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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732085
04/16/18 6:09 pm
04/16/18 6:09 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Originally Posted by chaterlea25
The distortion of the head is a new one on me
Me too. In all the books and magazines I've read over the years I can't remember ever seeing that effect mentioned. In retrospect, now knowing the effect exists, and seeing it for myself, it's clear it should exist.

As an aside, when off-line a week ago you asked what information I could find on HD balance factors I looked through all my HD technical books, having titles like 'Building a Torque Monster'. Those books would have the reader swapping major components like rods and pistons, but in none of them was balancing the engine even discussed. Car technical literature, as represented by the Sunnen book, are decades ahead of motorcycle literature (although, having said that, I've read plenty of car technical books without ever seeing valve seat distortion mentioned before this)

Originally Posted by George Kaplan
My 20F has a head and cylinder that are one casting rather than a separate head ... I would expect that the distortion of the valve seats on tightening down the cylinder would be much less than on a bike with a separate head.
If I understand the construction correctly (as determined by looking at a few pictures on the web), I expect the effect would be essentially non-existent in your 20F. Some weeks/months ago when I measured the distortion of my cylinder caused by the torque plate the effect of the plate was unmeasureable more than 2 or so inches from the plate.

Originally Posted by chaterlea25
Remember to allow for some "stretch" of the valves when setting the initial valve clearances
It's worse than that. I don't know if I already wrote about it, since I still have a set of measurements to make once the head is attached, but the "base circle" of my cam isn't a perfect circle, wavering by as much as 0.0041". The manual calls for 'nil clearance' so if I happened to set that at the lowest value on the base circle, the cam would push the valves open by up to 0.004" as the lifter continued around the base circle.

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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732093
04/16/18 7:14 pm
04/16/18 7:14 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 417
Cork Ireland
C
chaterlea25 Offline
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C
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 417
Cork Ireland
Hi All
John,
I am sorting out the 23 HD F for its owner / rider to use on the Cannonball
I will be with the traveling circus as acting "spannerman" and support vehicle driver

Yes the HD should not suffer from the ohv head distortion, But the HD with its hot side valve exhaust will suffer from cylinder distortion
?? if the cylinder wall distorts will this affect the shape of the valve seat ?

The answer is I think better not known !!! as what can be done about it??? LOL

I was not referring to the HD in the earlier post but thinking about the other engines that are in the "shed"

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: chaterlea25] #732111
04/16/18 10:25 pm
04/16/18 10:25 pm
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 53
England
G
George Kaplan Offline
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George Kaplan  Offline
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G
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 53
England
Originally Posted by chaterlea25

I am sorting out the 23 HD F for its owner / rider to use on the Cannonball
I will be with the traveling circus as acting "spannerman" and support vehicle driver


Ah, I missed that detail, I had mistakenly assumed that you were the other rider.


Originally Posted by chaterlea25

I was not referring to the HD in the earlier post but thinking about the other engines that are in the "shed"


I too need to think about how to tackle engine work in the future after following this thread.

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan] #732137
04/17/18 2:55 am
04/17/18 2:55 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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U.S.
Originally Posted by George Kaplan
I too need to think about how to tackle engine work in the future after following this thread.
I'm surprised no one has commented that plenty of motorcycles have been rebuilt using little more than adjustable spanners and hammers and "they ran just fine." Those people will get to gloat when my Ariel dies of unknown causes 500 yards from the starting line.

The only progress today was reading the UPS tracking information that says my Neway cutters are due for delivery Thursday afternoon.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732139
04/17/18 3:27 am
04/17/18 3:27 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,850
The Northwoods... Michigan
Steve Erickson Offline
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The Northwoods... Michigan
..."adjustable spanners and hammers".... well, let's not forget beer.

In the Big Bang episode you spoke of, remember Sheldon said "The best decisions are made with a full bladder".

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Steve Erickson] #732196
04/17/18 4:50 pm
04/17/18 4:50 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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U.S.
Originally Posted by Steve Erickson
... well, let's not forget beer. ...remember Sheldon said "The best decisions are made with a full bladder".
Yes, we musn't forget all the bikes that were rebuilt aided by decisions made with a bladder full of beer and that are claimed to "run just fine."

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732217
04/17/18 7:50 pm
04/17/18 7:50 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,746
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
I cant wait to see the cam base circle correction grind set up, that 4 thou would bother me. i spent an age on the BSA cams with a clock with 0.0001" resolution, there was nary a waver on the base circle with the clock tip in the push rod top cup , not straight off the cam..There was a very slight dip just before the quietening ramp but only for a couple of degree, presumably where the follower makes 1st contact.

The valve seat distortion is v interesting, when its up to temperature? What you dont know cant hurt you perhaps.


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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732234
04/17/18 10:13 pm
04/17/18 10:13 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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U.S.
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I cant wait to see the cam base circle correction grind set up, that 4 thou would bother me.
It bothers me as well. The reason I haven't done anything yet about the wobbly base circle is my measurements were of a single line around the cam. I need to repeat the measurements at the top of the pushrods since the wide surfaces of the lifters will average over the full width of the cam so there will be significant averaging of the peaks and valleys of the cam (as well as of any peaks and valleys of the lifters). At that point I'll know if I have to deploy the toolpost grinder again and, if I do, decide how best to attack the problem.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The valve seat distortion is v interesting, when its up to temperature?
Ideally, I would make the measurements with the head bolted to the cylinder and wrapped with heating tape so everything could be brought up to a normal operating temperature with a temperature profile down the cylinder to the base. Such a measurement could be done via a custom-made linkage mechanism operating through a valve guide. Actually, if I were to do this I'd design an optical metrology instrument to do it.

I would be quite interested in having the results, but this isn't the time to pursue this. I have to take comfort in the fact that it's an iron head bolted to an iron cylinder so differential thermal expansion will be small to nil and so the distortion at room temperature should stay the same at elevated temperature.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732235
04/17/18 10:24 pm
04/17/18 10:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,738
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Ideally, I would make the measurements with the head bolted to the cylinder and wrapped with heating tape so everything could be brought up to a normal operating temperature with a temperature profile down the cylinder to the base. Such a measurement could be done via a custom-made linkage mechanism operating through a valve guide. Actually, if I were to do this I'd design an optical metrology instrument to do it.

I would be quite interested in having the results, but this isn't the time to pursue this. I have to take comfort in the fact that it's an iron head bolted to an iron cylinder so differential thermal expansion will be small to nil and so the distortion at room temperature should stay the same at elevated temperature.


i once asked a race car machinist if he ever thought about boring and honing his blocks with coolant running through the passages to mimic the distortion of a running engine.

he said, with cylinder leakage at about one percent or so already, what would be the gain?


live every day.
die once.
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kevin roberts] #732245
04/18/18 12:01 am
04/18/18 12:01 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by kevin roberts
he said, with cylinder leakage at about one percent or so already, what would be the gain?
For me, at least, gaining knowledge of what happens and why it happens is at least as important as the result itself. In the case of the valve seats, making the "discovery" that a torque plate, and even just installing a spark plug, makes a measureable difference was very pleasing, whether or not the distortion has an effect on performance or longevity.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732408
04/19/18 1:14 pm
04/19/18 1:14 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 449
Dallas Texas
RPM Offline
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RPM  Offline
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Dallas Texas
Since the side valve Norton does not have head bolts and the valve seats are very far from the spark plug hole no distortion was found either place. That fancy OHV stuff is just a passing trend. Much to complicated. Ha Ha !
I will be checking for distortion of the valve seat on my new T140 race head. Very interesting thought and I can see it is possible especially when over tightening the spark plug.
The results that makes me happy or unhappy is at the end of each race day. However the more results you come up with in the shop the better your results at the end of each day.
Carry on the outstanding work!

Ready for for test run.
https://www.facebook.com/1901197843...103/1621850327851874/?type=3&theater

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: RPM] #732430
04/19/18 4:43 pm
04/19/18 4:43 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by RPM
That fancy OHV stuff is just a passing trend. Much to complicated.
I agree that fewer moving parts can be an advantage, but if along the way your Nortons take it to the limit of no moving parts that advantage will be lost...

Originally Posted by RPM
Carry on the outstanding work!
Thanks very much for the compliment. I've had to take care of other things this week but I should be back in the garage as of tomorrow. UPS tracking updates show the Neway cutters are scheduled for delivery this afternoon.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732469
Yesterday at 03:14 AM
Yesterday at 03:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,278
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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The only Ariel progress I made today was opening a package that arrived. However, now that the seat cutters are here it's back to the, um, grindstone. Although, with cutters, not grindstones.

Not Ariel related, I spent a little time yesterday starting to rebuild a Gold Star's oil pump for a friend. I'll work on it during spare time the next week or so and will use the opportunity to make careful photographs and measurements since I haven't found the specifications or rebuild process documented anywhere.

Attached Files IMG_7264.JPG
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #732552
2 hours ago
2 hours ago
Joined: Nov 2011
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U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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The Neway cutters worked out very well for me. They cut fast so the key is to take it slow and pause frequently to check progress with Dykem. And by taking it slow, I mean just a few revolutions of the cutter between checks. Having a heat gun handy speeds things up by drying the Dykem fast. However, like many other tasks, if I were my supervisor in a motorcycle shop I would fire me for being too cautious, i.e. slow. I did the cutting with the torque plate and spark plug in place and before I started I checked to be sure the bolts were still at 20 ft.lbs.

Both seats were a bit off center from the guides so the cutters definitely earned their keep (which, at ~$400, wasn't cheap keep). Since the IDs of the guides differed by ~0.001", instead of buying two solid pilots I bought a single adjustable pilot. This wasn't because I was attempting to cut corners (an adjustable pilot is approx. the price of two fixed pilots), but because I was uncertain whether the 0.001" steps in solid pilots implied being off by half that would result in a pilot sitting to high or too low. Although warnings said the solid pilots were more rigid than the adjustable, which I believe, I didn't feel any flex whatever in the adjustable pilot.

I proceeded according to the Neway instructions starting with the 60-deg. exit angle. In the first photograph the darker area around 11:00 isn't because of the lighting, it's because the seat is slightly off center so that part hadn't been touched by the cutter as yet.

After cutting the 60-deg. exit I turned to the 30-deg entrance, shown in the second photograph. It can be seen that the ring is narrower near 11:00, again because the seat is slightly offset. If I stopped at this point and cut the 45-deg. seat it would occupy the area still covered with Dykem, i.e. it would be quite wide. However, I was still becoming one with the cutters at this point so I was removing small amounts of material at a time, knowing I could always easily remove additional material (but not put it back).

When it was time to turn to the actual 45-deg. seat on the exhaust port the cutter stopped cutting while there was still material to remove between ~10:00 and ~12:00. After puzzling over this for a minute I realized the "nut" for driving that double-ended cutter must be hitting the guide, which projects further into the port than does the one in the inlet port (where I didn't have this problem). Since only a thou. or two remained to be removed I put the cutter in the lathe and took 0.015" off the end of the "nut." Even factoring in the 45-deg. angle I suspect 0.005" would have been sufficient but I took a bit more to be done with it.

In addition to the 30/45/60-deg. cuts I also used the 15-deg. cutter (the 45-deg. is dual-ended, so the 15-deg. cutter came for free). Not because it will make any performance difference, but so when someone proudly tells me of their "three-angle valve job" I can scoff piteously at them for only having three angles.

Attached Files Neway01.jpgNeway02.jpgNeway03.jpg
Page 39 of 39 1 2 37 38 39


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