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T-140V shifting question #89131
03/14/06 5:54 am
03/14/06 5:54 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
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T140V-Rich  Offline OP
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Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
I have a '77 T-140V that has always had a shifter quirk.

Climbing through the gears under medium load, 1st and 2nd shift with a perfect 'snick.' 4th and fifth, 'snick.'

Notice I skipped 3rd. But, my bike always has so I'm used to it.

When climbing from 2nd to 3rd, it will sometimes "miss," acting as if it's in neutral. I lift up slightly on the the shifter again and feel a light 'click' where it's going into 3rd.

Coming down from 5th to 1st through the gears, it downshifts fine. Never misses. Sometimes, most of the time, under revs above 4-grand, it shifts to 3rd perfectly.

During a rebuild five years ago, the guy (40+ years of experience) said the gearbox was the best looking he'd ever seen, no wear, shavings, no bent forks, etc).

But she still 'snick,' 'snick,' reeeEEEVV, 'click,' etc.

I'm used to it. I wait until I know it's in 3rd before I twist the slides open again. But any ideas? I was told the main shaft nut has to be torqued down to 65lbs. No more. No less.

Oil? Clutch pressure adjustment?

Appreciate it!

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
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Re: T-140V shifting question #89132
03/14/06 11:41 am
03/14/06 11:41 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Phatt Bob Offline
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Phatt Bob  Offline
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Posts: 1,081
Cheshire UK
Something rings a bell when I had the Triton converted to a 5 speed. Phil Pick of Triple Cycles noted there was a problem with the 3rd gear to do with the layshaft 2nd gear bush. IIRC, he drifted the bush out, cut a notch in the bush housing (non flange end) on the gear with a Dremel, drifted the bush back in, then burnished the bush into the notch. It was a few years ago, but I think it was to do with stopping the bush moving in the gear, and standing 3rd off.

Hope this helps

Bob


Phatt Bob
'95 Daytona 1200
'98 Daytona 1200 dragbike
ex-850 T140 Caff Racer, 850 Triton, Morgo T120, Starfire and Pretend Daytona 500 owner
Re: T-140V shifting question #89133
03/14/06 1:57 pm
03/14/06 1:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 189
easley south carolina
B
bsadb Offline
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B

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 189
easley south carolina
Just for kicks and grins check the detent spring tension first .This is under the transmission next to the drain plug. If it is working smooth and the spring is good take the kick cover off. Then look at the nut that holds the mainshaft tight against the bearing via the kick start gears. it needs to be tight. They are bad about loosing up. If that is functoning well, then remove the shift plate (cam plate)and check for wear. It is possible it was a bad day at Coventry when it was indexed in the milling machine. It just may be a collection of slightly missed the marks on all the components of third gear, fork,gears,plate combo. Your service mauual will tell you how to do all of this. If I can do it anyone can.


Always use the Golden Rule.
Re: T-140V shifting question #89134
03/14/06 5:19 pm
03/14/06 5:19 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by bsadb:
Just for kicks and grins check the detent spring tension first. This is under the transmission next to the drain plug.
Rich -
They stopped using the setup mentioned above in 1970 or 71. Your bike won't have this feature. Don't even bother looking.

The symptom doesn't sound familiar to me, but if you do go in it would be worth the couple of extra bucks to replace the 4 shifter springs in the outer cover as insurance. Or at least compare their condition and length to new springs.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: T-140V shifting question #89135
03/14/06 9:30 pm
03/14/06 9:30 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
T
triumphmike Offline
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triumphmike  Offline
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T

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
When Triumph came out with the oil-in-frame in 1971, they also stopped using the index plunger/spring/housing system from underneath the cases. They went to a leaf spring type device that was bolted to the inner gearbox cover. However, when they started making the 750cc engines in 1973 (or after the strike at Meriden) Triumph went back to the plunger type gearbox detent system. This should be what you have in your T140V.

From your description, it sounds as if you are hitting a false neutral when shifting from 2nd to 3rd under the conditions you described. This happens when the cam plate actually goes past the notch. I would recommend you replace the detent spring and check the end of the plunger to make sure it is not too "rounded". Also check the cam plate. Sometimes the "edge" of the cam plate can have some rough surfaces or indentations. When I encounter this, I use a Dremel tool to smooth the edge which allows the cam plate to slide easier over the plunger and drop into the gear notches better (believe it or not). In any event, the plunger is accessable from under the gearbox so the only hassel is draining and refilling the gearbox oil. This is an easy and low cost way to start finding the problem. Best of luck to you.

Re: T-140V shifting question #89136
03/15/06 12:41 am
03/15/06 12:41 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Mike -
I stand corrected. Gosh, you learn something every day!

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: T-140V shifting question #89137
03/15/06 2:51 am
03/15/06 2:51 am
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5
with micky FL usa
J
jonienglish Offline
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jonienglish  Offline
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J

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5
with micky FL usa
I have a 77 t140 and it does 'EXACTLY' the same thing!!! I read your post and thought I had written it for a minute!! pint pint pint

I will try the advice as well and let you know what I find. I spent time chasing down some shell spirax ep 90, its shell and its old so it must be good right? smile
well I drained, filled, rode a bit, drained, filled, rode a bit and it still does the same thing!!
ps. if you have the pushin pipes I used the seal kit from shropshire classics and it worked great!

Re: T-140V shifting question #89138
03/15/06 3:11 am
03/15/06 3:11 am
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
J
John RGS Offline
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John RGS  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
I agree with Mike as we all know of the false nuetral positions on the five speed gear box camplate. The major cause of this malady is in fact a weak plunger spring. And as he stated a fairly easy fix. For those afflicted with the detent leaf on the '71 thru '73 gear boxes, it would be a major improvement to install a heavy duty spring, availible from many suppliers for around $8.00 dollars. Indexing these gear boxes can be a little tricky as most indexing instructions are for plunger type springs and they are different. I believe Mr. Healy touched on this in an earlier post. Also earlier posted , the Glenns manual of '73 is about the only illustrated instruction that covers indexing the leaf detent.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: T-140V shifting question #89139
03/15/06 3:35 am
03/15/06 3:35 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by John RGS:
Also earlier posted , the Glenns manual of '73 is about the only illustrated instruction that covers indexing the leaf detent.
I seem to remember a pretty good picture that came with the Triumph Service Bulletin when they introduced the 5-speed indexing tool. :rolleyes:


bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: T-140V shifting question #89140
03/15/06 4:18 am
03/15/06 4:18 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
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T140V-Rich  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
Appreciate the tips and suggestions. I think I'll start at the easiest and work my way up. The plunger sounds easiest to have a go at.

Jonienglish's post is actually reassuring in that it may not be unique to my bike (ie., I've boogered something). Sorry Jonienglish smile

I wonder if more out there have this quirk?


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T-140V shifting question #89141
03/15/06 5:27 am
03/15/06 5:27 am
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
J
John RGS Offline
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John RGS  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
This is indeed a quirk on T-140V late model machines. I did a road call once when the customer thought he blew up his gear box only to find it was stuck in a false nuetral. Then again I hooked up my trailer once to go get him for a blown fuse. Try the suggested remidies noted here. Once repaired you have many miles ahead before this issue needs further attention. Hope this all was of assistance.


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: T-140V shifting question #89142
03/15/06 1:48 pm
03/15/06 1:48 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,989
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline
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Mike Baker  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,989
Asheville, NC
An old Triumph service bulliten addressed the leaf spring tension issue. It in effect said to enlarge the bolt holes to an oblong shape so that the spring could be bolted back onto the inner trans cover in a manner that put more tension on the spring enabling it to engage the cam plate more securely. I did this to my 71 and must say that while it has helped with my false neutral problems, I have to wonder if I have weakened the little bugger. The heavy duty spring sounds like a better option. If you don't mind, J RGS, who supplies said item?

Re: T-140V shifting question #89143
03/15/06 1:58 pm
03/15/06 1:58 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
T
triumphmike Offline
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triumphmike  Offline
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T

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
Mr. Blab,

You can also install the plunger detent spring system in the 71/72 models, but you need to have the cases split. Triumph cast the boss on the bottom of the gearbox case and you simply need to purchase the housing/plunger/spring setup. I did this on my 1972 TR6R during a bottom end rebuild.

Before I installed the plunger, I did have to replace the leaf spring. I was having trouble shifting (false neutrals all over the place) and found the leaf spring had actually worn a "slot" in it where it engaged the cam plate. At the time, I did not need to do a bottom end job so I simply replaced the spring.

Re: T-140V shifting question #89144
03/15/06 2:37 pm
03/15/06 2:37 pm
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
J
John RGS Offline
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John RGS  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,919
new jersey usa
The improved detent springs are availible from MAP Cycle.
57-4288 Spring, detent. Modified for more tension $7.95
Would also suggest replacing the support spring

57-4289 Spring, Detent support. $6.95

http://www.mapenterprises.net/mapcycle/


,_o
_ -\_<,
(*)/'(*)

NOPGS #2
Re: T-140V shifting question #89145
03/16/06 12:44 pm
03/16/06 12:44 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
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T140V-Rich  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
John,

When you're unscrewing the plunger, does the spring and plunger simply drop straight down or is there anything that binds the plunger?

Simply looking at the parts manuals it makes the plunger appear as if it's simply balanced on the tip of the spring.

If unscrewed, and the pressure is taken off the tip of the plunger (loss of contact with cam plate) will/can the plunger tip take a "holiday" and wind up somewhere inside the gearbox.

OR, does it simply drop straight down?

Appreciate everyone's patience on this matter.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T-140V shifting question #89146
03/16/06 1:35 pm
03/16/06 1:35 pm
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
P
phantom309 Offline
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P

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Posts: 1,346
spfld vt
I have a factory index tool for the five speed that is spot on every time with no guess work.Put it in first gear install tool and assemble.one of the good factory tools. bigt and yes all the plunger parts will come out the bottom hole but you cant see the cam plate.


Tim Joyce
sponsors
D@D cycles
Works shocks
Glass from the past
Re: T-140V shifting question #89147
03/16/06 1:54 pm
03/16/06 1:54 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
T
triumphmike Offline
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triumphmike  Offline
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T

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 250
Tennessee
Rich,

The plunger itself is almost an inch long and is a hollow cylinder that the spring fits up into. The plunger, when depresed, retracts into the housing. The whole assembly drops straight without danger of leaving the plunger inside.

By the way, I attended a seminar that John Healy gave at Mid-Ohio last year and one of the items he passed around was an "after market" cam plate which was improperly machined. The neutral notch was between 3rd and 4th gear, not between 1st and 2nd gear!

Re: T-140V shifting question #89148
03/16/06 5:36 pm
03/16/06 5:36 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
Britbodger R.I.P. Offline
In Remembrance
Britbodger R.I.P.  Offline
In Remembrance

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,913
Houston Texas
I use my own cardboard template to index the 5-speed using instructions from the factory manual. Works quite well.

Also modfied leaf-type to plunger type gear selector indexer by drilling and tapping hole in case by eye.

Works bigt ! Think I was lucky though and not sure could get the correct alignment again.

Re: T-140V shifting question #89149
03/16/06 6:03 pm
03/16/06 6:03 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
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RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by RF Whatley:
...if you do go in it would be worth the couple of extra bucks to replace the 4 shifter springs in the outer cover as insurance. Or at least compare their condition and length to new springs.
With the addition of a camplate plunger, you would also need to add the plunger spring to your list of coils springs to check the length and possibly replace.

We were seeing 1/8" shrinkage back in the early 70's on 4-5 year old machines. No telling how much length (and compressive force) you've lost in 30 years!

The leaf spring was one of those cost-cutting ideas that came over from BSA. Glad they dumped it and went back to what worked. I've seen 1972 machines drilled to add the plunger back. The boss on the bottom of the case was never removed. The L-to-R distance over from the machined inner g/b cover face was a nice 'round' number like 1.50" or 2.50", not something strange. The front-to-back distance was eye-balled to hit the center of the shifter cam face. I second the vote to only attempt this during an engine rebuild when you can chuck the case in a drill press or mill. Very ticklish, but worth the effort.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: T-140V shifting question #89150
03/16/06 11:33 pm
03/16/06 11:33 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
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T140V-Rich  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
Thanks guys. The question as to whether or not the spring and plunger would go on a sabatical inside the gearbox was answered.

And RF's answer makes sense in that after 30 years, these things could shrink a bit.

Thanks for the homework and knowledge (and part numbers) you guys shared.

Appreciate it!

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T-140V shifting question #89151
05/14/06 4:03 am
05/14/06 4:03 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
T140V-Rich  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
Just thought I'd give an update on the detent spring and the shifting quirk mentioned above.

Changed the spring inside the gearbox plug (and the gearbox oil since it'd drained anyway).

A quick drive down the street today showed no signs whatever of missing 3rd. bigt

The old spring (original 1977) was about a 1/8th inch shorter than the new.

I'd remembered someone had said they had the same problem. Putting the new spring in took about five minutes.

John, you mentioned the plunger being rounded. Mine is fairly well rounded. Cause for concern?

Appreciate all the help. It's now "snick, snick, snick" with no misses. beerchug

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T-140V shifting question #89152
05/14/06 6:16 pm
05/14/06 6:16 pm
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,267
North Georgia, USA
You're welcome. That will be $30 !! laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: T-140V shifting question #89153
05/14/06 9:57 pm
05/14/06 9:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
T140V-Rich  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
I'll pay it, RF, if it'll be used to acquire different attire than mentioned in your response to Barb's question on riding togs! laughing

Where is your shop located precisely, RF? We're about five hours from Atlanta and are looking for some late Cub parts.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
Re: T-140V shifting question #89154
05/15/06 11:26 pm
05/15/06 11:26 pm
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 36
Mid North Coast, NSW, Australi...
O
ozziebsa Offline
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ozziebsa  Offline
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O

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 36
Mid North Coast, NSW, Australi...
Hello T140V-Rich and jonienglish,
You are not alone with the 3rd gear problem and as you could appreciate I have been following this thread with great interest as my 76 T140V has had this problem for some time and I was dreading pulling the gearbox apart.

I hope my problem is as easy as replacing the plunger spring!

Thanks for all the relevant advice.

Cheers from Australia,
ozziebsa

Re: T-140V shifting question #89155
05/16/06 2:34 am
05/16/06 2:34 am
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
T140V-Rich Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
T140V-Rich  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,000
Sunny South Carolina, (US)
Hi Oz,

A bit further of an update. I did take the bike out today for what was planned to be a trip to the grocer only to turn into a 50-mile ride. laugh It's amazing the backroads you can find in a five mile trip!

Pointing being, the shift from second to third did miss ONCE today. But once the bike, oil, etc had warmed up it shifted as solidly as any other cog.

My plans were to start with the spring and go from there. But I believe my efforts in this area will be canceled, the new spring doing its thing.

Good luck on it. Keep us updated on what you discover.

Richard


1977 T-140V
1973 T-140V
2011 Bonneville SE
Author of "Relics and Reminiscing."
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