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#86244 - 12/12/05 8:48 pm 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
Hello!

I own a 1969 Triumph Trophy TR25W 250 motorcycle. This is my first british motorcycle and I know very little about the bike model. I would appreciate anyone who could tell me the history about the Trophy 250's and what parts are interchangeable with other Triumph models. Thanks!
Triumph Kid

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#86245 - 12/12/05 9:55 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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dave jones Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
Your bike was made from 1968 to 1970. It was followed by the T25SS and T25T which had oil bearing frames. The engines on these three models and also the BSA C25 and B25 are almost identical and many parts are interchangeable.

All of these machines were derived from the old Triumph Tiger Cub (a development of the similar looking Terrier which had a different crankcase arrangement) via the BSA C15.
Dave

#86246 - 12/12/05 10:10 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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hh Offline
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hh  Offline
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British Columbia
I highly recommend that you install an oil filter in the return line and change the oil frequently. These bikes are prone to destroying their rod's big end if the oil isn't kept clean. Also, if you plan to rev it near its redline of 8500 RPM, you must lighten the exhaust rocker by removing its compression release boss (which has no bad side effect, since they never made this model with a compression release lever strangely enough.) If you don't, you'll bend the exhaust valve.

Instead of the compression release lever, if you want to start it easily, pop it into second and pull the bike back a foot or two until you feel the piston hitting compression and then go back to neutral and kick it from there. This gets your piston in the same position as a release lever would allow you to and is much easier on the kicking mechanism, not to mention avoiding clutch slip which can happen with its 10 to 1 compression.

Many people will tell you that these bikes are unreliable, but I've been riding one to work everyday for five years now with the above mods. The only problem I've had was a cracked piston, probably from detonation from using regular gas. Use the highest octane you can get at the pump. The BSA B25 is literally identical except for the badged parts like the primary cover and pushrod inspection covers which will fit, but just look different.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#86247 - 12/13/05 1:57 am Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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North Georgia, USA
Triumph stopped making the 200cc Tiger Cub after 1967. In it's place they offered the BSA 250 (the B25) branded as a Triumph. BSA owned Triumph at the time. It was pretty much a sales disaster for numerous reasons.

For the reasons listed above by HH and others (the 2-bolt oil pump, for one) they didn't last long with American riders. I worked at a dealer and saw lots of them come in with bad rod bearings at 2500 miles.

However, they are fun and can be great bikes in the right hands. If your engines blows up I highly recommend finding a BSA 350 (B40) or 441 (B44) and putting it in there.

Enjoy.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#86248 - 12/13/05 5:00 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
I have another question about my Triumph Trophy 250. I bought some tank knee pads for the bike. The knee pads are brand new and are completely flat on the backside. The tank is also flat and contains no holes or brackets for the tank rubber pads. Do these glue on with a special addhesive? I am also trying to figure out what thread is the "Triumph" tank emblem screws? Maybe someone out there can help! Thanks
Triumph Kid

#86249 - 12/13/05 5:37 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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North Georgia, USA
Kid -
Yes, the knee pads glue on. Obviously, the factory used sheet double-sided adhesive. (What is known as "supervisor tape" because it's 2-faced!) When the pads fell off, we used 3M Weather Strip Adhesive (known as "gorilla snot" in technical circles) to put them back on. But since this is bulk adhesive, it was often lumpy in application, and always a stringy, gooey mess.

I've often heard that standard silicone sealer does much better, is easier to clean up afterward, and has as much (or more) holding power. I'd certainly try that first since it's completely reversable, without doing damage to the pads themselves. Silicone sealer being inert and all.

The screws you seek are a Brit thread. You almost have to buy them from Triumph or BSA dealers. There is usually an American size that is a close approximation, but you'll never dulplicate the domed flat head look of the original.

However, before you do ANY of the beautification steps you'll want to put an oil pressure gauge on that engine and make sure it's worth the time and money investment.

Hope this helps! bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#86250 - 12/13/05 5:38 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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North Georgia, USA
PS...
That's me that sent you the email.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#86251 - 12/13/05 5:58 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
And after you have fitted the oil filter buy Rupert Ratio's book on BSA Unit singles for loads of info and tips. There is a link on this site somewhere.

#86252 - 12/13/05 6:33 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Triumph Kid  Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
Thanks for the great info guys! I am slowly learning what bikes are all about. This Triumph is something I treasure very much. My plans are to do some occasional riding on dirt roads. I definitely don't plan on riding the bike hard and testing it's mechanical limits. The bike has 524 original miles and I'm the 3rd owner. I purchased the bike for very little money in running and somewhat complete condition. Something I find very interesting is that the single BSA and Triumph's are harder to find than their big brothers (twins and triple's). Something that would be a very big help to me is a shop manual that explains maintainance practices and mechanical break-downs. I have purchased a illustrated parts breakdown that shows pictures of the bike and part numbers. What I need is a manual for working on Triumph Singles. Something else I would like to know is how the oiling system works on my Trophy 250.

#86253 - 12/13/05 7:45 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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kommando Online content
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Scotland
Your choices are

Bsa Workshop manual B25/B44 (but not Victor as it does not cover the 250's)

Triumph Workshop manual TR25W (3rd edition is best and has more detail than the BSA versions and is of course directly relevant to your version)

Haynes (more trouble than its worth IMO)

Best bet is to get the Triumph CD from this site, here are the contents you are interested in, they are in PDF so you can print the pages you need.

SPC-6 Replacement Parts Catalogue No SPC6 for 1968 Trophy 250 TR25W
SPC-10 Replacement Parts Catalogue No SPC10 for 1969 Trophy 250 TR25W
99-0966 Replacement Parts Catalogue for 1970 TR25W, plus Supplement for UK and General Export Models
99-0929 Replacement Parts Catalogue for 1971 Blazer SS T25 SS & Trail Blazer T25T, plus Supplement for UK and General Export Modelsplus “as issued by the Factory” hand-typed (economy measure!!) corrections/amendments to above two manuals ~ SCARCE
99-09 Official Workshop manual for the TR25W Trophy. Combined with the TR25W file listed below and the parts list, this gives you absolutely everything you need to keep your 250 running like a dream.
TR25W This manual is, I suspect, RARE!! It is a “hand-made” and “hand-typed” (ie done on a type-writer, not typeset) Engine Overhaul manual for the TR25W, dated June 1970. It looks like it was produced by Triumph in the USA as an “internal” aid for their own mechanics. It may be copied from other Triumph publications but looks like a “one-off” to me. I’ve been told by a mechanic who used it to reassemble a BSA 250cc single of the same year (1970) that it is BRILLIANT. For those of you who have a 250cc machine of this vintage, this book may be worth the cost of the whole CD.

#86254 - 12/13/05 11:11 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Triumph Kid  Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
Kommando,
Thanks for the great information! I will have to check out the CD! I found several spiral-spine Triumph Trophy 250 Shop manuals on eBay. The average price is around $25.00 These manuals look like they are typed up on a type-writer. Perhaps this manual is a good one to have in the garage? Something my little 250 needs are new tires! Where is a good place to order stock style tires for a decent price? My Trophy is still equipped with the original Dunlap trial tires. I would like to buy a replacement set for it.

#86255 - 12/14/05 8:34 am Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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Scotland
You can get the workshop manual still printed by the original printer here

http://ds.dial.pipex.com/slippery_sam/jrframes.htm

Click on the 250cc singles on the right.

As for tyres best wait for advice from someone your side of the pond, on my Victor project I am still undecided as to go for old looking tyres or for something more modern, Continental do a tradition looking tyre that looks interesting and is rated in the UK by Unit Single riders

http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/contibike/tyres/tkc80.php

#86256 - 12/14/05 12:57 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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tombeau Offline
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Finland
A "Fleetstar" Lower compression piston. Is a good idea.
Standard comp was 10.5:1 too much for the bottom end if revved hard.
They're great wee bikes had a Starfire for years.

#86257 - 12/14/05 3:21 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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EWebster Offline
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Quote:
This manual is, I suspect, RARE!! It is a “hand-made” and “hand-typed” (ie done on a type-writer, not typeset) Engine Overhaul Manual for the TR25W, dated June 1970. It looks like it was produced by Triumph in the USA as an “internal” aid for their own mechanics. It may be copied from other Triumph publications but looks like a “one-off” to me. I’ve been told by a mechanic who used it to reassemble a BSA 250cc single of the same year (1970) that it is BRILLIANT. For those of you who have a 250cc machine of this vintage, this book may be worth the cost of the whole CD.
Kommando, that book was written by none other than Cliff Guild of Tri-Cor fame, the mechanic behind the Daytona winning T100R's. Mr. Healy probably knew him.

#86258 - 12/14/05 3:26 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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kommando Online content
kommando  Online Content


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That was the blurb from Kim's listing from his CD listing which I copied and pasted, nice to hear of the source as I have it on the BSA CD too.

#86259 - 12/14/05 4:14 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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hh Offline
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British Columbia
tombeau: where did you get the 10.5:1 figure? I always thought it was 9.75:1.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#86260 - 12/14/05 7:17 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
Thanks for the feedback guys! I'm looking forward to working on my Trophy soon. I would still like to know how my oiling system works on the bike? Something else I am curious about is what engine oil weight do you use in the crankcase?
Triumph Kid

#86261 - 12/14/05 11:28 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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hh Offline
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The oil from the tank feeds the smaller capacity side of the gear pump by gravity, where it is pumped through the end of the timing side of the crank via a lipped seal in the inner timing cover. The oil galleries in the crank feed the throws after passing through the centrifugal sludge trap. This oil splashes the entire crankcase including the cylinders and the under side of the pistons. It is then scavenged by a pickup pipe at bottom after passing through a screen by the larger capacity side of the pump and returned to the tank, except for a small amount that is forked off this line to feed the top end.

I recommend 10W40 in the winter and 20W50 in the summer for engine oil. Use of heavier grades risks flipping the crank feed seal backwards. The gearbox is a separate system; use 80W90 here. The primary is also separate; use ATF type F here. For the forks use 20W or thereabouts depending on riding style.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
#86262 - 12/15/05 5:16 am Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Triumph Kid  Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
Thanks for the oiling tips and the good info on my bike's oiling system. Where on the bike can I install an inline oil pressure gage? Something I have always heard is that Lucas Electrical components for British bikes are real bad and problematic. Is there some truth to this? Everything on my bike works properly at the moment.

#86263 - 12/15/05 12:23 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Rich B Online happy
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Stone Creek OH USA
Late unit singles have a port for an oil pressure switch on the RH side of the engine. You may have a switch, you may have a plug if it is present at all. If it isn't present, there is no easy way to install a gauge.

IF your going to do anything, add a return line oil filter. Best thing you can do for your engine. IMO. Return line filter kits are not expensive and with a little attention to detail can be fairly well hidden. Your engine will like you for providing clean oil.

Lucas components don't tend to be significantly worse and aren't any better than most of the electrical stuff from that era. The Lucas system tends to be somewhat prone to being delicate and strange to most people. And frequently abused.

If it was my bike, I would retire the Lucas rectifier and zener diode in the charging system. Replace it with a Podtronics (my choice) or one of several other types of replacement units available. Make sure the harness and connections are in good condition. And update the ground system. A dedicated ground wire from the headlight bucket, engine, charge control, and battery tied to a single point on the frame makes a world of difference in function and reliability of the electrical system. If you want, you can ground the taillight to this point also. Done carefully and neatly, you won't even notice it has been added. Relying on frames to provide a gound path is so wrong, IMO.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#86264 - 12/15/05 1:49 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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RF Whatley Online content
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RF Whatley  Online Content
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich B:
Lucas components don't tend to be significantly worse and aren't any better than most of the electrical stuff from that era. The Lucas system tends to be somewhat prone to being delicate and strange to most people. And frequently abused.
Here! Here! Everybody knocks Lucas equipment from the 60's unjustly. Show me similar equipment from the same year Honda or Suzuki. Heck, for that matter show me a Honda or Suzuki from those years. Where are they now? Where ever it is, the bikes are not worth riding or restoring.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#86265 - 12/15/05 5:55 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Rich B Online happy
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RF

I agree, Lucas stuff gets a lot of bad rap. It is not totally deserved. When I worked at the dealer and work I have done on my own since then, Lucas stuff itself wasn't that bad considering it's vintage. It was frequently abuse, lack of understanding, and poor service had more to do with the problems than the actual Lucas component. Was it trouble free? No, but then most anything else electronic/electrical from that era on vehicles wasn't that much better. I always ask people, if you were still driving a 67 Chevy, how many alternators would you have replaced?

But today we have some truly nice upgrade stuff improve the Brit bikes. I have no problem at all recommending an upgrade for the charge control and some other areas. Why live with 1950's technology, unless you really want to.

True story to follow. When the major Japanese invasion started, the electrics were always an area that was pointed out to be superior to the British bikes. Several years ago at Mid Ohio, I led several vintage japanese bikes back from the dirt track races at night. Why? The headlight on my vintage Brit bike was better than any of the jap bikes! They (the vintage jap bike owners) were surprised. But to your point about that vintage Jap bike, there are no upgrades available to make the electrical systems better. They had to follow an upgraded Brit bike. Using a Lucas alternator! So much for the "superior" systems.


Life is too short to drink cheap, bad beer.
#86266 - 12/15/05 6:52 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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tombeau Offline
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HH,
Thanks for pointing this out.

I 'm wrong,

The ratio on my Road Rocket is 10.5:1. I must have confused the 2... Sorry.


Cheers,
Tombeau

#86267 - 12/15/05 7:10 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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Triumph Kid Offline
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Spokane, WA USA
So far I have been taking notes and learning many new ways to make my Trophy better and more reliable. Thank you for all the great info! Here comes another question....... My Triumph is a 69' year and I noticed that the hardware and fasteners on the bike are not metric nor standard american. I have been told about the "Whitworth" thread and hardware sizes. What does my little trophy have? Someone also told me that the screws are "BA" thread.....whats that? Again, I know that these questions maybe lame, but I am brand new to the british stuff. Please educate me! Thanks Triumph Kid

#86268 - 12/15/05 8:05 pm Re: 69' Triumph Trophy 250 historical research  
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hh Offline
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hh  Offline
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tombeau: Can you run your Road Rocket on pump gas there in Finland? The best pump gas in Canada is 94 octane ((Research + Motor)/2) which is barely enough for 9:1 in the hot summer it seems.


"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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