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timing gears #89271
03/17/06 2:24 am
03/17/06 2:24 am
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
howdy.i saw a post about triumph timing gears.suppose someone took off the timing cover to replace an oil leaking gasket and the intermediate wheel came off and rolled across the floor and it wouldn't go back on but if the motor got turned with the kicker it slipped into place but the marks were way off so how would a person who might have had this happen to them get the engine to turn 94 times so the marks would line up and they could slip the intermediate wheel back on and it would be correct...if the timing gears get put back in sync and this person had marked everything perfectly to reinstall their electronic ignition would the sharpie marks line up like they did when all that stuff happended and the little white dot show through the right hand hole? i know someone stupid that this happened to


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
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Re: timing gears #89272
03/17/06 3:04 pm
03/17/06 3:04 pm
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
of course the stupid person is me..uh....how do i get the intermediate wheel back on and all the marks lined up?


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89273
03/17/06 3:54 pm
03/17/06 3:54 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 604
back down the 'smoke',England
6T Offline
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back down the 'smoke',England
Hi raf940..I'm sure someone will come up with the correct page of the manual but invest in the workshop manual,their available to the left of this message,you'll have hours of fun!! cheers,6T bigt


...I do not and cannot accept the principal that incompetence justifies dismissal...
T120R '67
6T 1965
T110 1958
Re: timing gears #89274
03/17/06 4:14 pm
03/17/06 4:14 pm
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Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
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John RGS Offline
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new jersey usa
You must set all the timing marks back to the correct posistion. You will need to look at a picture of the correct year for reference. Then it will take some finesse as you are under spring tension from the valve train. A decent sized ratchet and perhaps a small wooden wedge might be of assistance. And don't get your fingers caught in there when you round the cam lobe. It will fly on you with some decent force.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: timing gears #89275
03/17/06 4:19 pm
03/17/06 4:19 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
T
triumphmike Offline
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T

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Posts: 250
Tennessee
raf940

Once the intermediate gear comes off, you pretty much must re-align all the timing marks as shown in the workshop manual. You MUST have the timing marks diagram from the workshop manual for your particular engine.

I assume from your message that your plan is to re-install the intermediate timing gear temporarily and rotate the engine until the timing marks for the cam shafts and crankshaft gear are trianulated or aligned. The you would re-fit the intermediate gear with timing marks properly set. You can do this by removing your spark plugs and rotating the engine with a socket and ratched on the crankshaft nut on the timing side. Remember one crank shaft rotation equals one half rotation on the cam shafts.

Here is a possible alternate method:

First, with the intermediate gear off, set the timing mark on the crankshaft gear at the top. This may be hidden by the washer so you will have to look for it.

Second, I would remove the rocker box covers and loosen all the valve adjusters so that you can turn the cam shafts easily (i.e., without opening the valves). Just be careful the pushrods don't fall away from the rocker arms. You may be able to rotate the cam shafts without loosening the adjustors using a socket and rachet on the cam shaft nut (remember they are left hand thread!) to align the marks. Personally I have never tried either of these, but it seems doable.

Once the crank gear and cam shaft marks are triangulated, simply insert the intermediate gear with proper marks aligned.

Best of Luck to you.

Re: timing gears #89276
03/17/06 4:20 pm
03/17/06 4:20 pm
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
i meant the little white dot in the LEFT hole...i read my haynes manual but what is a 'hunting tooth? why 94 revolutions to line up i should have left the gasket alone and smeared plumbers putty or red mud on the seam...don't shake your head gordon! it was running perfectly and i had to fix 'one more little thing' that's turned out to be a rather frightening nightmare..don't want valves and pistons having a rendevous


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89277
03/17/06 5:02 pm
03/17/06 5:02 pm
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
do i have to turn it 94 times?...i was going to put cam and crank dots in position and slip inter. gear back in.....


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89278
03/17/06 5:34 pm
03/17/06 5:34 pm
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,849
ohio
shel Offline
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ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by raf940:
of course the stupid person is me..uh....how do i get the intermediate wheel back on and all the marks lined up?
what a releif i thought you were talking about me there for a second, i did the samething once.
it's true the marks do only line up once every 94 revolutions in normal operation but you are going to shortcut this by removing the intermediate gear and turning the cams and crank to the correct spot and then reinstall the inter. gear.
as far as your timing indexing mark still being correct it should be close enough to get it running and the just put a timing light on it to verifiy whether it's spot on or not.


When given the choice between two evils I picked the one I haven't tried before
Re: timing gears #89279
03/17/06 5:46 pm
03/17/06 5:46 pm
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
i noticed the cam wheels will turn about 1/8 turn and then get resistance...do i go past the resistance?? turn clockwise or anticlockwise can i just take a socket and turn the cams and crank as needed to line them up...i am really paranoid about this..gordon gray helped me get the ignition spot on and the bike ran wonderfully and now i am scared i am going to stick a valve in the piston...i would have left well enough alone but the leak was bad and when i opened up the cover there are no dowels in there and the surface was rough so it had to be done. ..we learn by doing


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89280
03/17/06 6:19 pm
03/17/06 6:19 pm
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Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
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John RGS Offline
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new jersey usa
Yes you will encounter resistance as you are compressing the valve springs. Do you have a picture as the timing marks can be somewhat confusing. If you line them up like the manual shows your ignition timing should not have changed. But always check for good measure. To ease your parinoia, once this is lined up, turn the motor over slowly by hand to check for possible piston to valve boo boo's. Remember once you turn it over the 94 rule is back in effect.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: timing gears #89281
03/17/06 6:24 pm
03/17/06 6:24 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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North Georgia, USA
Raf40 -
I'm an expert on this, because I also "have a friend" that this happens to frequently. bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: timing gears #89282
03/17/06 6:46 pm
03/17/06 6:46 pm
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
have manuel....er, manual....dont have locating tool..manual says you can use a socket and stick through socket that will drop into groove.....i was cleaning out pieces of gasket that had fallen between the cogs when i was scraping it off the case and i touched the intermediate gear with the rag and it jumped on the ground faster than you can blink an eye..if i had known it would come off that easy i would never have touched the d#*n thing... how do i put a photo on this forum?
many many thanks


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89283
03/17/06 6:58 pm
03/17/06 6:58 pm
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
one more quick question..does it matter which direction i turn the cam wheels??? Mr. Whatley where is your shop in atlanta...i have kin in stone mtn. and next trip there will come by...


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89284
03/17/06 7:16 pm
03/17/06 7:16 pm
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Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
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John RGS Offline
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new jersey usa
As Mr. Whatley said, one is a hard stop the other is spring. If you feel a hard stop go the other way. If you are turning by hand you realy can't do any damage. here is one of many ways to post photos and is free.

http://www.photobucket.com/


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: timing gears #89285
03/18/06 12:39 am
03/18/06 12:39 am
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gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
i think i got it........i gently pulled the cam wheels over to about the right spot..i felt 'springy' resistance as in valve springs...then i made a tool from a little socket and allen wrench to indicate TDC..i looked in the hole to make sure the slot on the crankshaft was where it needed to be and shone a torch down th espark plug hole and gently moved the crankshaft nut with a big socket and breaker bar to triple check TDC was obtained..then i got on the floor and took a wrench on the left of me and a wrench on the right of me and the bottom idler wheel marks at 6 o'clock above the crankshaft nut and then gently moved the two cam wheels and after a few tries the intermediate wheel slipped right on and all marks were perfectly lined up...i turned the engine over slowly and it all seemed perfectly normal..just one question.when i was making my final alignment of the cam wheel marks to line them up with the intermediate wheel marks there was tension on the two wrenchs from the valve springs ..just a little but enough to feel...is that OK?? i think it's all ok but want to make sure....many many many thanks


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89286
03/18/06 2:48 am
03/18/06 2:48 am
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
it just occurred to me that the carefully placed marks i made to get all the Boyer stuff back where it was before i took the timing cover off in the first place are worthless now because i had to move the cogs and have no idea what position they were in when i first took it off.......right or wrong? can i put the pistons at TDC and put the ignition back in on the marks i made exactly where i took it out?

i am learning a lot


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89287
03/18/06 3:24 am
03/18/06 3:24 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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North Georgia, USA
Raffy -
If you post pics, be sure and get some of the ladies in their bikinis. That's the most important part! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: timing gears #89288
03/18/06 2:07 pm
03/18/06 2:07 pm
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
i thought about gettin some bikini gals to help but my wife asked me how i would be able to ride from a hospital bed......anyway....what do you think about the timing?? since i marked everything pre-idler gear situation should it be the same when i put the Boyer stuff back on? i understand the plastic plate will be in the same spot regardless of where the crank is but it's the rotor i'm wondering about...when i took the timing cover off. the white dot was in the hole on the left...
many many thanks...


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89289
03/18/06 2:40 pm
03/18/06 2:40 pm
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Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
J
John RGS Offline
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new jersey usa
It goes without saying you'll have to re-time the Boyer. Start from square one . It's going to be close anyway.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: timing gears #89290
03/18/06 5:39 pm
03/18/06 5:39 pm
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
here's what i've been doing..it was a basket case/chopper when i started 5 months ago


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
Re: timing gears #89291
03/18/06 5:51 pm
03/18/06 5:51 pm
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Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
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John RGS Offline
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new jersey usa
One of the more tasefuly done '71-'72's Ive seen in quite a while, and I do this stuff as a profession! Is that an oil drip under the timing cover? You might want to change that gasket.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: timing gears #89292
03/18/06 6:46 pm
03/18/06 6:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,603
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Quote:
Originally posted by RF Whatley:
Raffy -
Triumph has the timing marks installed at TDC on the exhaust stroke. Why? I don't know. If they had marked the cam wheels at TDC on the compression stroke you'd be able to move the cam wheel by hand and you wouldn't need any shop assitants dressed in bikinis.

OK, but compression TDC on one cylinder is Exhaust TDC on the other.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: timing gears #89293
03/18/06 7:01 pm
03/18/06 7:01 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Triton -
You're certainly correct. My brain is stuck in BSA single mode this week. I gotta get a life!


Everyone here knows I've been looking for a 1966 6T Thunderbird, right? Well, I went down to my Hinckley dealer this AM to get a cup of coffee. And they had one of those new 900cc twin scramblers. And by God, it was cream on top and orange on the bottom, just like a 66 6T!! I nearly bought it on sight!

I lead a distracted life! laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: timing gears #89294
03/18/06 7:53 pm
03/18/06 7:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,603
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
If the bikini girls are redundant, I could handle a cup of tea now.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: timing gears #89295
03/18/06 8:22 pm
03/18/06 8:22 pm
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Posts: 3,754
gastonia nc
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raf940 Offline OP
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gastonia nc
thakee for the compliment..this forum has been invaluable.....but is that talk about TDC exhaust on one side and compression de udder have anything to do with what i just went through??? as in if the marks line up everything is cool and no bass ackward stuff comes into play?


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
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