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Failed crank feed oil seal #90846 04/19/06 5:34 pm
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RossP Offline OP
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Hello folks,

I've had the oil seal fail on my late 500 unit motor (end fed crank). It was a new seal, probably failed soon/immediately after fitting and I ran the bike for about 5 miles.

Has anyone had experience of this seal failing and can offer any comments on why they might fail? What are the chances of the main bearings being ok having run on low oil pressure? Or am I just kidding myself and I'd better just get on with pulling it all apart (again!)

cheers
Ross

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Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90847 04/19/06 6:19 pm
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kommando Offline
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Not had my own experience but the NOC Commando notes mentions an oil pump seal going which gives the same effect, the big end bearings do get a pressure feed even with no oil pressure, centifrugral forces generated by the spinning crank force the oil out to the big ends. It reckons that would be a respectable pressure as long as oil was swamping the crank feed end. I would have thought that with luck 5 miles would not have had too much effect, the oil was there it was just not being forced in. Your main bearings being ball and/or roller will be unaffected.

Oh and they fail because of manufacturing moving the the far-east and the quality stds not being the same yet, this is for cost saving but only the big boys benefit, buyers of one or two seals carry on paying the old price.

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90848 04/19/06 7:05 pm
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RossP Offline OP
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Quote
Your main bearings being ball and/or roller will be unaffected.
Yes of course, that was my typo, meant to say big ends!

The failed seal is of a diferent make to the previous one (SDA?) and I have to say it doesn't really look up to the job compared to the old one (easy to say in hindsight!), slightly larger internal diameter too, although that could just be post-failure.

Thanks for the comments.
Ross

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90849 04/19/06 7:15 pm
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kboyd Offline
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Ross,
There has just recently been talk of this seal on the Dayt-owners forum as well. (Or maybe you brought it up there) It was primarily about getting it oriented the correct way. Just a thought that if it was inverted the oil pressure would blow by instead of sealing properly.

Sorry to hear about your mainshaft troubles on the hillclimb too!

Good luck,
Kyle


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
2005 CRF450 flattracker (w/Athena 490 big bore)
2002 Yamaha TTR250 (woods/hare scramble)
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90850 04/19/06 7:18 pm
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kboyd Offline
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My only horrible experience with low oil pressure ended in siezure after running about two minutes at a pretty fast idle! I'd say if they feel ok then give 'em a try... but that's just me!

Kyle


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
2005 CRF450 flattracker (w/Athena 490 big bore)
2002 Yamaha TTR250 (woods/hare scramble)
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90851 04/19/06 9:05 pm
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RossP Offline OP
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Kyle

This is on the same bike that locked up the mainshaft, I seem to be into a bit of a 'fix one problem to find another' cycle at the moment.

I think I'm with you on the that if it seems ok just run with it. There was no indication of a problem in performance, just obviously too much oil suddenley blowing out of the breather I've got plumbed into the timing cover.

The only thing in the back of my mind is that most of those 5 miles were run at well over 8000rpm wink Still I suppose at least that means there was plenty of oil flow from the pump.

Ross

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90852 04/19/06 11:55 pm
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John Healy Online Content
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Quote
Originally posted by John Healy:
[Linked Image]
I wish this was a new problem, but it has been with us for more than twenty years.

Kommando is right that production of these seals has moved to the far-east, but it is not the only problem. I think if you check, all of the seals available are made in the far east, including the one I prefer: Pioneer brand (which was o.e.m. to Triumph).

I made the tool above when I first started using Morgo rotary pumps, as they can easily invert a seal if you are not careful. I would check all of the brands I could get my hands on and finally settled on Pioneer. They will typically hold 50% more pressure than the best competitor.

We have tested some seals that would invert with less than 100 pounds of pressure.

Now, sometimes it is not just the seals fault. There can be other factors that can push the seal beyond its limits:

a. Oil that has a viscosity greater than was specified by Triumph for a given season of the year will strain the seal beyond its limits, especially at start up. Unless you have a good reason, and fully understand what you are doing, using oil with a viscosity heavier than Triumph recommended can cause seal and other problems.
b. A oil pressure relief valve that is sticky or stuck closed.
c. A crankshaft whose end has been turned undersize.
d. Too little rod bearing clearance.
e. Too little side clearance on the rod.
f. Using a Morgo rotary pump without making the required modifications AND increasing the clearance on the rod bearing shells.
h. putting the seal in backwards.
i. cutting the seal's lip when the timing cover is offered to the motor.
j. Blocking the oil passage to the tappets, as you do when you install a Morgo long rod 750 cylinder and don't make accomidations for the oil that was by-passed to the tappets. Typically doesn't happen by itself, but in combination with one of the other things on this list.
k. Blocking of one of the oil pressure by-pass holes. i.e blocking the oil hole from the presure relief valve so that you can run a breather off the timing cover without making accomidations to redirect the oil out of the pressue relief cavity.
l. Some combination of the above.
m. I am sure I am forgetting something!

In my experience you have a 50/50 chance of damaging the motor when the seal fails. It all depends on a lot of factors. I can only relate to you that people who race Tridents (albiet, different oiling system) instruct the rider to stop if the oil pressure falls below 70 pounds.

Typically, when the pressure falls in a Trident it is telling the mechanic that the center mains are begining to wear, which will starve the rod bearings and lead to ruining some very expensive parts. When your seal inverts you are starving the rod bearings in a twin.

SDA stands for Sung DA a Taiwanese seal manufacturer. I haven't tested one lately, but the last ones I tested inverted at about 150 - 160 pounds cold, and less once I heated up the aluminum body of the tool. The typical Pioneer inverts at over 200 pounds.

2c
john
In all fairness I must tell you that I sell Pioneer seals, but those that know me will tell you that I don't push any of my products unless I believe there is a compelling reason to do so. So you will never see me promote a product I sell in Vintage Bike, this site or in any TIOC information.


Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90853 04/20/06 1:43 am
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dogge Offline
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This is realy scary..
I have bought the SDA seals to..
well.. need to find the Pioneer seals then..
Do you sell seals to Sweden John..=)

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90854 04/20/06 5:57 am
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kommando Offline
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8000 rpm is good perversly, loads of centifugal forces equals good oil pressure. With a new oil seal fitted before starting check for slivers of aluminium in the sump, if none start bike and ride, worn big ends give a knocking sound underload, even if you have no suspect noises check sump again for slivers of aluminium (bearing lining material).

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90855 04/20/06 1:13 pm
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gs750 Offline
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kboyd
Quote
.....Dayt-owners forum as well.
Where is this wondrous place?


1971 Triumph T100C
1974 Honda XL350
1982 Suzuki GS750T
2000 Honda VFR800FI
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90856 04/20/06 2:29 pm
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kboyd Offline
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GS750,
It's just another group that is specific to the Triumph 500's and 350's. Not near as big as the Britbike forum, but helpful too... Here's a link to where you can sign up if you want:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/TriumphDayt-owners/?yguid=171267703

Ross,
Being new to Triumphs when I got my 500, I was a bit ignorant. I rode the heck out of the bike, rebuilt/replaced/upgraded many parts, tuned the carb, rebuilt the head, and many other things. All the while getting more oil than I should have coming out of the breather tube. Finally I looked in to why I may be getting too much oil and discovered that the oil pressure regulator had no spring or plunger in it! Something I probably should have checked long ago as standard practice on a new-to-me bike... Something that would have showed right away if it were set up as a Daytona instead of a "C" model. You live and learn I guess.... but so far the big ends are doing ok.. I hope!
When I get my other motor finished I would like to tear this one back down and go through it, now that I've learned a bit more about the Triumph twin motors.

Thanks John for the oil seal info.

Good luck,
Kyle


Kyle#44x

1969 T100R Daytona
2005 CRF450 flattracker (w/Athena 490 big bore)
2002 Yamaha TTR250 (woods/hare scramble)
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90857 04/20/06 8:52 pm
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RossP Offline OP
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As ever I'm very grateful for all you're input folks!

I've managed to get hold of a Pioneer seal (PW = Pioneer Weston, right?) so I'll fit that and fire it up and see how we go.

cheers
Ross

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90858 04/21/06 5:04 pm
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RF Whatley Offline
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John -
Great pic. Great tool. But I simply must know... who does your nails?


laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90859 04/21/06 6:27 pm
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dave jones Offline
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I had an SDA crank feed seal split. I don't know how many miles I did after but the big ends had no play when I checked and have been fine for thousands of miles since. I checked it because the engine had developed a knock which turned out to be the drive side main instead! Your engine, I'm sure, will be ok after 5 miles. I took John's advice and fitted the Pioneer Weston type (marked PW) and have had no more problems.

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90860 04/21/06 7:48 pm
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cycarmark Offline
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While checking oil pressure on my A65 BSA, I decided to do the same on the '68 TR6C and found low oil pressure. The GACO seal had inverted, how long ago I do not know, but the new Pioneer seal seems to be doing fine. I even made the mistake of running straight 50 weight in the bike this winter (north Florida), but the seal made it through that. I'm using the 20w50 now.

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90861 04/21/06 10:07 pm
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John Healy Online Content
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RF Whatley:
<strong> John -
Great pic. Great tool. But I simply must know... who does your nails?


beerchug
john


Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90862 07/18/06 11:35 am
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Vesku Offline
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Hi,
I'm new one here.

Just to report another failed SDA cranck oil seal on my TR6R . Seal lasted no longer than 100 miles. Luckily I have oil pressure gauge on board so no furher damage was caused.

Vesku

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90863 07/18/06 6:48 pm
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dave jones Offline
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I got my PW seals from Wilemans Motors here in the UK. Just insist on having these ones.
Dave

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal #90864 02/18/07 5:21 pm
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steve sage Offline
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I know it's here somewhere, but it eludes me.
Can someone please provide the part number (and maybe a source in North America?) for the PW points/crankshaft seal?
Thanks in advance
Steve

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal [Re: RossP] #374140 05/18/11 11:40 pm
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dracko Offline
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If anybody has a new Pioneer Western crank seal or knows where I can get one. Please PM me. I am hoping to fire up my bike in a couple weeks and have a SDA in there.

Thanks.

Re: Failed crank feed oil seal [Re: RossP] #374155 05/19/11 12:56 am
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JubeePrince Offline
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I'm pretty sure Mitch Klempf 507-374-2222 would have them. If not, he'd know where to get them.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Failed crank feed oil seal [Re: RossP] #374181 05/19/11 4:04 am
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dracko Offline
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Okay thanks, i'll give him a call tomorrow.


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