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#96994 - 07/24/06 3:29 am oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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wagga wagga australia
I have recently restored a 1969 T100R.I have found that the bike has previously been rebored to 650cc. The engine has new rings etc and starts and seems to run ok but the oil pressure warning light refuses to go out. The original pressure switch has been replaced with a new one - both seemed very tight in the threads. Once started oil is being blown out of the breather.Oil is returning to the tank with good pressure. Anyone got any suggestions what I can try without stripping the motor. The only part of the bike that hasn't been inspected is the bottom end

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#96995 - 07/24/06 7:01 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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triton thrasher Online content
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If you remove the oil pressure light sender switch, does the oil pump force pulses of oil out of the hole when you turn the motor over with the kickstart?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#96996 - 07/24/06 7:50 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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meriden4ever Online content
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I have the same problem with my TSX following a full re-build...makes no difference to performance as that red lamp flickers on and off intermittently but always wondered why


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
#96997 - 07/24/06 7:54 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Tiger Offline
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If you pull the lead off the switch does the light go out ?

If you ground that lead to the engine does the light go on ?

A 1/4" BSPP [Brit standard pipe parallel] pressure gauge will go straight on to the switch mounting boss, that will give you an actual oil pressure figure.

I would get the engine hot then install the gauge and run the engine stationary to check, engine vibes will shake a cheap gauge to death and a good quality glycerine filled gauge is a bit heavy to leave hanging off an engine.

The gauges that come std on those $98 Bunnings compressors would do for a quick check.

Dunno whether a 500 can be bored to 650.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#96998 - 07/24/06 11:26 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
the oil pressure warning light refuses to go out.
Ime, this should *not* be ignored. Ideally, you should lay hands on a pressure gauge, because the 'oil pressure warning light' isn't - it's actually a 'Ha! Your engine's f**ked' light.

Let me elucidate. If you've rebuilt the engine as part of the recent restoration, and you've the proper Triumph workshop manual (rather than, hopefully, something like the Haynes waste of space), you'll know that 'Normal running' pressure is 60lb./sq.in. and 'Idling' pressure is 20/25lb./sq.in. However, what the 500 manual doesn't show, but other Triumph ones do, is that the pressure *switch* doesn't operate 'til the pressure falls to 7lb./sq.in. eek So d'you see what I mean about it being a 'Ha! Your engine's f**ked' light?

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
The original pressure switch has been replaced with a new one - both seemed very tight in the threads.
As Tiger said, Triumphs use a 1/8"BSP- (British Standard Pipe-) threaded pressure switch (note the single 'P' - 'parallel' is assumed by BS unless 'BSPT' is specified for a tapered thread - which Triumph never used). However, although it's called '1/8"', this refers to a nominal internal diameter - the actual outside diameter is 3/8". Also, you should check the thread pitch with a thread pitch gauge - it should be equivalent to 28 threads per inch.

If all of the above checks out, I'd buy a 1/8"BSP 'plug' (blunt end) tap and carefully clean out the thread in the case. Yes, this is somewhat expensive and time-consuming but, ime, not as expensive and time-consuming as another engine rebuild.

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
Once started oil is being blown out of the breather.
A newly-rebuilt engine will do this.

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
Oil is returning to the tank with good pressure.
Meaningless, regrettably.

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
The only part of the bike that hasn't been inspected is the bottom end
I have found that the bike has previously been rebored to 650cc.
That's a pity as that's where oil pressure is particularly important. Also, you cannot 'rebore' a T100 to 650 - Triumph 650's had both a bigger bore and a longer stroke than 500's (71x82 against 69x65.5); however, a 500 can be rebored to take 650 pistons (which up the total cubic capacity by a tarmac-rippling 28cc, eek at the expense of less head-gasket clamping area between the cylinders).

Quote:
Originally posted by meriden4ever:
that red lamp flickers on and off intermittently but always wondered why
Note the first two paragraphs above. Those figures apply pretty much to all Triumph twins and standard pressure switches. If you've checked the actual pressure and you're happy, the obvious alternative is the switch is dodgy. Otoh, if you haven't checked the actual pressure, *assuming* it's ok just because you've just done a 'full re-build' is, ime, A Bad Idea. Do *not* ask me how I know this, as recalling the consequent bill (for a triple) can still make a grown man cry. frown

Hth.

Regards,

#96999 - 07/24/06 12:23 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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RF Whatley Offline
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Pete -
Welcome.

Tiger and Stuart have given you some good tests and explanations. The only thing I would NOT do in the above is run the engine long enough to get it hot, as Tiger suggested. As Stuart pointed out the red light is trying to tell you about low oil pressure so all your tests must be done either very quickly or staticly.

The complete oiling system is inside or behind the timing cover. When all else is said and done, the cover will probably end up coming off. You'll want to disassemble the pump and check for trash on the small piston side. You'll also want to check the condition and position of the crankshaft oil seal. Sometimes when no-name oil seals are used they invert.

Another easy check would be disassembly of the oil pressure relief valve (the dome on the front of the engine). The wrong spring or no spring would deliver zero oil pressure.

Hope all this helps! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#97000 - 07/24/06 9:09 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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Thanks Tiger/Stuart/RFW and others for your help. I will start working on suggestions and advise the outcome. And thanks stuart re-650cc - yes the bike has been bored to take 650cc pistons something I had found out after stripping the engine which was disappointing - I may convert back to 500cc in the future depending on reliability. Also something I forgot to mention about the breather - oil is being sprayed from the breather only when I rev the engine if that helps. I am worried about the breather disc and spring not installed or functioning correctly.Is this normally a problem? And where is the breather hose routed '69's?

#97001 - 07/24/06 10:02 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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First check done - when lead is removed from switch light goes out - when lead earthed to engine light goes on. So I presume switch must be OK ( it is a brand new switch ). When kicked over with switch removed oil is being pumped out quite strongly.Now to find a pressure gauge and adapt to measure reading!

#97002 - 07/24/06 10:55 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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meriden4ever Online content
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Stuart is right- i was running very low on oil & should have checked !!!!! It was a newly rebuilt engine & that red light was always coming on/off even when full of oil


1983 TR65T Tiger Trail
1983 TSSAV
1983 TSX
1983 TR65 Thunderbird
1982 TR7T Tiger Trail
#97003 - 07/25/06 1:08 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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OK checked the oil pressure with a gauge and it shows no pressure. Will now take off the timing cover as RFW suggested and check oil pump - what seal are you refering to? I have rebuilt the primary and the oil seal behind the engine sprocket is fine with no leaking of engine oil into the primary.

#97004 - 07/25/06 3:50 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Just a thought, but what viscosity oil are you running. Should be at least 20/50. Anything less will definitely cause a drop in pressure. If you are running 20/50, try replacing it with straight 50 wt. That should do fine until the cold weather comes around again.


When people who should have known better cautioned me about the dangers of motorcycle racing, I always told them that a fear of death is nothing more than a fear of life in disguise.
#97005 - 07/25/06 4:58 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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Thanks nick - I'm running multigrade 20w-60 which we run in T140's without any problems. I have taken the oil pump (morgo) apart and have found some very slight scoring on the plungers.The drive block has a wear mark on the outer face - the cover was assembled without a paper gasket only silicone. I also found some damage to the oil seal in the cover although no oil was leaking into the points area ( have electronic ignition). Meanwhile I'll buy a new oil pump just to be sure and keep looking.

#97006 - 07/25/06 5:28 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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You may have a timing cover seal inverted.

There is an oil seal in the timing cover off the end of the crankshaft, this must have it's lip facing outboard to seal oil pressure within the oil gallery within the case to feed the crankshaft.

Easy mistake to make, the other seal in the timing case faces in the opposite direction to keep oil out of the contact breaker.

If the bigend bearings are not hideously worn you should be able to achieve at least some oil pressure, unless the crank seal is inverted.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#97007 - 07/25/06 7:37 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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BONZO R.I.P. Offline
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One other thing that I have seen frequently on triumps , especially former "choppers" is a mushroomed crankshaft end in the timing cover . this could cause all sorts of trouble , including what you describe , an judging by the "big bore" kit the PO installed , I wouldnt overlook this . If you see any sort of file marks on the end of the crank it is gonna be bad news , but it can be repaired. These really are some great bikes , and quite reliable once you getthem dialed in . Let us know how this progresses .

FWIW-BONZO

#97008 - 07/25/06 7:49 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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Tiger you have solved the problem - there is no seal in the timing cover off the end of the crankshaft only the one behind the points! My factory manual doesn't show it clearly but is it retained with a circlip? the timing gear nut fits almost flush with the end of the crankshaft - does the seal fit over the end of the crankshaft or just seal up against the shaft?

#97009 - 07/25/06 9:00 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Not really familiar with the 500 PJ but others will chime in and help, I am more familiar with the 650, the seal in the 650 engine is certainly retained by a circlip.
I will watch this space, you need advice from Richard Whatley or John Healey in particular.
Is the half time pinion [on the crank] flush with the cam pinions ?
If not you need to either tighten the half time pinion fixing nut or remove it to check the woodruff key is not cocked in the keyway and some DPO has not stripped the nut trying to tighten it against a cocked key.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#97010 - 07/25/06 5:23 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Pete -
There should be a polished journal of .625 dia on the very end of the crankshaft. (This is the delicate end Bonzo was referring to that some low IQ types like to beat on with a hammer.) On this journal, mounted in the timing cover is an oil seal that directs oil into the crankshaft. The oil seal (1 OD x 5/8 ID x 3/16 W) is pressed into the timing cover and held in place by a circlip.

This is the same size oil seal that is behind the points cavity. So there are a total of two (2) identical oil seals within the timing cover, and as Tiger pointed out, they face different directions. On any oil seal, the spring-side faces the bulk of the oil. So on the crankshaft oil seal, the spring-side goes into the cover and the plain-side faces the crankshaft.

As was said, you cannot run down to your auto parts store and install any old oil seal due to the high pressures encountered. And if your Morgo oil pump is a high volume pump it is not helping matters. You must buy from a trusted Triumph dealer who gets his oil seals from "Coventry Spares" in Boston, Mass. Order 5, you won't be sorry.


Now as to possible dammage...
I would not jump to any conclusions about crank shaft damage. I agree it is not an optimal situation, but there are several factors in your favor. Let's get the bike back together and measure the oil pressure once again. If the pressure comes up above 70 psi (oil warm) and there are no knocking noises then you're good to go. Yes, your engine life has probably been shortened by the experience, but that does not mean take it all apart again.

The only strong conclusion I can draw from this is NOT to take it back to the mechanic that left the seal out!


Careful with the sealer when re-installing the timing cover, only .015" (max) should ooze out when the cover is tightened. Also note that 2 places on the cover joint have oil ways that should NOT be blocked with excess sealer.

Hope this helps! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#97011 - 07/26/06 10:09 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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Thanks RFW for all your info. For some unknown reason the end of the shaft and the timing gear nut are flush - there's no way the end of the shaft will extend enough into the timing cover to fit the oil seal. It's very disappointing to spend 2 years on a full restore from the frame up to find some idiot before has for some reason damaged the shaft and offloaded the bike. Anyway, if I need a new crankshaft then that's what I'll do - This T100R is going to be used as my town bike and nothing is going to stop us getting on the road! Thanks again fellas for all your help.

#97012 - 07/26/06 11:33 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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triton thrasher Online content
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Sawn-off crank? Too bizarre! I know little about Unit 500s, but are you sure it's supposed to be an end-fed crank?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
#97013 - 07/26/06 12:05 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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John Healy Online content
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Are you sure this is a 1969? Does the sawn off end of the crank have a hole in it that goes into the crank or a shallow "center drill" hole?
john


#97014 - 07/26/06 12:18 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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RF Whatley Offline
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Pete -
John's correct, earlier models fed engine oil through the TS main bearing like a BSA twin. Sounds like you COULD have a 1969 timing cover on an older T100 bottom end.

If so, there are many Triumph parts you can swap around year-to-year, but that timing cover would not be one of them.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#97015 - 07/26/06 6:23 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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If the oil tank completly drains into the sump while sitting, there is no oil to feed the oil pump until the scavenge side pumps oil back to the tank so that the feed side of the pump is getting oil. As long as the oil tank is at least 1/4 full, this shouldn't be a problem although the engine may smoke until the sump is emptied.

#97016 - 07/26/06 9:43 pm Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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If you can see a big bronze bush behind the timing gear, then the oil is not fed to the end of the crankshaft, but to a drilling in the bush, sounds like my 21/3TA setup.

If your oil pump is working, then its delivering oil somewhere down that bottom end, theres nowhere for it to go except out of the pump, along the gallery to the crank bearings OR to the pressure relief valve behind that big domed nut. If you leave the timing side case off and turn the engine over by hand then you should be able to see where your oil is going. Are you sure the relief valve isn't stuck open?


99% of carb problems are electrical.

1959 3TA

BMW R1150 Oilhead
#97017 - 07/27/06 10:40 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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petejohno Offline
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Now it's all starting to make sense! yes john it only has a shallow drill hole in the crank - after much searching through the manuals my engine is a '68 with a '69 cover on it. So it appears that I have been worried about nothing. I have a new wiring loom ( '69 )which has wiring for the sender switch and, as one was in the cover, I connected it and as a result had no pressure and the oil light on all the time. The only drawing I have found of the inside of the earlier cover shows one seal only and nothing where the later seal on the crankshaft would be. So am I right to presume that I can use the newer timing cover on the older engine without any problems ( and just disconnect the Switch ) ? And if so what is the red warning light on the '68 T100R indicate ? From what I can see the '68 still had the red warning light. Underneath the pressure release valve there is a plug which is where I can now test the PSI ?

#97018 - 07/28/06 3:02 am Re: oil pressure warning light remains on  
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by petejohno:
So am I right to presume that I can use the newer timing cover on the older engine without any problems
'Fraid not - from '68 to '69 Triumph changed a lot of the 500 bottom end - different crank, main bearings, crankcases and how the oil was fed to the crank. You need a '68 (or earlier) timing cover.

Hth.

Regards,

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