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#73865 - 03/09/08 4:13 pm wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
I searched several posts on wheel lacing on this and general british board and didn't find much help.
I am in the process of lacing up wheels for 4 different bikes(nortons). I am trying to use new CWC and Devon rims on 2 of these.
I'm getting the feeling that wheels are second only to exhaust systems for questionable quality and proper fit(dimpling accuracy). The angles of the piercings are different from the original is in some cases more than trivial and I am not happy with the results.
Anyone that can really recommend a manufacturer source that knows what they are doing?


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
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#73866 - 03/09/08 4:26 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,153
Swan Online content
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Swan  Online Content

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,153
Winona, MN
Dave,

Try this section on lacing from the SOHC Honda forum site:http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=368.0.

Buchanan Spoke and Rim are good, expensive and worth the price.www.buchananspokes.com.

I bought shouldered alloy rims and spoke kits from them for BSA and Triumph hubs and they laced up easily and beautifully.

They offer a variety of rims and spoke kits for many types of hubs and offer lacing and truing service too.

I am sure other members will attest to Buchanan's products, price and service.


1966 Triton
1962 BSA DBD34 Gold Star
1966 Triumph Bonneville
#73867 - 03/09/08 4:33 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,401
D.Bachtel Online content
BritBike Forum member
D.Bachtel  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,401
SLO County, CA
Buchanans Dave, they know spoked wheels and have all the charts, lists and applications.

I've never received anything "wrong" from them.
Lacing your own is a "good" thing.

Don in Nipomo bigt


1956 Zundapp KS601EL
1960 Greeves Scottish/Hawkstone Velorex 560
1963 BSA Gold Star Spitfire
1964 Triumph T20SM
1965 BSA C15T
1966 BSA VE
1968 Bonham Tote Gote
1969 BSA VS
1970 BSA A65L (with a "Y")
1972 Husqvarna 450 WR
1986 Yamaha TT 225
1987 BMW K75C
#73868 - 03/09/08 4:40 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,469
Norfolk, UK
Commando wheel build info: http://www.nocnsw.org.au/spokes.html


I rebuilt my T160 front wheel with a CWC rim, and the dimple drillings were correct on that.

Which types of wheels are you building? Not all disc front wheels are the same, the 850 Mk3 has a different spoke pattern (Dunlop MC288 rim) and the standard rear Mk3 rim (Dunlop MC289) has a 3x1 dimple pattern.

#73869 - 03/09/08 5:09 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Not even getting into the disc wheel or rear MKIII wheel yet. mad

8" full width norton brake/hubs.
for example.
I have trouble that on some assemblies the RH spokes cross to the LH dimples of the wheels and then on others the RH spokes cross to RH dimples.

If some creative dimpler/piercer crosses over to the dark side.... and uses the same original angle but on the wrong side of dimple, the spoke angle will be off.

The nipple is not coming out of the center of the hole but tucked up tight to the side.
Then you have the stupid spoke bend coming out of the nipples.

With a good rim I have no problems at all.

Comparing the rims visually you can see the piercing is at a different angle on the dimples. Some 10 set groups OK and some worse than others.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#73870 - 03/09/08 5:41 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
The hub-wheel list consists of:

1. MKIII rear disc-devon MC289 marginally acceptable. buchanian SS spokes

2. Commando front disc-19" devon MC288 appears it would work better on 8" FW hub. buchanian SS spokes- the old Dunlop rim is a MC275 on original rim with correct angles. HUGE difference here.

3. Atlas 8" (bolt on) rear hub- 18" CWC rim - mongrel 9G SS spokes

4. Atlas front 8" drum- 19" CWC rim MB41 pattern-Waldridge sourced 9G economy unbutted (CWC spokes?)

5. commando Dunstall dual disc hub- rim 19" borrani- CWC SS unbutted spokes.

6. commando Dunstall 8"(norton)cush rear hub- 19" borranni rim conventional X2 pattern- CWC butted SS spokes

7. Dunstall Atlas supplied Rickman single disc hub- rim 19" Borrani- CWC butted SS spokes.

8. Dunstall Atlas 8"(bolt on) rear hub-rim 19" unmarked but possibly Borrani X1 pattern-CWC butted SS spokes.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#73871 - 03/09/08 6:25 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 398
highway Offline
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highway  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 398
hamilton on. can.
I tried Devon rims for the first time last week. (71 Triumph) Rear was fine, Holes for the front left side were way off, un-usable,
I like the economy rims,(Radelli) accurate drilling, good weld and minium runout, though the chrome prep isn't as good. I'd rather have an accurate rim than concours finish.
Wheel lacing comes easy to some and impossible to others, especially when one is self taught. One should start out lacing rims with equal length spokes and rim centered with hub. Then moving on to wheels with slight "dish" to one side, before tackling more difficult ones like a commmando disc wheel. Rick

#73872 - 03/10/08 1:08 am Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 124
Brithit Offline
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Brithit  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 124
Nebraska, jealous?
Hi Dave,

About five years ago, I laced up a 1958 TR6 front and rear with CWC chrome rims. This worked out fine, but I found I may have been in the minority. Since then, I've run into a number of people who have used these rims, and had complaints, but it was mostly about plating problems, not the lacing. I recently laced a alloy Excel rim to the front of my '59 Velo along with Buchanan spokes. It trued up as nicely as any wheel I've ever done. When (if) I ever get around to doing some alloys for either of my Nortons, that will be the way I go, based on that good experience. Good luck!


Don W.

'69 Trident - U.S. Variant
Nortons: '72 Combat ' 75 Interstate
'59 Velocette Venom Clubman
#73873 - 03/10/08 6:15 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,462
HawaiianTiger Online content
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HawaiianTiger  Online Content

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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,462
Maui Hawaii
My experience with CWC premium chrome steel rims is that they have poor quality control when it comes to the actual "roundness" concept. When attempting to true the wheel, very different results were obtained when trueing from the left side as opposed to the right. The best that could be obtained was a compromise with at least 3/16" of kick on either side. Not very nice. My supplier has since decided to try Devon rims in the hopes that quality will be higher in line with their higher price. I have always used Buchannan's spokes. That would be about 30 years or so now.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
#73874 - 03/11/08 2:50 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Coco Offline
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Coco  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 358
Regina Sk, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Brithit:
Hi Dave,

About five years ago, I laced up a 1958 TR6 front and rear with CWC chrome rims. This worked out fine, but I found I may have been in the minority. Since then, I've run into a number of people who have used these rims, and had complaints, but it was mostly about plating problems, not the lacing. I recently laced a alloy Excel rim to the front of my '59 Velo along with Buchanan spokes. It trued up as nicely as any wheel I've ever done. When (if) I ever get around to doing some alloys for either of my Nortons, that will be the way I go, based on that good experience. Good luck!
I had Buchanan lace up some Excel rims for me and they are down right beautiful rims. Everything was spot on. I've also heard a few horror stories about Akront and Morad rims not being so perfect as well.


Colin
--------------------------
1975 MKIII Norton Commando
'73/'70 Triumph 750 chop in the works
#73876 - 03/11/08 5:24 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 234
Ron Leisner Offline
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Ron Leisner  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 234
Ohio
I have laced a set of Akront flangeless with CWC stainless spokes on a Dunstall double disc front and Mk3 disc brake rear wheel with absolutely no problem. I tried to lace a set of Radaelli chrome rims (Domiracer) on a Mk3 a few years ago with Buchanan spokes and the welded seam was so flat that the front rim could not be trued no matter what. We wound up re-chroming the original Dunlop and it laced like a dream. When it was time to lace the front and rear wheels last month for my Interstate, I re-chromed the original rear rim and found a NOS for the front. Again, using Buchanan spokes.

I have never heard a complaint about Buchanan on rim drilling. I assume that CWC does the drilling on the Devon rims they sell, so the problem may be with CWC rather than Devon.

Ron L


Ron L
1973 MkV 750 Roadster
1974 850 Interstate
1975 850 Cafe Racer
1968 750 Fastback
1967 P11
1969 Ranger 750
#73877 - 03/11/08 5:31 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,648
raf940 Offline
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raf940  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,648
gastonia nc
regarding spoke patterns..eBay is good for something...if you lack a photo of your own of a particular spoke pattern.....just look for a bike of that type for sale with those multiple enlarged photos from different angles.......for instance there have been several BSA Spitfires for sale recently with excellent closeups of the wheels...


1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando project
#73878 - 03/11/08 6:53 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
1. OK I get it that Buchanan does good alloy wheels. To late for this batch of wheels, besides I wanted chrome/steel on the two stock bikes.

2. If it is not well known, rims are "pierced"(punched) and not drilled. To date I do not recall ever seeing a "drilled" rim.

3. So far lacing the wheel has not presented any problem at all in recognising the R&L side pattern of even the norton front disc that IS handed and uses 4 different spokes. The buchanan and CWC spoke sets seem to be very capable of being used on a OEM rim and hub.
My perception of the defects is entirely the position and angle of the peircing on the dimple that is so totally unrecognisable as to not be laceable with the conventional supplied spoke set.

4. I know of no connection between CWC and Devon, or them using each others products or services.
Anyone KNOW different?

5.FWIW the CWC are about 4.5lbs and the Devon is about 5.5lbs. both WM2-19.

6. Off list emails to me also support my feeling of severe lack of mechanical quality of both suppliers STEEL (and stainless) wheels.

7. The supplier of the Devon wheels is going to take back the pair of MKIII rims. To bad, the rear was OK.

8. I will probably eat the CWC rim #4. I will try to press it a bit more round before I toss it in the can. As supplied, it is over .080" out of round. In one sector the nipples are bottomed out(screwed in all the way) and they don't even touch the rim. In trying to bow the rim out in that direction the spokes I am tightening feel like they will strip before I get the rim out that far to make the opposing nipples touch.....


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#73879 - 03/11/08 9:18 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
Boston, Massachusetts
Central Wheel has NO connection with Devon!

After market rims come in two variants: Generic and specific.
Generic rims will fit more than one bike often requiring different spoke pattern and spoke lengths. The dimpling and piercing is often slightly different than original. Until about ten years ago this is all you could buy from the UK.

Specific rims are made to mimic the original dimpling and piercing. These rims from CWC come with the o.e.m. part number and distributor’s name on the inside of the rim. For example 37-1230 British Cycle Supply. Devon also does this, but the part number is on the box. So it depends upon the philosophy of the person you are buying the rim from whether you get a Generic or Specific rim. The spokes are more than a bit of a bother, as there are sets around from CWC for Generic and Specific lacing. One should measure the old spokes and compare with the new ones before you set out to lace the wheel.

The range of Specific rims came about when CWC finally realized that we (USA) are not a country of wheel builders, but rim replacers. We also have this odd requirement that the spoke pattern should match the original… something, it seems, isn’t such a big deal in the UK. Especially when you can produce Generic rims cheaper. Seeing that nearly everyone in the factory laced and trued wheels at one time in their factory career, the UK seems to have a wheel builder on every corner.

On some Specific rims, such as some of the Norton rear disc rims CWC (and Devon upon request), they have changed the dimpling to a 3 by 1 dimpling. I am sure there are some of the original dimple pattern on dealer’s shelves – so you could get either type). This makes the wheel stronger and MUCH easier to set, and hold the rim offset (This is standard dimpling on Triumph T140 rear disc wheels). These rims typically use standard spoke kits.

To make things easier we have found that both the CWC and Devon Specific rims will spoke up with the Standard Buchanan kits (albeit that you need them to set up the kit with the proper nipple - the standard kit comes with .281" nipples (Japanese rims) - British rims are pierced .250' and .300").

So now to offend everyone and I have put on my flame proof suit. Also keep in mind that I have written several specific articles on lacing and truing both Norton and Triumph wheels for Vintage Bike. I have spent my life encourage people to do their own work. BUT, just because you have a spoke wrench, a new rim and some new spokes it does not make you a wheel builder.

When I here that, “I broke spokes trying to true a wheel” it makes me cringe… Let me be the first to tell you that if you are breaking spokes truing wheels you should step away from wheel building and do some thinking. One thought that comes to my mind is taking the pile of bits to a wheel builder. The wheel builder’s mantra is loosen first… not tighten until the spoke breaks off at the threads.

I have laced and trued many hundreds of wheels in the past 49 years I have been in this business. My first job in the bike business was for Pete Andrews (Andrew’s Motorcycle Sales in Boston MA) who had worked for Indian in the wheel department. One of my first jobs was learning to lace and true Indian wheels. Pete would lace and true an Indian wheel in the time it took him to smoke a cigarette. I have also laced and trued a couple hundred CWC and several Devon rims. I have not found one that would not true under .020.” (most list the spec for run out at .060”). This included rims that were returned by dealers who believed otherwise. The rim should be running true before you start tightening the nipples!
John

Disclaimer I do distribute both of these brand (and others) rims and Buchanan spokes.


#73880 - 03/11/08 9:32 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 241
tg4360 Offline
BritBike Forum member
tg4360  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 241
Richmond, VA
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm not a wheel builder) but it looks to me like that spoke going into the hole the wrong way will work harden itself against that sharp shoulder it's hitting. I suspect that they should only be going in from outside in.

Perhaps there's a starting point at the start of lacing that would keep the spokes from crossing incorrectly so that you can lace them all from the outside.

TG


'68 B25 Starfire (single)
'72 A65 Thunderbolt (twin (I'm sensing a pattern here..))
'78 XS750 Triple (Because I just can't get my hands on
a Rocket Three...)
'87 K100GS (four banger (Because NVT gave up too quick..)
#73881 - 03/11/08 10:45 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 221
Jim Clausen Offline
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Jim Clausen  Offline
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Posts: 221
Port St. John, FL USA
Well spoken, John.

One thing I always keep in mind, you'll never beat another at his/her trade.


It seems there are 40 ways to go wrong when lacing a Norton rim.

#73882 - 03/11/08 11:12 pm Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
Boston, Massachusetts
TG

Having all of the spokes on the inside requires special rim dimpling and in this case would make a weaker wheel. The strongest wheel would have all the spokes at a 45° angle and moving all of the spokes to the inside of this hub would decrease the angle and strength of the wheel. Also having one set on the outside and the other on the inside allows them to pass each other without interferening with each other. This gets more difficult/important as the rim gets smaller and hub gets bigger.

The type of "Work Hardening" you to refer to is what you get when you bend and re-bend a piece of steel. If the spokes are tensioned properly, stretched beyond the point where they would stretch or bend, from the load put on them by the weight of the motorcycle during use, they will not "work harden"

Loose spokes lead to broken spokes and once one breaks all are suspect and should be replaced. This is why they tension spokes.

If the hub was made from steel, and not aluminum, the edge of the hole could make a mark on the spoke and create a "stress riser." If the spoke was not tensioned properly and the spoke started to work harded then the failure might just start at that point. Notice that the aluminum hub has deformed from the last set of spokes. Typically, the aluminum is too soft to damage the steel spoke and cause such a stress riser.


#73883 - 03/12/08 1:47 am Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Dave Comeau Offline
Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,253
Hamilton, Mass. USA
ON A FACTORY RIM norton front disc MC275
The crossing spokes are about 13º both forward and aft of the axle/rim axis for both the disc and nondisc side.

I've made some measurements of the Devon MC288 wheel and it's apparent spoke angles for the norton disc wheel. Now when you place the niples and spoke in the devon rim it wants to lay at 26º for one of each same side crossing set. The spoke doesn't want to come anywhere near the hub. Therefore if you lace the hub/rim and start to do any tightening at all...only one slight edge of the nipple touches the rim in the dimple the other side is way up in the air...also the nipple is sucked up tight to the edge of the hole and the spoke is up solid to the side of the nipple. The piercing is up against the edge of the dimple whereas with the OEM rim the piercing edge is 1/2 of the way up the dimple.

I am not all that bothered by some wheels using cross over pattern...IE right spokes crossing to left dimples and left to right dimples. Then others like jap and some british do not cross over but use the closer side to lace into. But darn shouldn't the piercings show that?

laughing


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
#73884 - 03/12/08 2:09 am Re: wheel lacing  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
John Healy Online content
John Healy  Online Content


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,971
Boston, Massachusetts
Dave did it cross your mind that you don't have the right rim?



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