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#91241 - 04/27/06 6:41 pm one pushrod not moving?  
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internetay Offline
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Yardley,PA
i was riding today and then all of the sudden one of the valves started making alot of noise then it stopped and the bike started running on one cylinder.

i got the bike home and took off the valve covers. the intake rocker on the left side isnt moving when i turn the engine over. so i look further and the pushrod does not move up or down with the motor.

what could cause this?

why me jesus?


1972 Triumph T-120V
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#91242 - 04/27/06 7:01 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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T140V-Rich Offline
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The pushrods themselves have a fairly deep cup to ride on. I imagine if the valves were EXTREMELY loose it could jump off.

There's been a few quirks you're dealing with there, bud. I'd recommend going through the bike thoroughly before there's a safety issue that crops up.

Did the PO say this was a rider or it'd been sitting up for a while?

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91243 - 04/27/06 7:56 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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internetay Offline
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Yardley,PA
the previous owner said that he didnt ride it that much.

i changed all of the fluids and adjusted everything that i could when i first got it.

what i dont understand is the pusrod must have slipped off of the cam or broke because the rocker can move up and down about an inch and the pushrod is completely stationary when the motor turns over.


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91244 - 04/27/06 8:29 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Is the pushrod still in contact with the rocker arm? If it's bent or broken, it should be free of the rocker arm at this point (since it's not moving with motor).

These are made of some pretty tough alloys. Couldn't see one being broken, but I have bent one once during a re-installation.

Never had one slip off the cam, though. It ain't fun but pulling the rocker covers to get a glance down the pushrod tubes may be in order, see what's happened.

Just thinking of what I'd do in similar situs.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91245 - 04/27/06 8:36 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Yardley,PA
no, the pushrod is not in contact with the rocker arm as i can move the rocker as far down as the valve and high enough to where it hits the rocker housing, so it definatley is not in contact with the pushrod. i cant really see but i think the pushrod is lower than it should be being that i can move the rocker so freely up and down.

what is entailed in removing the rocker covers as that is my only logical next step?


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91246 - 04/27/06 9:03 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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I recommended the rocker covers first b/c you won't be dealing with the head yet.

There are ...I can see them in my mind, but can't count how many, ..."several" bolts (7/16ths, 11mm, on mine) that will be removed topside and two underneath. But get some gasket material or have a spare gasket. That gasket between the head and rocker cover often tears up on removal of the rocker cover.

With this done, you can extract the pushrod itself and see if it's suffered any damage. If it doesn't look like a boomerang, rolling the pushrod on a known straight glass pane can show you any damage if it's not obvious.

Hope this helps.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91247 - 04/27/06 11:46 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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internetay Offline
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Yardley,PA
Rich, you have been alot of help I appreciate it.

I guess im gonna hafta order new gaskets and remove the rocker cover.Do i need to remove the gastank to get to some of the bolts on the top? It looks a little tight up there.


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91248 - 04/28/06 1:39 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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It does help to have the tank off to get at these bolts.

My tank is one center bolt beneath the name plate and disconnect the gas taps. Lifts right off. Not sure which tank you have. I'm guessing the slim tank, which may have a support strap beneath the front meaning two more bolts.

Looking at my intake rocker box, there's two 7/16ths bolts, two 1/2 bolts, an engine support bracket nut and the two 7/16ths nuts underneath the carb side of the rocker box.

Once you get the cover off (and tank), you can see into the pushrod tube.

If nothing appears amiss, use the known good pushrod (or potentially "bad" one, doesn't matter at this point) to locate the questionable cam. With spark plugs out, turn the motor over to make sure the cam is functioning as it should be.

Thinking about it, before I removed the cover and just for my own knowledge, I'd attempt to determine how loose the working valve is. If it appears to be more than the manual's .06 loose you may have found your reason for the malfunctioning side's going AWOL. But it'd have to be a lot more than .06, really.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91249 - 04/28/06 2:04 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Rich, Check your rocker box. There are three nuts on the bottom. One probably came out with the stud.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
#91250 - 04/28/06 2:57 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Good catch, John. I forgot about the little booger in the middle. I haven't been under there since a rebuild six years ago.

Make that THREE 7/16ths nuts underneath the rocker boxes.

I just think I'll mosey out to the shed and check the torque on some rocker box nuts. smile

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91251 - 04/28/06 4:30 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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RF Whatley Online content
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North Georgia, USA
Richard -
When newbies build these engines, sometimes the push rods aren't seated on the lifters correctly. There are several ways that the valves can work fine, but not be seated properly.

What you'll proabably find when you remove that rocker box is 2 very nearly destroyed push rods. Not riding on the tappet really eats them alive.

You should be able to buy 2 new PRs and a gasket and get right back on the road. I doubt you really broke anything serious.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#91252 - 04/28/06 6:42 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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If the push rods were originally correctly installed then perhaps consider a valve problem such as sticking maybe. A valve hanging up for a split second would allow the clearance necessary for push rod to disengage from rocker arm or if it stuck closed it would bend push rod again creating clearnce and possible disengagement..I realize our guides and valves usually get loose not tight but if you find nothing else it would be worth considering... 2c Mark

#91253 - 04/28/06 2:04 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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just to clear things up, the reason the rocker is not moving is becuase the pushrod is not moving.

so its not that the rocker disengaged from the pushrod its that the pushrod is disengaged from the cam or whatnot.

im gonna take the rocker covers off today if i have time, to see what the deal is. Im kinda scared as to what i will find.


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91254 - 04/28/06 3:46 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Yes, to your question. It seems the pushrod has come off the cam tappet in the bottom of the pushrod tube.

Been a while since I've been down into my engine that far, but I am thinking worse case scenario is that you've chipped the pushrod end resulting in a piece of metal in the bottom of your PR tube.

Not a big deal other than eating up a Saturday taking the carbs, rocker covers and head off to remove the PR tube to get at the errant piece.

All of that work may be saved, however, if you can fish the piece out with a clothes hanger end capped with tape or something.

Fingers are crossed that everything is intact on the pushrods when they come out.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91255 - 04/28/06 4:31 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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If when you remove the not-moving pushrod it has a piece of the cup broken off I'd suggest trying one of those magnetic pickup tools to fish it out. I think the caps are steel while the rods are alloy. (could be wrong, don't remember) You can get them at any hardware/building supply store; modern ones use really strong (and often tiny) magnets, and may have telescoping or flexible shafts on them to make getting into small spaces easier. It may help avoid a lot of tear-down and reassembly. (I use mine to retrieve those dropped washers and nuts that land on the frame in unreachable places just to annoy me)
On the other hand, since the bike is new to you, you may want to think of it as an opportunity (read excuse) to take the top off and check out the condition of the heads,valves,bores,piston-tops etc, as well as gaining a lot of the basic how-to on your bike/engine that you will need in the future. It may save a more costly repair later if you find something is starting to go south now, before you've put many more miles on it.

#91256 - 04/28/06 5:58 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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I don't see how he's ever going to put the pushrod back into place (assuming nothing's broken) unless he removes the head, so what's the point of dicking around with magnets? Pull the head, which has to be done when you pull the rocker boxes, or you'll warp the head since their bolts are four of the inner head bolts. I suppose you could come up with a lever arrangement to compress the valve spring and get enough clearance with the adjuster backed off to pop the pushrod back in, but the fact that this happened at all tells me a complete top end inspection is in order.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#91257 - 04/28/06 7:54 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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i took the rocker box off and alls that happened was the pushrod fell off of the tappet on the cam i repositioned it and turned the motor over and it moves! nothing looks remotely broken at all. so i need to order the gaskets adjust the valves and get it back together. thanks to everyone for their help.

now whats this about when you take off the rocker cover it warps the head???


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91258 - 04/28/06 8:20 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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shel Online content
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Quote:
Originally posted by internetay:
i took the rocker box off and alls that happened was the pushrod fell off of the tappet on the cam i repositioned it and turned the motor over and it moves! nothing looks remotely broken at all. so i need to order the gaskets adjust the valves and get it back together. thanks to everyone for their help.

now whats this about when you take off the rocker cover it warps the head???
it won't warp the head. the two large rocker box bolts thread into the inner head bolts, when installing the rockerbox just snug these bolts up, don't overtighten and you'll be fine.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
#91259 - 04/28/06 8:29 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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perfect, i got worried there for a minute!


1972 Triumph T-120V
#91260 - 04/28/06 8:50 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Doubtful the head could get warped as Shel said. The bolts thread into the inner head bolts, which won't loosen up the head itself when the rockers come off.

Glad to hear the solution sounds so close. Check the PRs for straightness.

And while you're there, I'd remove the rocker covers for the exhaust and check the valve clearances. Only another 20 minutes or so.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
#91261 - 04/28/06 9:47 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Richard -
You're sure neither the bottom of the aluminum rod or the steel cup sustained any damage? Are the end cups on tight?

I agree with RH. I'd not pull the head, but rather fish for any steel/ iron chips with a magnet. Maybe compressed air. Any aluminum was generated by rubbing, so there will only be dust in the oil, no chunks.

When re-assembling what you want to do is fill the bottom cups with grease and then using a bright light, seat the push rods onto the tappets. You can tell they are seated because they will spin very freely. The grease will keep the PR from jumping off the bottom end while you fit the rocker box to the top end.

This is important: After the PRs are seated, but before the rocker box goes on, slowly turn the crank. There is a place on the cam for about 10 degrees where both lobes are horizontal and both tappets are down. Check to make sure that both the tops of the PRs come up level at that point. This would be a good check to insure that the stellite is still on the bottom of the tappet.

I've never heard of a push rod simply jumping off the tappet for fun. Something had to have happened. Maybe the PO just did a poor top end job, maybe the last valve adjust was done incorrectly, maybe you've had a serious mechanical failure. I'm not for tearing into the engine to explore. But I am for a little serious investigation before putting it back on the road. That 15 minutes could save you hundreds of $.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#91262 - 04/28/06 10:20 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Obviously I've mistaken the model under question here, but I don't see it posted, so I was cautiously assuming it was the older style with head bolts through the rocker boxes. Sorry for the confusion, but posting the model right from the start is recommended to get appropriate replies.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#91263 - 04/29/06 3:59 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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Internetay,
I'm with RFW on this one. Triumph pushrods do not have the clearance to jump off the rocker ball or cam follower unless either they weren't on to start with from poor assy. or something happened as mentioned in my earlier post. What I hadn't thought of was RFWs suggestion that the stellite face may have fallen off your cam follower, they are brazed on and could come off I suppose. Look at how deep the cup is on the ends of your pushrods, 1/8" or more. The wildest cams only have .010" clearance, no way under normal running conditions can the pushrod gain the clearance required to come off. Even when the cups come loose, you'll only hear it ticking as there isn't room for it to slip up and off the pushrod shaft. Had you recently adjusted your valves by any chance? Maybe there is another clue missing here. Mark

#91264 - 04/29/06 8:17 am Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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If you set valve clearances by referencing the base circle of the cam across the inlets / exhausts rather than inlet / exhaust on the same cylinder bad things like jumped pushrods happen.
Please do not ask how I know this, I will refuse to tell for fear of appearing to be a dunce. laugh


1969 TR6R
7.62 x 51 is not a maths puzzle.
#91265 - 04/29/06 12:02 pm Re: one pushrod not moving?  
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RF Whatley Online content
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Tiger -
I want my dunce cap back! laugh


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
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