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#84849 - 11/02/05 12:19 am Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
Okay, hold onto your lug nuts it's time for an overhaul! The "slick-shift" transmission isn't too slick anymore apparently, so I'm preparing for a rebuild. I could really use the help of this board to get the job done.

I've been talking to Jon W. quite a bit about some changes with needle bearings and the likes to make it an all around better transmission. So, let's talk about it. What should I do to this thing inside? I would prefer not to machine anything because I don't have too many contacts in the area and it's expensive to have machining done in Vegas, but I'm open to suggestions. Ultimately, I want to pull this thing apart, replace the things that are worn out, and maybe improve where possible for a good, reliable gear box. In addition to the interior improvements I'm going to clean this thing up and make the covers and maybe even the case shine! Any suggestions on what books or articles in addition to just having a parts manual and shop manual would be helpful too if there are some available.

Thanks!
Scooter


ScooterMcRad
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#84850 - 11/02/05 6:36 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
There are only 2 improvements...

1) Install the later style needle roller on the lay shaft. This does NOT involve any machining. However, you use 2 bearings from the inner cover and NOT the closed end version from the DS.

2) Start running 90 gear oil, NOT the 50W engine oil your manual states. This does not involve any machining either.

Then quit making excuses and ride the thing.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#84851 - 11/02/05 8:29 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
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scootermcrad  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
That's it?! That sounds simple enough. In fact I already run the 90 now, so I guess that just means replace worn out springs, and bushings including the ones mentioned. Sounds good to me!


ScooterMcRad
#84852 - 11/03/05 4:20 am Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
Well, you will have to install the needle bearings correctly! And they will require the separate little bronze thrust washers.

There is, or course, a special tool for installing the needle roller bearings correctly. Every good Triumph mechanic has one.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#84853 - 11/03/05 3:36 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
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scootermcrad  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
Oh man that's mean! Leavin' me hangin' on what the tool is! So, what's the special tool and where can I get it? I'm going to be doing this myself with the help of one of our other local BritBike.com members, so if he doesn't have the tool I will buy it if it makes the installation correct.

So the thrust washers will be required? What are the part numbers?


ScooterMcRad
#84854 - 11/03/05 7:22 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
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dave jones  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I had the special tool made from the dimensions given in the unit manual( I have the unit 650). It is just a drift with two diameters, so designed so that when you tap in the race, the outer part protrudes the regulation amount for the thrust washer to slip on to. The tool I have is made of mild steel but others have said aluminium is better.However, I was completely successful. It is an easy job to fit the bearings.

Of course, if your bushes are ok, leave well alone! The more you do, the more there is to get into difficulties with, so I have found!

Check out the mainshaft bearings and change them if they are rough. You can clean the dogs up on the gears but I didn't bother. Check the high gear bush for wear.

You will probably find that all is in surprisingly good condition- I did, even though the oil looked like metallic paint! These Triumphs are very tough!

To Mr Whatley- Oil that turns metallic is the 50 grade engine oil. I changed to Castrol (Three letters beginning with T- I chucked out the empty bottle)) expensive manual transmission oil. I was told by castrol that this was ok for the bronze bushes. Which others are ok so that I don't have to hunt around for the same stuff? I know that some oils are bad for these bronze parts.

Dave
Dave

#84855 - 11/03/05 7:34 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Huntington Beach, CA
Dave,
I don't suppose you could scan and post the picture from the book so I can make one could you? Or somebody?

As for the transmission, as you probably saw in my other post ("clutch basket eating pre-unit") I'm down to doing something with the transmission and I figure if I'm in there I might as well do it right the first time so I don't have to open it up again. I need piece of mind at this point! If it's an easy fix and I do it right I would think it would be reliable and could be left alone for another century.


ScooterMcRad
#84856 - 11/06/05 12:41 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
dave jones Offline
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dave jones  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,524
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...


The unit gearbox has a little pip which holds the thrust washer in place for which you have to grind out a part of the tool to suit. I assume that the pre unit won't have this so you can make the tool as it is in the diagram. You can check the length of the tool by measuring into the gearbox (you just need to be able to get your hammer onto the end of it). I had mine made from mild steel. The bearings tap in easily with the case heated but you could choose alloy instead if you are worried about it. Mine went in fine on the unit without damaging the bearings. Look back down the thread to see the bearing recommendations. They seem to be different to the unit (you use two the same).
Dave

#84857 - 11/07/05 1:04 am Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
Scoot -
Gotcha!! Dave gave you the correct dims, and yes, the pre-unit does have the steel nib which has to be cleared.

Dave did tell you wrong though. The bronze bush is a BAD, BAD, BAD design. All the pressure is downward with the gear faces trying to force the 2 shafts apart. Therefore, the bush wears only at the 6 o'clock position. With needle rollers, the bearings circulate and take the load in turn with none wearing.

If oil was kept in your g/b you'll see NO mainshaft bearing wear.

bigt


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#84858 - 11/07/05 5:43 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
WOW! I love coming to this place for answers! Every day I learn a TON! Thanks for the effort on the scan! I know what a pain it is to scan, save, upload to a photobucket type place and then finally post! Really appreciated!! I'll have to think about steel vs. alloy for the tool. I may just go with a 6061-T6 alloy since it's still pretty hard.

BTW, could someone please post the part numbers for the required needle bearings and thrust washers and which bushing locations they are replacing?

You guys rule! Thanks a load! bigt


ScooterMcRad
#84859 - 11/07/05 5:58 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
RF Whatley Online content
BritBike Forum member
RF Whatley  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,108
North Georgia, USA
The factory tool is aluminum.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA

"Shop Boy" at Rodi British Bikes
#84860 - 11/07/05 7:07 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
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scootermcrad  Offline
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Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
What is the factory tool part number so I can compare costs? May be awhile before I can get it made too.


ScooterMcRad
#84861 - 11/21/05 3:35 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
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scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
RF Whatley (or anyone)... you say use the needle bearings for this conversion that are open... is this 57-1606 or 57-1614??? I'm finding some discrepancies from a couple different companies. One says the 1606 is closed and another says it's the open one! UGG!!! confused I need to order this today!


ScooterMcRad
#84862 - 11/22/05 4:09 am Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,664
Jon W. Whitley Online content
Jon W. Whitley  Online Content



Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 6,664
Vermont
Scooter,

57-1614 is the open one.

beerchug


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1970 BSA A65F 650 - Project

#84863 - 11/22/05 1:22 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 157
pre-unit Offline
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Posts: 157
capecod ma.
beerchug


who ever doesn't take a chance never has a chance.
#84864 - 11/22/05 3:06 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
Thanks Jon! I will order that one... I'm waiting to see what comes in from cycle dynamics now. I thought it would be here yesterday, but nothing.

Hey pre-unit. ??? You lost me brotha'. Arent the bearings going into a closed hole? I won't be able to bring something through the wall of the transmission... unless I'm thinking about this wrong?? I ended up ordering the tool anyway. It was easier for me to order it since I couldn't get access to our lathe at work. THIS IS WHY I NEED A LATHE!!!


ScooterMcRad
#84865 - 11/22/05 3:24 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 157
pre-unit Offline
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pre-unit  Offline
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Posts: 157
capecod ma.
yep.. never mind. pre-coffe nonsense. i just read your response and looked up on my CD. damn.. maybe the powers that be will have mercy on me and delete my response to save me from looking like a :rolleyes:

laughing laughing


who ever doesn't take a chance never has a chance.
#84866 - 11/30/05 8:33 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
Gearbox is apart, looks pretty good except for the mainshaft bearings are toast. Some case and cover polishing happening while I'm waiting for parts to come then it's reassembly time.

What, if anything, should be greased? What type and how much?


ScooterMcRad
#84867 - 12/01/05 4:04 pm Re: Pre-unit transmission rebuild help and tips  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
scootermcrad Offline
BritBike Forum
scootermcrad  Offline
BritBike Forum

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 441
Huntington Beach, CA
Also, any tips on getting the old bushings out of the outer cover (shifter and kicker spindle bushings) without screwing up the cover?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Need to get these bushings out and my plan so far was to heat up the cover and just use the small drifts I have or a socket if I can find one of appropriate size to drift them out.

Tips on this and the grease (if any) please!!

Thanks! bigt


ScooterMcRad

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