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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #737267
05/31/18 10:56 pm
05/31/18 10:56 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 902
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Sorry to hear about your riding woes but at least everyone seems to be OK, just one of those things I guess.

Regarding the gummed up carb slide, maybe one possibility is that the the fuel tank has been sealed at some point in the past with a non ethanol resistant sealant which is now slowly breaking down. Alternately a similar problem may happen if the tank is fibreglass.

I note that you are using a foam air filter and would like to offer some advise which you are likely already aware of but for safety's sake I will repeat. Foam air filters can be the source of fires especially if you experience kickback or spitback through the carb. The problem is made worse if oil or fuel has leaked onto the filter and the filter is old. A while back my B44 caught fire whilst using a foam air filter when I experienced kickback. I was lucky as I was able to extinguish the fire after a few seconds using my gloved hands, any longer and the whole bike could have gone up in flames.

I believe some foam air filters are resistant to fire and better still are the K&N style filters which use cotton as a filter medium together with a stainless steel mesh which in combination make the risk virtually zero.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #737280
06/01/18 12:40 am
06/01/18 12:40 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by gunner
Sorry to hear about your riding woes but at least everyone seems to be OK, just one of those things I guess.
If an accident had to happen, it was the best I could have hoped for. Damage to my friend was enough to give us something to remember the ride by, but not enough to last beyond a couple of days. Of course, of far less importance than damage to people is damage to the bikes. The BB appears to have suffered only cosmetic damage and the Matchless looks as good as ever (although, its beauty may turn out to be only skin deep...).

The bikes are off the truck and in the garage now. Over the weekend I'll drain the fuel from both (and the oil from the Matchless before its leaky oil pump does it for me) and examine the BB more closely. The only thing I can see that I'll have to order are new footpeg rubbers. Everything else I either have (replacement Chronometric glass), or it looks like I can fix with a little labor plus paint.

I should have put in a plug in for properly rebuilt magnetos in my post yesterday. For the Matchless I had to take the battery off the charger, add water because I hadn't noticed it was getting low, open the cover, wire it into place, and close the cover. The bike acted like it was somewhat inclined to start on the first kick, but it wanted me to kick harder than I did. After three wimpy kicks we pushed the bike and it started almost instantly. In contrast, after sitting unused for six months the Gold Star simply started on the first kick. I hate batteries.

Originally Posted by gunner
Regarding the gummed up carb slide, maybe one possibility is that the the fuel tank has been sealed at some point in the past with a non ethanol resistant sealant which is now slowly breaking down.
No, the inside of the tank is bare steel.

Originally Posted by gunner
Foam air filters can be the source of fires
Thanks for mentioning this. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any filters that would fit in the Catalina's air box which is why I custom cut my own from foam.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #737384
06/02/18 5:35 am
06/02/18 5:35 am
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 2
Texas
sanarthur Offline
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sanarthur  Offline
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Posts: 2
Texas
Hi MM I´m sorry to hear about your mishap and I hope your friend arrived ok after such a long flight back.

Saludos

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: sanarthur] #737475
06/02/18 11:39 pm
06/02/18 11:39 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by sanarthur
I hope your friend arrived ok after such a long flight back.
I got an email from him earlier today saying he arrived back in Napoli on time and with "almost no traces of the accident."

Today I removed the battery and drained the fuel and oil from the Matchless, so it's now officially in mothballs for the foreseeable future. I then drained the fuel from the BB and turned my attention to the Catalina's sticky slide. Repeat after me, correlation does not necessarily imply causality.

I removed the jet block and thoroughly cleaned it, the wall of the main body, and inside and outside of the slide. Nothing felt sticky before I did this although the paper towels removed quite a bit black residue from various surfaces. However, after I bolted the jet block back into place (it's held down by the jet holder) the slide was very stiff, although slightly loosening the jet block freed it up. I disassembled, reassembled, and repeated this a few times getting somewhat different results each time varying from being a little tighter to being much tighter after I tightened the jet block.

Since this was consistent with the base of the jet block being slightly tilted with respect to its seating surface in the carburetor body I put the jet block in the lathe and ended up skimming about 0.003" from the seating surface before it was perpendicular to its walls. The photograph shows it after the first ~0.001" or so had been removed. After I did this and reassembled the carburetor the slide was smooth as silk. The black residue had been a red herring.

In retrospect this all makes sense. At least once in the past after assembling the carburetor there was a noticeable 'catch' in the movement of the slide at low throttle settings that was quite annoying. But, it went away as I fiddled with the jetting. Each time I changed the main jet I could easily change the torque on the jet holder that clamps the jet block in place. Since there was a slight tilt to its bottom surface different torques resulted in slightly different amounts of tilt of the top of the jet block, changing the clearance between it and the carburetor body. After my final jetting run last fall during which the carburetor behaved well I drained the fuel from the carburetor. In retrospect it is now clear that I changed the torque on the jet block as well when I re-tightened it. The jet block also had six months to slightly settle, which could have been a factor as well. Mystery solved.


Attached Files JetBlock.jpg
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #737506
06/03/18 7:35 am
06/03/18 7:35 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,273
Middle East,
Kerry W Offline
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Kerry W  Offline
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Middle East,
Well spotted. I'd like to think I'd find and correct a problem like that!

The bigger question in my mind, is why was there a problem in the first place?


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #737541
06/03/18 4:14 pm
06/03/18 4:14 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Kerry W
The bigger question in my mind, is why was there a problem in the first place?
The Catalina was from the same guy who built my lovely BB Gold Star and friend's lovely ZB34/M20 bitza who all evidence indicates was an excellent mechanic (an electrician, not so much...). However, unlike the BB, the Catalina wasn't finished when he died, and the carburetor(s) have caused more than their fair share of grief.

Looking back through my notes, despite finding and correcting various issues (e.g. it came to me with a short 'C' series needle in it rather than the correct 'D' series) I still had trouble getting the bike to run at all. I later determined a major factor was too much back pressure from the silencer I had added to the open pipe, but a few days before discovering that I "Built up a completely new 389 carburetor using none of the components from the current carb. except the needle and 4 cutaway slide. Brass float, viton needle, and proper float bowl height. It transformed the bike." Twelve days, and five entries in my notes, later I wrote "Carb no longer has tight spot." Although the intervening notes don't mention the tight spot it's clear the issue due to the slightly tilted throttle body has been there ever since I built that carburetor from parts.

So, finally, getting to your question. Of course, there's no way to know the history of that jet block. It could have come out of the casting mold that way, been slightly "mis-chucked" in the factory lathe if there was a subsequent machining operation, slowly distorted over time due to certain of Zamak's issues with dimensional stability, or abused in some way by previous owners. I tend to think abuse wasn't the cause since, although 0.003" doesn't seem like much, that's actually a lot of material to have been displaced when there are no signs of abuse.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751520
10/04/18 5:41 pm
10/04/18 5:41 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Where I left off this thread the Catalina was, as far as I know at this point, 100% ready to go, although thanks to working on the Ariel I haven't ridden it since last fall. The BB, on the other hand, has been sitting mostly untouched on the lift since it slid down the road four months ago. Luckily, the damage to the BB was cosmetic and not very severe. So, no longer facing a hard deadline with the Ariel I turned to the BB.

The back corner of the seat was slightly torn. I filled in the tears with black 'Shoe Goo' which didn't return it to as-new condition, but it will do on a bike intended to be ridden. As with the other damage, all of it is on the left side of the bike.

The tank had two chips in the paint, exposing red primer. I filled the chips with Testors metallic silver. Again, not perfect, but it will do. The photograph doesn't do justice to the color match which is pretty good, although not perfect (e.g. the one at the lower right actually is the same silver as the other one, not brown). Also, I haven't sanded them yet to eliminate the three-dimensionality which currently makes them stand out more than they eventually will.

The headlamp bezel was bent and scraped, although the glass survived. I simply swapped the bezel for another I happened to have. Both headlamp mounting ears on the forks were bent but they were easy to bend back into position.

The mount for the speedometer was bent upwards and paint scraped off quite a bit of the outside of the case, but the glass survived. In contrast, the mount for the tachometer wasn't bent and the paint was untouched, but the glass was broken. Since the speedometer had been acting wonky at speeds above ~50 mph I used the opportunity to remove the mechanism and use spray degreaser on the old grease inside, removing most of it. This wasn't the first time the speedometer had been apart as evidenced by red silicone serving as a gasket. I then reoiled the mechanism using Starrett Tool and Instrument Oil and sprayed the case with gloss black, not taking pains to do anything like a perfect job. I degreased and oiled the tachometer as well, replacing its glass with one cannibalized from another one.

The gearbox was 90 cc low (out of 400 cc) so I topped it up, but the primary case was full. I drained the oil tank, attaching several prominent notes to the bike to that effect, and will wait until I next have a chance to ride it before adding fresh oil. Also, I have a Burgess-shaped silencer to replace the current twitter-type but won't make that swap until I'm ready to ride because once I make the switch I'll likely have to play around with the jetting.

In the hopes it solves the issue of a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd I fully tightened the plunger spring, compressing it ~1/4" further than it had been. If that doesn't solve it, and probably even if it does, longer term I plan to rebuild an STD.T gearbox and swap it for the unmarked one currently in the bike.

Attached Files Seat.jpgTank.jpgHeadlamp.jpgSpeedometer.jpg
Last edited by Magnetoman; 10/04/18 6:25 pm. Reason: added info. about false neutral
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751567
10/05/18 12:30 am
10/05/18 12:30 am
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
J
Jerry Roy Offline
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Jerry Roy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past! facepalm
With age, comes wisdom.
Welcome to the "git 'er done" base. laughing

And a bit of material science in the bargain. Who knew, Shoe Goo. thumbsup

JR

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751573
10/05/18 2:33 am
10/05/18 2:33 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past!
OK, OK, I admit the seat repair isn't pretty. But in defense of the sanctity of the word "bodge," shouldn't it be reserved for repairs that are cheap and easy and worse than a proper repair? Given the variety of small tears and punctures, short of having the seat recovered, I can't think of a way to properly repair it. Further, the Shoe Goo at Ace Hardware was more expensive than their black silicone. I realize I'm drawing a fine distinction, and I'll accept the verdict of the jury, but I plead 'no bodge', your honor.

Attached Files ShoeGoo.jpg
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751685
10/06/18 12:45 am
10/06/18 12:45 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
And this, from the man who has decried bodgery in the past!
When I got my BB Gold Star almost four years ago the builder's notebook said he couldn't solve the problem of too much oil coming from the breather and so he had run a hose from it along the inside of the rear mudguard to as far back on the bike as possible. Clearly, this was a bodge. However, I thought I might have a solution to this problem so as a test I bodged together a temporary catch tank from PVC pipe and end caps filled with Cu mesh from a kitchen scrubbing pad. I then temporarily zip tied it in place under the seat.

The tube from the breather enters at the bottom of the catch tank and my hope was the oil vapor would condense back into liquid on the Cu mesh and the liquid would then run back down through the breather tube into the timing cover. I T'd the oil tank vent into a tube at the very top to take anything that made it that far back down to the ground.

The proof of concept worked great, with never a drip under the final outlet tube, but the temporary bodge remained in place. However, shamed by Jerry Roy, today I did what I have been planning to do ever since the "temporary" catch tank proved the concept. I welded a non-bodge version from a 3-1/2" length of thin wall 1-3/8" Al tubing, filled with the same Cu scrubbing pad mesh, and with proper fittings at either end for the inlet and outlet. After I polish it I'll make an appropriate bracket and mount it to the frame, bringing to an end this bodge.

Attached Files CatchTank.jpg
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751696
10/06/18 2:47 am
10/06/18 2:47 am
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
J
Jerry Roy Offline
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Jerry Roy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
Huuuummm, that's interesting.
So, are we to take away from this that a high polish changes a bodge to development engineering? confused

And speaking of pot scrubbers, did you ever pack your muffler with said items?





Can you hear me now? cool

JR

Last edited by Jerry Roy; 10/06/18 2:50 am.
Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Jerry Roy] #751746
10/06/18 4:58 pm
10/06/18 4:58 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
So, are we to take away from this that a high polish changes a bodge to development engineering?
Now, now Jerry Roy, behave yourself.

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Magnetoman] #751782
10/07/18 1:28 am
10/07/18 1:28 am
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
J
Jerry Roy Offline
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Jerry Roy  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 636
Denver CO
Ooops, I should of put a laughing emoji behind that question.
All in good humor, Doc

All levity aside, did you ever come up with something that toned down the muffler?

JR

Re: 1962 Catalina [Re: Jerry Roy] #751803
10/07/18 4:00 am
10/07/18 4:00 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,848
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Magnetoman  Online Content OP

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Posts: 4,848
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Originally Posted by Jerry Roy
did you ever come up with something that toned down the muffler?
Basically, I ignored everything but the Ariel for the past year so I didn't even give a thought to the sound. I'll have to ride it again to remind myself what it was I wanted to deal with. Maybe it will sound better to me this year.

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