are the thrust and thackery washers set up correctly? Many bikes are not and can account for the valve tips not receiving the little (but important) oil they need.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714672
11/11/17 10:00 pm
11/11/17 10:00 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
D
desco Online content OP
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
Mystery? After a cold night (28 F) I fired up the 72. 95psi at idle! Took the oil cap off expecting to see oil shooting like a hydrant. Still just a dribble. Then I realized it was a CONSTANT dribble. It used to spurt.
I pulled the filter and it was plugged solid on the inlet side with a white, viscous foam. All the pleats had some foam between them. Drained the sump. Only got 175 cc this time and the top 35 or so was a dirtier foam.
Drained the tank. Oil was filthy. Looked more like 5,000 miles instead of 15 or 20. And more foam. I don't see any reason to pull the oil pump, it is obviously working. I'm out of filters and will not have any new ones till Friday. Fill it up with oil and run without a filter to see what happens? I am curious.

PS
I would not have that much pressure with a blown crank seal would I? That was the other thing I wanted to check.

Last edited by desco; 11/11/17 11:05 pm. Reason: subtraction

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714683
11/11/17 11:07 pm
11/11/17 11:07 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content OP
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
Found a filter in Bishop. No change on the return.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714687
11/11/17 11:36 pm
11/11/17 11:36 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 238
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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Posts: 238
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Steve, The rockers are as from factory. The '73 has spiral cut rocker shafts so they oil well. I've monitored rocker adjuster & valve stem wear.

I ran Castrol GTX 20-50 back in the 70s. That proved to be a bad oil & allowed much wear on flat tappets & the like.

I refinished valve stem tips & adjuster screws when I did the tappet block reseal. Also did a light valve lap at that time. As I recall about 11000 miles. I'd have to look up exact figures. Not too bad, but a fair amount of wear.

Since getting bike from storage I started using Mobil1 v-twin 20-50. Bike now has 22k miles. The valve tip & adjuster wear is doing quite well. A fraction of the prior wear. The V-twin seems to be a much better oil from a wear stand point. Dramatically better. I've seen this in a few bikes now.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714689
11/11/17 11:44 pm
11/11/17 11:44 pm
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 944
New Zealand
Excalibur Online content
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New Zealand
Run without filter and compare. Will be really interesting to see if it solves anything. At that temperature maybe the oil can't pass and is creating backpressure?

Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714696
11/12/17 12:12 am
11/12/17 12:12 am
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 238
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 238
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Desco, The white foam is from condensation. I've seen this several times on good working motors. The condensation is normal.

If you road bike several miles & got it hot the white would disappear. Always important to change primary oil as it really collects condensation.

Good you have a filter. What filter are you using.

Regarding the crank seal, since oil pressure is good, it's very unlikely it's split or turned out. Same with oil pump.

Since motor sump has normal amount of oil in it the return pump is working. I knew that or you'd have filled motor with oil & frame would be low by that amount.

The spurts are caused by pump sucking dry, then oil fill enough in motor sump to suck oil & send it back quickly.

On my bike it spurts at idle, but once you get to 1500rpm & higher it is almost a steady stream. At 4000 it looks like a strong squirt with no visible gaps in oil. A slight pulsation in stream is all you see.

You can test return pump using a vacuum gauge. Shop manual covers this. I've done the test a few times. I warm motor, pull sump drain/screen & attach rubber hose to steel pipe. Adapt that hose to any vacuum gauge. Start motor. The vacuum almost instantly goes to 22-24". Turning off motor it takes a long time to drop. Mine didn't just drop off. Of course oil streams out of sump with engine running so put a catch pan under it.

I don't know why your oil would get dirty so fast. After bike has been ran the oil will aeriate very quickly. That is normal also.

Now are we getting back to my curiosity of the differential between the return orifice & the rocker feed orifice?

Is the rockers getting too much oil & oil is recirculating from top end, yet the return pump can send enough to tank to not fill motor?? It seems like it could be happening??

This is where exact knowledge of the return system may help you. I obviously don't have exact knowledge. That's why I'm so curious about how factory determined this.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714699
11/12/17 12:39 am
11/12/17 12:39 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
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desco Online content OP
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
Thanks, Forgot about the vacuum test. Will try that when it warms up a bit tomorrow. I've never had this much foam. I'm thinking something is sucking air somewhere? It is also starting to backfire and blow a little smoke.
I am also starting to think I did some damage. Hoping for a mild winter. Could be spending a lot of time in the garage. I've had this bike for over 35 years. If it farts I pretty much know what to look at.

PS
My oil filter is made by Dmadigan of this site. Very small and easy to hide. The fact that I actually found a filter for it in Bishop is a true miracle.

Last edited by desco; 11/12/17 12:49 am. Reason: addtion

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714914
11/13/17 10:22 pm
11/13/17 10:22 pm
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
D
desco Online content OP
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desco  Online Content OP
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D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,712
Bishop, Calif.
Found a photo of the filter installed. Nicely made. Homemade bracket. Big muffler clamp and piece of aluminum diamond plate. Not as pretty, but it works and is well hidden.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XJbZ2SggNRzk3WCI2

Taking a break from M/Cs for a while. If a warm day comes along and I'm in the mood I'll dig deeper. Don't think this is going to go away easily.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Ran with little or no oil. [Re: desco] #714918
11/13/17 10:55 pm
11/13/17 10:55 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,262
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Originally Posted by desco
Thanks, Forgot about the vacuum test. Will try that when it warms up a bit tomorrow. I've never had this much foam. I'm thinking something is sucking air somewhere? It is also starting to backfire and blow a little smoke.
.


You mention a bit of smoke and misfire? Excessive blowby past the rings will cause a lot of condensation in the oil....sometimes an engine with broken rings still show ok on a compression test....Just saying and it might not be....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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