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electronic ignition choices #95460
07/06/06 2:59 pm
07/06/06 2:59 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Midwest
clat Offline OP
BritBike Forum
clat  Offline OP
BritBike Forum
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 8
Midwest
Another question for those who know. I didn't see alot of info in the forum (hardly any) on the Pazon electronic ignition system. Does anyone know anything about or have any experience with the Pazon ignition? Also, what is preferable from a reliability and performance standpoint: Lucas Rita (if you can find them), Boyer Bransden, or Pazon? Can anyone enlighten me? Thank you.

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Re: electronic ignition choices #95461
07/06/06 3:09 pm
07/06/06 3:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
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norbsa48503  Offline
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Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: electronic ignition choices #95462
07/06/06 3:29 pm
07/06/06 3:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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Phatt Bob  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Did Dynodave ever finish the test? Would be interested to see an advance curve, as there isn't one on the PAZON site that I can find.

Cheers

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: electronic ignition choices #95463
07/06/06 3:34 pm
07/06/06 3:34 pm
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
norbsa48503 Offline
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norbsa48503  Offline
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Posts: 1,956
Flint,Mich
The plodded data comes in as as PDF file after clicking on the words install instrucctions on the site. It's all done advancing at 4000 instead of 5000. WishI knew why.


norbsa
1960 TR6
1963 Super Rocket
1965 650 Star
1966 441
1968 Thunderbolt
1969 Twinkle 250
1972 Fastback
1974 Roadster
1970 S.S
Way too many BSA's not named
http://decentcycles.com
Re: electronic ignition choices #95464
07/07/06 12:19 am
07/07/06 12:19 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,957
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
BritBike Forum member
Stuart  Online Content
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S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,957
Scotland
Hi,

Quote:
Originally posted by clat:
I didn't see alot of info in the forum (hardly any) on the Pazon electronic ignition system.
Probably because Pazon hasn't been around very long?

Quote:
Originally posted by clat:
what is preferable from a reliability and performance standpoint: Lucas Rita (if you can find them), Boyer Bransden,
Ime, of those two, Rita by a loo-o-ong way. Do a search of any old bike forum with keywords like 'Boyer' and 'Rita' and note the post count for each; then, if you analyse post contents, you'll find most 'Boyer' threads detail problems while most 'Rita' posts just say how reliable the thing is.

As for finding 'em, be aware that:-

1. To all intents and purposes, any Rita amp. (the only bit that's no longer available new) will fit any bike; it's the trigger unit and reluctor (if nowhere else, available from Mistral Engineering in GB) that modify the Rita 'advance' curve for a particular engine.

2. Even if a Rita amp. you find doesn't work, Mistral offer an exchange service if the dud amp. can be fixed.

Finally, another new one is the Trispark, developed by an Australian T160 owner. You'll find a lot of links on Triples On Line (www.triplesonline.com/forum and Search with the keyword 'Trispark') but, afaik, it'll fit any bike.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: electronic ignition choices #95465
07/07/06 2:08 am
07/07/06 2:08 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
Seing that the principals at Pazon are ex-Boyer I cannot see that their units would be any less reliable than the ones they designed and manufactured while they worked for Boyer. In my dealings with Andy while he was with Boyer, now with Pazon, he was extremely helpful. He did most of the early design work on the Boyer Micro-Power units.

Now the Rita units are a very good product, but they are not without their own little problems. Timing being one. Unlike the Boyer trigger which fires both cylinders at exactly the same time it is posible for the Rita to trigger the cylinders (I didn't mean to say: coils) several degrees apart. This can be avoided by careful installation of the reluctor in the camshaft so that it doesn't wobble.

After a rather rocky introduction in the 1979 Triumph, where the wiring connection was in the rear wheel water spray, Rita proved it self quite reliable in new motorcycles designed to run with an electronic ignition: increased alternator output, proper grounds, etc., although the loose rivet on the igntion switch, sulphated battery, white plastic kill button connector going high resistance, and the kill button contacts corroding, or coil failure still left more than its fair share of Rita controlled motorcycles by the side of the road. How many times have I seen Rita fitted motorcycles with the spark plug laying on the head sparking away all by itself.

Dare say, that if Rita: (I can hear the Rita fans circling now... go slow Stuart I am an old man):
1 Had as many units in service as Boyer (Betwen JRC and myself we figure we have sold over 100,000 units in the USA since 1985).
2 Were fitted to 40 year old motorcycles with a demagnetized alternator rotor, 75 watt quartz head lamp bulb, coils that have been squeezed by over tightened clamps, home made wiring harness made from #22 guage wire, inadequate grounds, zener diodes that have gone open or who's control voltage is very high or low, the wiring connections are all corroded, batteries that are grounded to the rubber insulated battery box, rectifiers that have failed and place an AC ripple over the DC voltage supply, with an ignition switch with loose rivets holding the male terminals on, the kill button is corroded, the battery is sulphated, the frame is powder coated and the unit was installed by someone who has trouble understanding which way to turn the motor to find 38 degrees BTDC.

Oh someone mentioned other brands... We do BMW Boyer's also... single biggest problems BLAMED on the BMW Boyer unit... worn out starter motor bushings causing the starter motor to draw nearly double the current which draws battery voltage below what even a Rita will fire. Oh, what's to blame ? The Boyer of course.
3. I would bet that a lot of internet sites would be just as full of "Rita" threads detailing a never ending list of problems.

Yes we did stock and sell Rita ignition kits, but the volume was close to 100 to 1 as compared to Boyer sales. Price is a big factor. The 5 year warranty didn't hurt.

Although you can be a fan of either unit, both require the same thing a supply of good clean electricity.
2c
john


Re: electronic ignition choices #95466
07/08/06 3:20 am
07/08/06 3:20 am
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 429
New York
gs750 Offline
BritBike Forum member
gs750  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 429
New York
EVRYTHING that John said!

I just couldn't spit it out so quickly or as elegantly.

Boyer also has The Best customer service in the market.

email me for details.


1971 Triumph T100C
1974 Honda XL350
1982 Suzuki GS750T
2000 Honda VFR800FI
Re: electronic ignition choices #95467
07/08/06 5:57 pm
07/08/06 5:57 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,606
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
D
dave jones Offline
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dave jones  Offline
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D
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,606
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I like the idea of the Piranha/ Newtronics/ something else now? optically triggered unit that uses the original auto advance, in a similar fashion to the Dyna S unit for Moto Guzzis. It would be no good on a bike that requires a degree disc on the cam for strobing because the light would make it malfunction during tuning, but would be good on the later bikes. I like the idea of not having to strobe at 6500 rpm (rita). Is this not practically full revs? Why do you need an advance curve like that on a Triumph 650? If you open the throttle to full in too low a gear, the bike will pink whatever you are using!

Re: electronic ignition choices #95468
07/09/06 1:02 am
07/09/06 1:02 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 135
Florida
tech 108 Offline
BritBike Forum
tech 108  Offline
BritBike Forum
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 135
Florida
After a battle of reliability and never being able to time a Boyer system to my satisfaction, I switched over to a Pazon system and all my troubles went away in about a one hour installation. Loved the twelve pages of instructiona and the proper wiring schematic in color!! Tuning tips that work?? All my hats off to Pazon, Boyer still has something to learn about their loss. To Dynodave, you are still welcome to test my old Boyer unit, Send mailing address, I will drop it off while my motor is running great with the Pazon.

Re: electronic ignition choices #95469
07/13/06 2:16 pm
07/13/06 2:16 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
R
rolandgttuning Offline
BritBike Forum
rolandgttuning  Offline
BritBike Forum
R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
Yes I too fitted a Boyer Mk3 to my freshly rebuilt T150V. (together with the required switch to 6v coils) The spark was poor and it just kept 'holding back' at wide throttle openings. After alot of checks & changes to jetting/plugs/timing etc ,I bought the Pazon digital. It is more expensive but includes miniture coils, leads & caps too. Instantly all my troubles were gone. Hats off to Andy at Pazon; a top quality product,excellent instructions & good support. IMO Boyer analogue with 6 volt coils on a Trident is 10 times worse than points.
Best Regards Roland GTT

Re: electronic ignition choices #95470
07/13/06 2:30 pm
07/13/06 2:30 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,145
Indy
Vox Teardrop Offline
BritBike Forum member
Vox Teardrop  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,145
Indy
Boyer just need better instructions. They need big color photographs and better explanations.


95' Triumph Speed Triple
72' Triumph T120
64' BSA Lightning Rocket
Re: electronic ignition choices #95471
07/13/06 3:06 pm
07/13/06 3:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

Life member
JubeePrince  Offline

Life member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,409
Back on the mainland!
Quote:
Originally posted by John Healy:

Although you can be a fan of either unit, both require the same thing a supply of good clean electricity.
2c
john
This seems to me to be the crux of the issue.....if your wiring and charging system is not in good working order, nothing will work, no matter what choice you make...

My 2c

Steve Prince


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: electronic ignition choices #95472
07/13/06 6:58 pm
07/13/06 6:58 pm
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
A
andy@pazonignitions Offline

BritBike Forum member
andy@pazonignitions  Offline

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A
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
New Zealand
Hi fellow BritBikers,
We would just like to comment on the earlier post from John Healy.

Yes, my wife and I were the management and technical team for Boyer-Bransden.
It is true that I worked on the digital ignition systems for & on behalf of Boyer-Bransden, but this was on the software side only. I had to work with the hardware designed by Ernie Bransden and I had no input on that side of things. I was restricted by the designs given to me. This is one of the reasons why we decided to leave the company, because technology is always moving forward but we felt that the corporate bs at Boyer was stifling creativity. So, it would be true to say that we did not 'design & manufacture' the Boyer Micro-Power (or Micro-Digital) ignition. The Boyer Micro-Digital & Micro-Power ignitions are essentially a MK3 design with a microcontroller ('chip') added in. Therefore this is not a fully digital design. Our Smart-Fire ignition system uses cutting-edge technology and is a fully digital system throughout, from trigger, to module through to the ignition coil. Comparing our system to the Boyer Micro-Power is a bit like comparing chalk & cheese or north & south.

We also offer our Sure-Fire ignition systems, which are an upgrade on the MK3 in a number of areas.

We hope this sets the record straight.

Regards,

Andy & Debbie
PAZON IGNITIONS


Andy Perkins
Pazon Ignitions Ltd.
http://www.pazon.com
Re: electronic ignition choices #95473
07/13/06 7:11 pm
07/13/06 7:11 pm
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,115
Kansas
kboyd Offline
BritBike Forum member
kboyd  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,115
Kansas
Quote:
Originally posted by rolandgttuning:
Yes I too fitted a Boyer Mk3 to my freshly rebuilt T150V. (together with the required switch to 6v coils) The spark was poor and it just kept 'holding back' at wide throttle openings. After alot of checks & changes to jetting/plugs/timing etc ,I bought the Pazon digital. It is more expensive but includes miniture coils, leads & caps too. Instantly all my troubles were gone. Hats off to Andy at Pazon; a top quality product,excellent instructions & good support. IMO Boyer analogue with 6 volt coils on a Trident is 10 times worse than points.
Best Regards Roland GTT
Thanks for posting this... my neighbor has been going through hell with his Trident, before and after going to Boyer. Then blamed carbs and sprung for the Mikuni kit. Then ended up springing for the super pricey German coils. Still doesn't run like it should at lower revs, only wide open is good.... I'll point him towards Pazon...

Thanks,
Kyle


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
1979 Powroll Honda XR250 "Dallas Baker" flattracker
1975 XL350 project bike
Re: electronic ignition choices #95474
07/14/06 7:47 am
07/14/06 7:47 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
BritBike Forum member
Tiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Instantly all my troubles were gone.

Did you ensure first that the wiring loom [including ignition switch] was in good condition and the engine adequately earthed ?

Apologies if offence taken but chasing problems with Amals and having someone else cure them with a different EI makes you a lightweight.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: electronic ignition choices #95475
07/14/06 8:21 am
07/14/06 8:21 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
R
rolandgttuning Offline
BritBike Forum
rolandgttuning  Offline
BritBike Forum
R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
Tiger This bike is immaculate as I have just restored it. Charging system is perfect, battery new & earths tight & clean (paint removed). The bike ran fine on points so I suspected the Boyer + 6v German coil combo all along. However I did make various other changes (leads,plugs HT leads jetting etc) to try and cure first. As soon as the Boyer went on it was harder to start, tickover couldnt be adjusted low, it held back,and earthing the plug to the head revealed a much poorer than stock spark quality. Timing was set using our mains powered Xenon strobe.
Best Regards Roland GT Tuning

Re: electronic ignition choices #95476
07/14/06 10:06 am
07/14/06 10:06 am
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Tiger Offline
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Tiger  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,429
Melbourne Australia
Apoligies Roland but it usually does not work that way.
If I had a rebuilt engine and yellow spark from a new EI I would not chase carbs or timing, the Boyer is a good product and as such should be defended by satisfied users.
Boyer has an excellent reputation and the fact that your criticism makes no mention of any contact with the manufacturer, nor reference to any remedial action attempted, seems odd.

"Instantly all my problems were gone" sounds like an advertisement for womens drugs.


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
Re: electronic ignition choices #95477
07/14/06 10:52 am
07/14/06 10:52 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
R
rolandgttuning Offline
BritBike Forum
rolandgttuning  Offline
BritBike Forum
R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
Hi tiger, I did question both with Boyer & the supplying dealer the use of 6volt coils wired in series used on this system. In effect they only get 4 volts each, Im no electronics expert (I know a bit) but I felt even before fitting that this must compromise spark quality somewhat. Im not saying that all Boyer systems are no good but I bought this Trident system to improve ignition quality not make it worse. The stock system (with no other changes) worked fine as did the Pazon I finally fitted. That points to a flaw in the Boyer + 6volt coil combo that I payed good money for. The fact that 4 volt coils are no longer available and you have to use 6 volt ones with only 4v going in them should mean this Trident Boyer system is either re-designed to give sparks at least as fat as stock or withdrawn from the market. A borderline system that is only ok for pottering around is no good to me.
Regards Roland GT Tuning

Re: electronic ignition choices #95478
07/14/06 12:51 pm
07/14/06 12:51 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
posted July 14, 2006 04:21                       
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiger This bike is immaculate as I have just restored it.

One of my first rules, when something happens to a motor that I have worked on is: "What did I do."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that 4 volt coils are no longer available

That's not true we have them in stock (3 volt PVL). Boyer does not supply the coils... that's your choice! If you choose to use 6 volt coils it is your decision, not Ernie's
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
them should mean this Trident Boyer system is either re-designed to give sparks at least as fat as stock or withdrawn from the market.

This begs the question

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im no electronics expert (I know a bit)

I can see that
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roland:
The fact that the bike ran with points is no indication that it will run at all with an electronic ignition. Boyer, Pazon, Rita, what have you.

Now, infering that this is an inherit problem in the Boyer product is a bit nieve. History tells me quite a different story.

Now, as Andy (Pazon) humbly indicated there has been a lot of improvements in ignition technology since Ernie first designed his ignitions.

But with each improvement comes the increasing need to upgrade the bikes electrical system. Zener diodes that would not effect a points ignition when they go open or out of range, either too high or to low, rectifiers that leak AC current over the DC output, grounds that aren't grounds at all, engines that are insulated from ground by powder coating, RF energy inducing false triggers, switches that are high resistance, or batteries that are sulphated have little or no effect on points ignitions.

One of the common mistakes made by Trident owners installing a Boyer ignition, is using the stock points wiring to connect the pick-up plate to the control box. The three wires that connected the points to the coils runs inside the harness parallel with the leads from the alternator. The problems with doing this is well documented in all the Boyer literature. This will induce the symptoms you describe.

John...


Re: electronic ignition choices #95479
07/14/06 2:11 pm
07/14/06 2:11 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
R
rolandgttuning Offline
BritBike Forum
rolandgttuning  Offline
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R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
John, sorry but nowhere in the instructions does it say I HAVE to upgrade the electrical system. Nowhere does it say I HAVE use 3 or 4v coils (I cant locate them from our UK dealers)It clearly states use 6v coils. Nowhere in the instructions does it say use a seperate new loom down to the pickup,it clearly states using 2 of the 3 wires from the original 3. This bike runs fine with another brand of electronic ignition (Pazon)without having to do /buy any of the things you mention.And my T140v from 25 years ago ran 100% with the Pirahna electronic ignition I put on that.

Re: electronic ignition choices #95480
07/14/06 3:21 pm
07/14/06 3:21 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,157
Boston, Massachusetts
Roland:
I am sorry that you have experienced a problem! In no way am I saying you didn't have a problem. I would be nieve to say that. Something was clearly wrong... if you had sent the box back to Boyer they would have tested it and made recomendations as to what you should look for on the motorcycle. I even think Andy would agree, that Ernie was very liberal wih his warranty policy.

But the fact, for what ever reason, that you had a problem does not negate the experience of many thousands of people running the Boyer MKIII, Micro-Digital and Micro-Power (it uses the little coils you talk about) on Triumph/BSA triples. Nearly all with 6 volt coils. Many of these in competiton with much greater requirements from the ignition than a street bike. Is there a better way?... time will prove this.

As with a lot of problems, it is usually better to work with a mark specialist. This typically starts with the purchase of the product itself. This is especially true with the Triumph/BSA triple. There have been a lot of bits made for the triple, in the after marke in the seventies and eightiest, that are still around in great quantities and have not proved to be servicable.

Usually the mark specialist has already experienced the problem and can offer timely advice. Many of these problems are fixed in the field, through mark specialsts or forums like this, and never get presented to the technical specialist or designer as a problem.

Now, depending upon the period you bought the kit, technical advice at Boyer was provided by Andy. (Though it could have been Ernie himself, who has been in semi-retiremen for the past several years). As I stated above, I would not expect any less from Andy in the way of customer support, now that he runs his own company, than the excellent advice and service he has given me when I had a problem with a Boyer product.
john


Re: electronic ignition choices #95481
07/14/06 3:57 pm
07/14/06 3:57 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
R
rolandgttuning Offline
BritBike Forum
rolandgttuning  Offline
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R
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 12
Blandford, dorset ,UK
John, TBF the guy I spoke at to Boyer was helpful & my dealer here in the UK gave me refund on the coils & Boyer no problem. ( BTW the coils were standard size cylinder shape german made 6v coils),I just feel the product (analogue) in this apllication (T150v) is not all its cracked up to be. Its no big deal,the bikes fine now.This bike is actually very quick,I had a Yamaha R1 for a while , its not that quick but very impressive none the less.
Regards Roland GTT


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