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74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74106
03/25/08 12:09 am
03/25/08 12:09 am
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 33
Bossier City, Louisiana
L
limeyscoot Offline OP
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Bossier City, Louisiana
:rolleyes: What determines the difference between a 74 850 Commando Roadster MKII and a 74 850 Commando Roadster MKIIA? Is it the place of manufacture or the Ser#? All of my numbers match, #308657.
Stan. beerchug

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Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74107
03/25/08 1:49 pm
03/25/08 1:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,106
McKellar,Ontario
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I am also confused by this IIA trickery, having a 74 850 same as yours 307___
I believe, from what I can gather, that the IIA for 74 indicates the incorporation of the black cap mufflers and plastic air box.These were added in an attempt to pass some emmision or noise laws somewhere.


If Norton made an airplane,would you fly in it?
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74108
03/25/08 2:29 pm
03/25/08 2:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,269
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline

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Hamilton, Mass. USA
As KK stated, It is basically the final configuration of assembly. Black caps and plastic airbox (ala MKIII) gearbox sprocket???? ie different bolt on pieces.
Worthy of roadside chit chat, otherwise it's just another commando variant.
beerchug


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74109
03/25/08 10:02 pm
03/25/08 10:02 pm
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,402
New Zealand
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johnm Offline
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New Zealand
I was going to wait for Dave before saying anything.

I agree that the MK11A had the black caps and plastic airbox. I have a Mk11, engine no 32-,--- first registered in Sept 75 in NZ (but built in July August 74?) - so a late model Mk11. It had the steel airbox and peashooters.

But it also incorporates more Mk111 like features like the detail of the exhaust header pipe mounting in the head.

For a while I thought that Mk11As were sold in West Coast USA and maybe continental Europe. But now I think they mixed them up all over the world. Dave told me he has seen them both sides of the US.

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74110
03/25/08 10:31 pm
03/25/08 10:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,269
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline

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John
Yes, A few but probably not many MKIIA made it to the USA I have worked on one sleep

I however saw one guy claim "all" MKIII's were black caps, and I know that's not true. In my friends basement we currently have a 10 miles from new...not restored but NEW. and it has the original exhaust....peashooters. I keep trying to buy it from the 2nd owner. the first owner from new never rode it....it still has nubs on the tires.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74111
03/25/08 11:30 pm
03/25/08 11:30 pm
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 33
Bossier City, Louisiana
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limeyscoot Offline OP
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Bossier City, Louisiana
Many thanks to all!!! I bought this scoot brand spanking in 74 and after all these years, ya think I would have learned the difference by now, but NOOOO!!! Curiousity finally got the best of me.
It Shifts On The Right???!!!
Stan

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74112
03/25/08 11:52 pm
03/25/08 11:52 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 536
Folsom, CA
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yellow_cad Offline
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Folsom, CA
What models of 850s had the cross-over exhaust? I have it on a '73 Mk II Interstate.


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74113
03/26/08 12:19 am
03/26/08 12:19 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,690
Norfolk, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by yellow_cad:
What models of 850s had the cross-over exhaust? I have it on a '73 Mk II Interstate.
All 850s were supposed to have been fitted with the balanced exhaust system, although it has been mentioned before that there could have been the odd exception.

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74114
03/26/08 12:41 am
03/26/08 12:41 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,690
Norfolk, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Comeau:
I however saw one guy claim "all" MKIII's were black caps, and I know that's not true. In my friends basement we currently have a 10 miles from new...not restored but NEW. and it has the original exhaust....peashooters.
But are you able to say without any doubt, that it actually came out of the factory packing crate like that?

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74115
03/26/08 4:48 pm
03/26/08 4:48 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 159
Belgium
7
79x100 Offline
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Belgium
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Comeau:



I however saw one guy claim "all" MKIII's were black caps, and I know that's not true. In my friends basement we currently have a 10 miles from new...not restored but NEW. and it has the original exhaust....peashooters.
Hello Dave, Do you mean me on the 'other' forum ? I'm fascinated to learn more as I have to admit that I'd probably call an ex-factory Mk3 with reverse cones and gauze air filter a "Mk2 Electric Start smile

Should we really be referring to Mk3s (Very Rare) and Mk3As (The rest)?

Is the bike a Hi-Rider variant ?

My first thought was that it might be an Importer modification. Certainly if I had lived in a market where it was possible to choose, I would have gone for that option (It's what I have done to my Mk3A)

There's no mention in the Mk3 Parts book of alternatives to the black caps and even The NV America / Berliner Mk3 brochure shows Black caps for all versions.


'39 WD16H
'75 850 Commando
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74116
03/26/08 7:15 pm
03/26/08 7:15 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,269
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline

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Hamilton, Mass. USA
Maybe it was you..
Berliner surely made their sales literature early on or before the model release.
Then very late in the model year with #333093 this bike was bought and brought home and stored. It was not used at all. I believe not even registered for the road. Then my friend Dave took posession to store for his friend the 1st owner after he let it sit outside for 1 winter.
Now Dave is trying to get the bike going and undo the damage from that one winter. I have been helping him, and it has been an experience to work on an unmolested bike and it sickens me to know this bike is/was new. not a wrench mark or messed up thread.
frown
All MKIII black roadster not hirider... black plastic air box except peashooters with the correct exhaust hanger plates.
This is one of the highest real 1975 #MKIII I have ever seen.... not counting the bankruptcy late release MKIII 76-77 ect.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74117
03/26/08 7:28 pm
03/26/08 7:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,690
Norfolk, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Comeau:
Then very late in the model year with #333093...

This is one of the highest real 1975 #MKIII I have ever seen.... not counting the bankruptcy late release MKIII 76-77 ect.
My Mk3's serial number is well over a thousand higher = 3341**, 7/75. Although I should add that it wasn't road registered until July '76, so it could have been caught up amongst the bankruptcy stock?

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74118
03/26/08 8:52 pm
03/26/08 8:52 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 536
Folsom, CA
Y
yellow_cad Offline
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Folsom, CA
Not to change the subject too drastically but what year Commandos had the John Player paint scheme? I understood that it was '74 and '75 but in the NADA value book it lists the John Player model in '73. Is this correct? What numbers could be John Player models?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74119
03/26/08 10:06 pm
03/26/08 10:06 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,690
Norfolk, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by yellow_cad:
what year Commandos had the John Player paint scheme? I understood that it was '74 and '75 but in the NADA value book it lists the John Player model in '73. Is this correct? What numbers could be John Player models?
Are you referring to faired the JPN replica models? http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/NCJPN.htm

Or the Roadster models that had the Blue/White/Red colour scheme? Those Roadster models never had any apparent connection with 'John Player'.

http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/NCRoadster.htm
Quote:
______________________________________

"The Roadster carried on into the 850 series, offered in its final form amongst other colour schemes as the Mk3 "White with Navy Stripe Blue" variant which I have seen offered for sale wrongly described as "John Player Norton", or even "John Player Replica".
____________________________________

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74120
03/26/08 10:24 pm
03/26/08 10:24 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,269
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline

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Hamilton, Mass. USA
The 74-75 white with blue/red stripe is commonly known in the US or at least locally in new england as the jps "COMMEMORATIVE" paint job and may have been a little wink for the previous JP sponsorship. Didn't the later rotary do JPS again but in black gold?

Of course we all know the JPS bike is whole different model and is not to be confused at all with the above named paint job.

where there might be confusion....there will be.


laughing laughing


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74121
03/26/08 11:18 pm
03/26/08 11:18 pm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 159
Belgium
7
79x100 Offline
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Belgium
Both the US and UK 1974 brochures refer to the new "Navy Stripe Blue" scheme and both the photos (of different machines) seem to show thick and thin blue lines. The UK 1975 brochure still refers to blue stripe but shows a thin red line and the US brochure gets it right with a corrected description.

I've never seen the double blue line scheme but if that was the original thinking then it does support the idea that there was no John Player connection

The 1972 team was tied to Player's No.6 brand, hence the white stripes on light blue. This was a cheap cigarette mostly smoked by schoolboys. For 1973 they went a bit upmarket and used the No.10 branding (fortunately for us with a decent colour scheme).

This scan looks more black but the original pack is navy blue.



The even more posh JPS brand was just used originally for Lotus Formula 1 cars in the seventies but again for Rotary Nortons.


'39 WD16H
'75 850 Commando
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74122
03/26/08 11:43 pm
03/26/08 11:43 pm
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 536
Folsom, CA
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yellow_cad Offline
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The NADA Price Guide, which may be wrong of course, has a category and gives a value to what they call a 1973 850 John Player Commando. Any idea what this looks like or are they just incorrect?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74123
03/27/08 1:21 am
03/27/08 1:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,269
Hamilton, Mass. USA
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Dave Comeau Offline

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Hamilton, Mass. USA


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74124
03/27/08 9:46 pm
03/27/08 9:46 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,690
Norfolk, UK
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Quote:
Originally posted by yellow_cad:
The NADA Price Guide, which may be wrong of course, has a category and gives a value to what they call a 1973 850 John Player Commando. Any idea what this looks like or are they just incorrect?
So, once again: http://www.nortonmotors.de/ANIL/NCJPN.htm

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74125
03/31/08 11:45 am
03/31/08 11:45 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 557
Norway, just south of Oslo
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jangg Offline
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hmm ...
You are Of Course Right, but ...

According to "some books" (true - Roy Bacon: Norton Big Twin Restoration, Mick Duckworth: Norton Commando) they say that the
- exhaust crossover (G. forbid it) was introduced approx '73. Claiming it reduced dB, due to increased outlet volume (got a deeper tone).
- in '74 the "Catalyst Blackcap" mufflers was introduced as a response to the ever more restrictive noice regulations (ironically in the US, but there it didn't came to effect before '78). They said it didn't (the Blackcap) affected the power output albeit reducing dB from say 98 to 86 ...
Also the plastic airbox was similarly introduced to reduce intake noice.
The European Community (now EU) had also spoken at that time.

The 850MkII (considered the "US Model") had the old metal airfilter and Peashooters (also w/Crosspipe) and MkIIA is a "genuine" 1974 model sporting the plastics and black caps. As well as some other minor mods (30mm intake valve dia f.ex).

Some explanation of how come the peashooters on some MkIII-s in the US, could be (just guessing) the fact that the US noice legislation was not in effect before '78 (as the LH gearshift), so the "Peashooter Option" was actually legal in '75/'76 when this was relevant.

regards
jangg


'73 Commando Basket - new aluminium cyl
'93 Ducati 900 SS

"Better lit a light than cursing the darkness"
(Confucius)
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74126
03/31/08 4:21 pm
03/31/08 4:21 pm
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Posts: 2,125
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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Oztralia
Someone mentioned a 1973 850.
This would be an 850 Mk1 model ?

Only subtle visible differences to the later Mk2 model - silver cylinders and the little plastic extension on the end of the chainguard.

The silver paint was a bit prone to rust, so once the owner has had the cylinders done in black, they are often called a Mk2.

More Mk1 around than you'd think... ?

Opethiselps.

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74127
03/31/08 6:25 pm
03/31/08 6:25 pm
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Posts: 118
Minneapolis
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I've always considered my '73 850 #300069 to be a MKI.

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74128
04/01/08 6:15 am
04/01/08 6:15 am
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Posts: 536
Folsom, CA
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yellow_cad Offline
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Folsom, CA
Does anyone know the serial number break between Mk I and Mk II?


Jim

1970 Triumph Bonneville
1973 Commando Interstate
1971 OSSA MAR
Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74129
04/01/08 2:56 pm
04/01/08 2:56 pm
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Minneapolis
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Minneapolis
Bacons book doesn't break it down that I can see, though the first 850's were IA's. Then in '74 he says Roadster and Interstate Mk I's became MK IIA's, MK IA's continuing. Hmm..

Re: 74 850 MKII or MKIIA #74130
04/01/08 5:42 pm
04/01/08 5:42 pm
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Posts: 162
FRANCE- DINARD -BRITTANY
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Hi there.According to one database I have found the first MK1 n 300.000 appear in april 1973, then MK1A in september 1973 n306.591 in Europe,and "first" MK 2A should be n307.311 at the first beginning of 74. My 2 cents........

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